What does ATC do that irks you?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does ATC do that irks you?
Hello everyone,
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so here it is and it is repeated on the D and G Reporting Points forum.
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated. The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so here it is and it is repeated on the D and G Reporting Points forum.
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated. The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: All over the place for work
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have only ever been irked by the occasional (hmmm..excuse me for saying this Conway sinc your a military bloke yourself...no disrespect at all)...military controller who holds you up for no reason at all or they withhold a clearance 20 odd nm of Williamtown cause their is a Hornet on a 3 nm final for the runway...come on guys. A few military controllers have been too rigid and a little too serious in the whole 'military thing' from time to time.
Darwin seems to have a lot of trainees there who stuff you about, though that said I found the guys and girls down Nowra way to be nothing but consummate professionals and ever so willing to help...they even delayed a Seahawk once so I could land before bad weather hammered me and my light helicopter working on a fire once...I may have even been the guy that delayed you in Townsville that time...tongue in cheek. Whoops!!!
Aside from those minor annoyances, I just hate the odd sarcastic remark from controllers who jump on a mistake. Talking on a radio is but one of our duties as a pilots and some do it better and worse then others. At the end of the day, ATC guys talk on a radio as their bread and butter so they should be close to perfect at what they do...and most are. Overall, I give a big thumbs up to these guys...they do a great job under trying circumstances.
Never really had any problems elsewhere when I have flown overseas, though the ones I have had are more related drunken bar incidents...not really CRM stuff.
Darwin seems to have a lot of trainees there who stuff you about, though that said I found the guys and girls down Nowra way to be nothing but consummate professionals and ever so willing to help...they even delayed a Seahawk once so I could land before bad weather hammered me and my light helicopter working on a fire once...I may have even been the guy that delayed you in Townsville that time...tongue in cheek. Whoops!!!
Aside from those minor annoyances, I just hate the odd sarcastic remark from controllers who jump on a mistake. Talking on a radio is but one of our duties as a pilots and some do it better and worse then others. At the end of the day, ATC guys talk on a radio as their bread and butter so they should be close to perfect at what they do...and most are. Overall, I give a big thumbs up to these guys...they do a great job under trying circumstances.
Never really had any problems elsewhere when I have flown overseas, though the ones I have had are more related drunken bar incidents...not really CRM stuff.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Somewhere, Over the Rainbow
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In similar likings to RW Jack -- I've had some interesting experiences with military controllers. US-Based mil towers tend to use Civillian Contractors almost exclusively, and I rarely ran into beef with them... competent and professional. On the flip side, when you go to a not-so-stateside place of work, the military puts their controllers back in the saddle with almost zero experience from their stateside time. Maybe its not that way in the entire Military, but for the Army, it seems to be the case.
While deployed, we basically reasoned that there were two types of controllers... the ones who couldn't talk very well but tended to get things right (eventually), and the ones that talked like a pro but tended to screw things up. One "dark and stormy" night on a flight to a neighboring airfield, the controller very cooly granted us permission to back taxi up the runway from the hospital pad to the gas station... we thought we had heard inbound traffic announce themselves earlier but figured they were elsewhere and we trusted the controller. 3/4 the way back up the runway we saw landing lights come on about 1/2km out and dead in front of us... a very quick sidestep to the center sod and we all got our hands ready to wave at the 2 blackhawks that went roaring down the approach end. The controller apparently knew we were back taxiing, and knew they were on short final, but didn't realize we would eventually end up converging? A quick "sorry bout that" and he was back on to his normal high speed professional sounding banter. Guess he just had a brain fart.
-Mike
While deployed, we basically reasoned that there were two types of controllers... the ones who couldn't talk very well but tended to get things right (eventually), and the ones that talked like a pro but tended to screw things up. One "dark and stormy" night on a flight to a neighboring airfield, the controller very cooly granted us permission to back taxi up the runway from the hospital pad to the gas station... we thought we had heard inbound traffic announce themselves earlier but figured they were elsewhere and we trusted the controller. 3/4 the way back up the runway we saw landing lights come on about 1/2km out and dead in front of us... a very quick sidestep to the center sod and we all got our hands ready to wave at the 2 blackhawks that went roaring down the approach end. The controller apparently knew we were back taxiing, and knew they were on short final, but didn't realize we would eventually end up converging? A quick "sorry bout that" and he was back on to his normal high speed professional sounding banter. Guess he just had a brain fart.
-Mike
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearing a single pilot aircraft to air taxi.
THEN giving you the transponder code while you are in the air taxi...
(THEN getting annoyed the next time you ask for it on the ground to avoid the same problem)
h-r
THEN giving you the transponder code while you are in the air taxi...
(THEN getting annoyed the next time you ask for it on the ground to avoid the same problem)
h-r
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 429 Likes
on
226 Posts
Giving a clearance and in the same transmission asking a question. Shouldn't happen but it does.
The workload in a helicopter can be just as frenetic as in a fixed wing - so I wish they wouldn't talk to us as we are lifting or in the initial climb. Having flown both FW and rotary, it doesn't seem to happen to FW pilots.
The workload in a helicopter can be just as frenetic as in a fixed wing - so I wish they wouldn't talk to us as we are lifting or in the initial climb. Having flown both FW and rotary, it doesn't seem to happen to FW pilots.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Germany
Age: 53
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Helicopter Redeye
That's my favourite as well. Air taxiing in a strong tailwind I was asked to switch off the transponder. My reply:"Will switch it off when reaching apron" (50 m to go). Approx. 3 sec. later "Can't you switch it off now, you are only air taxiing".
That's my favourite as well. Air taxiing in a strong tailwind I was asked to switch off the transponder. My reply:"Will switch it off when reaching apron" (50 m to go). Approx. 3 sec. later "Can't you switch it off now, you are only air taxiing".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Point
Thanks guys,
keep 'em coming.
The point about having to change transponder to STBY whilst air taxiing in a single-pilot helicopter (I do powerline patrols in an MD500 too) is a good one and I hope any ATC personnel who may be reading this thread will understand how difficult it is to keep both hands and feet on the controls and reach down and change a frequency, rotate a knob, etc.
By the same token, however, one of the things I do is when on final approach to the runway/'H' and the aircraft is still stable with forward airspeed, I take a second to switch my transponder to standby before I start my hover and have to concentrate on air taxiing, watching for other traffic, being wary of my downwash whilst manouevering, etc. Unfortunately, that doesn't help when a frequency change is required after arrival and whilst air taxiing. That IS a handful.
We can all learn from each other... so please let 'em rip. This is great stuff!
keep 'em coming.
The point about having to change transponder to STBY whilst air taxiing in a single-pilot helicopter (I do powerline patrols in an MD500 too) is a good one and I hope any ATC personnel who may be reading this thread will understand how difficult it is to keep both hands and feet on the controls and reach down and change a frequency, rotate a knob, etc.
By the same token, however, one of the things I do is when on final approach to the runway/'H' and the aircraft is still stable with forward airspeed, I take a second to switch my transponder to standby before I start my hover and have to concentrate on air taxiing, watching for other traffic, being wary of my downwash whilst manouevering, etc. Unfortunately, that doesn't help when a frequency change is required after arrival and whilst air taxiing. That IS a handful.
We can all learn from each other... so please let 'em rip. This is great stuff!
As a frequent user of Sydney KSA, I have found that there are 2 types of controllers - those who understand helicopters, and the rest. Sort of like the A Team and the B Team.
The As are terrific, issuing clearances that expedite things along, and take advantage of the flexibility of the choppers. The Bs will hold me outside the zone, and although such a hold might comply with the strictest of applications of the rules, it is not necessary, and is frustrating to say the least.
I have spoken to some of these fellas on the phone, and even they admit that there are As and Bs. I once chipped a B after landing, asking why a particular hold and approach to a different landing site was specified. I got my reply on departure, when he said "Because I can" and ever since then, whenever that controller has been on duty, I have been held outside the zone. Because he can, and just to prove to me that he is the boss.
Other than this controller, I usually have no problems with ATC. Most are happy to see a helo that can get out of the way faster than the others.
The As are terrific, issuing clearances that expedite things along, and take advantage of the flexibility of the choppers. The Bs will hold me outside the zone, and although such a hold might comply with the strictest of applications of the rules, it is not necessary, and is frustrating to say the least.
I have spoken to some of these fellas on the phone, and even they admit that there are As and Bs. I once chipped a B after landing, asking why a particular hold and approach to a different landing site was specified. I got my reply on departure, when he said "Because I can" and ever since then, whenever that controller has been on duty, I have been held outside the zone. Because he can, and just to prove to me that he is the boss.
Other than this controller, I usually have no problems with ATC. Most are happy to see a helo that can get out of the way faster than the others.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Here and there
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A certain radio operator (nicknamed 'the fat controller'!) at a nearby small airfield with an air-to-ground station who seems to believe that he can exercise the privilidges of a fully-qualified ATCO. Said operator also seems to feel the need to jam up the already busy frequency with irrelevant nonsense, making it extremely difficult for any aircraft to get a transmission in sideways 
Crazy Scandihooligan
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Damn, some mountain goat is nibbling my ear ;-)
Age: 52
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is annoying is when you come to an airport where the traffic is hardly busy, but the ATC ssems to think it is London Heathrow sometimes.
Example; I air taxied in on TWR Freq, did the turnaround.Had to shut down and restart after 30 mins, No one around, tumbleweeds blowing accross the field.
Me: Tower Hi again, Helicopter LN-OPE, request engine and rotor start"
Twr: Contact Ground please.
Me: Gnd, Engine and rotor start please
Gnd: (same Guy ) Ok start approved, contact tower now........
Just to be completely anal. The whole transaction should take less than 30 secs and now i have to change frequencies, tart around with the start up and increase my workload, because the ATC person has a weed up their arse about procedures at that specific airport...
Not that it is a problem multi tasking, but wouldn't it be great if we all got along? Another one that makes me boil is the necessity to hold when a 737 is on 8 mile final and that it takes 5 mins to land, when i can see the place i want to land is about 800 ft away and would take less than a minute to get to. Then having waited in the hold for 5 minutes, having to wait another 3 for wake turbulence to settle (That bit i do understand and respect).
Like Ascend Charlie said, there are helicopter friendly controllers and non-helicopter friendly controllers, i guess you have a 50-50 chance of getting an A controller on that particular day.
MD
Example; I air taxied in on TWR Freq, did the turnaround.Had to shut down and restart after 30 mins, No one around, tumbleweeds blowing accross the field.
Me: Tower Hi again, Helicopter LN-OPE, request engine and rotor start"
Twr: Contact Ground please.
Me: Gnd, Engine and rotor start please
Gnd: (same Guy
) Ok start approved, contact tower now........Just to be completely anal. The whole transaction should take less than 30 secs and now i have to change frequencies, tart around with the start up and increase my workload, because the ATC person has a weed up their arse about procedures at that specific airport...
Not that it is a problem multi tasking, but wouldn't it be great if we all got along? Another one that makes me boil is the necessity to hold when a 737 is on 8 mile final and that it takes 5 mins to land, when i can see the place i want to land is about 800 ft away and would take less than a minute to get to. Then having waited in the hold for 5 minutes, having to wait another 3 for wake turbulence to settle (That bit i do understand and respect).
Like Ascend Charlie said, there are helicopter friendly controllers and non-helicopter friendly controllers, i guess you have a 50-50 chance of getting an A controller on that particular day.
MD
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me: Tower Hi again, Helicopter LN-OPE, request engine and rotor start"
Twr: Contact Ground please.
Me: Gnd, Engine and rotor start please
Gnd: (same Guy ) Ok start approved, contact tower now........
Twr: Contact Ground please.
Me: Gnd, Engine and rotor start please
Gnd: (same Guy ) Ok start approved, contact tower now........
Norway I presume?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Playing in the sand
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only time I can remember being really frustrated with a controller was when I was on with Daytona App and the guy was having a private conversation with another pilot.(Apparently they trained at the same flight school.)
and I quote....."is that old chevy still sitting in the back of the hangar"
and I quote....."is that old chevy still sitting in the back of the hangar"
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Murica.
Age: 45
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have had many examples, but here's two.
1.
Sitting on the ramp, next to the active runway. Boeing 747 taxiies down the runway past me, backtracking for take off. I ask for takeoff behind the 747 after he has passed me and is well clear. I have to cross the active on the take off. I get told to hold because of aircraft on the runway. So I wait for 7-10 minutes while the 747 taxiies down, turns around...does some checks and then takes off. As the airplane roars past me on the runway, mainwheels just lifting off tower clears me to take off behind, cross the active and expedite!!!
When I told him no, I will wait until the vortices settle down he asked me to give him a call on the land line. Cue long talk about how we helicopter pilots hold up traffic and cause confusion.
2.
Different place.
sitting in a grassy area off the main apron that we use as long term parking, ask tower for repositioning to the apron....all of about 35ft...to go to the pax loading area.
"You are cleared to lift, take off direct, maintain VFR, winds are 330 less than 5, QNH 1013, report airborne"
So I pick it up in a hover and report airborne, and he comes back with my take off time as 22min past the hour.
I set it down when I reach the apron and he goes "Landing time..uh..22..have a nice day."
a bit overkill???
1.
Sitting on the ramp, next to the active runway. Boeing 747 taxiies down the runway past me, backtracking for take off. I ask for takeoff behind the 747 after he has passed me and is well clear. I have to cross the active on the take off. I get told to hold because of aircraft on the runway. So I wait for 7-10 minutes while the 747 taxiies down, turns around...does some checks and then takes off. As the airplane roars past me on the runway, mainwheels just lifting off tower clears me to take off behind, cross the active and expedite!!!
When I told him no, I will wait until the vortices settle down he asked me to give him a call on the land line. Cue long talk about how we helicopter pilots hold up traffic and cause confusion.
2.
Different place.
sitting in a grassy area off the main apron that we use as long term parking, ask tower for repositioning to the apron....all of about 35ft...to go to the pax loading area.
"You are cleared to lift, take off direct, maintain VFR, winds are 330 less than 5, QNH 1013, report airborne"
So I pick it up in a hover and report airborne, and he comes back with my take off time as 22min past the hour.
I set it down when I reach the apron and he goes "Landing time..uh..22..have a nice day."
a bit overkill???
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia PA
Age: 73
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Let me ask - what sort of training about helicopters do ATC people get? I'll bet there is little to none in most countries.
Has anyone ever thought to get some helicopter specific training included? Sort of things to be covered would include - single pilot workload when hovering, capabilities with respect to wind, etc. I'm sure there are a lot of things to add to the list.
How about articles in ATC specific magazines? Can anyone point to articles written by helicopter pilots for those magazines?
As for controllers who get ideas beyond their station - aren't there ways to report that? In the UK, I know there used to be a magazine that had all sorts of neat anonymous reports related to flying. Is it still around, and does anyone ever think of writing up a controller who is not only causing undue delays to your flight, and making you burn more fuel (think green!) and also pushing up your blood pressure (which is definitely not good for flight safety).
Has anyone ever thought to get some helicopter specific training included? Sort of things to be covered would include - single pilot workload when hovering, capabilities with respect to wind, etc. I'm sure there are a lot of things to add to the list.
How about articles in ATC specific magazines? Can anyone point to articles written by helicopter pilots for those magazines?
As for controllers who get ideas beyond their station - aren't there ways to report that? In the UK, I know there used to be a magazine that had all sorts of neat anonymous reports related to flying. Is it still around, and does anyone ever think of writing up a controller who is not only causing undue delays to your flight, and making you burn more fuel (think green!) and also pushing up your blood pressure (which is definitely not good for flight safety).
The tower at my home base was a "training" Tower for our region. Every new batch of fledgling controllers were provided a helicopter flight in, over, around, and below the airfield. The young pretty female controllers got multiple rides if wanted. Ah, I digress. As a result our controllers quickly learned about helicopters and when they got checked to go on their own or moved to other airfields....the call sign of the aircraft alone was enough to get the kind of clearances we dream about.
Usually Takeoff clearances went like this...07C...cleared to depart report clear of the zone. Landing clearances went like this....07C cleared to land, call when down.
The best one ever was when I found myself popping out of the fog,mist, and murk at an airfield in the Seattle area which had lots of brand new shiny Boeing jets set on the ramp. Like in the middle of the airfield almost to the taxi-way between the highway and the runway close I mean all the while thinking I was past the airfield and was safe to head down the hill looking for visibility.
Hurriedly, I tuned up the Tower Freq....to hear those lovely words...."07C is cleared out of the xxxxx control zone Special VFR, maintain VMC and report VFR or leaving the control zone.....how you been Sasless?"
ATC folks can be human too!
Usually Takeoff clearances went like this...07C...cleared to depart report clear of the zone. Landing clearances went like this....07C cleared to land, call when down.
The best one ever was when I found myself popping out of the fog,mist, and murk at an airfield in the Seattle area which had lots of brand new shiny Boeing jets set on the ramp. Like in the middle of the airfield almost to the taxi-way between the highway and the runway close I mean all the while thinking I was past the airfield and was safe to head down the hill looking for visibility.
Hurriedly, I tuned up the Tower Freq....to hear those lovely words...."07C is cleared out of the xxxxx control zone Special VFR, maintain VMC and report VFR or leaving the control zone.....how you been Sasless?"
ATC folks can be human too!
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From here the view is lovely
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK mil controllers who make us do everything on QFE when the rest of the world is on QNH.
Major airports who insist on us taxying in a line of 747s to use 10,000 of concrete we don't need.
Once sat on the jumpseat of a 747 at LHR watching a 355 at the HAP. the 355 suddenly dipped a couple of feet in the hover, "why do they always do that?" asked the driver, "ah, He's just changed from ground to tower" Was my response.
God bless LHR. Appallingly busy and always manage to get us in and out in rapid time.
Major airports who insist on us taxying in a line of 747s to use 10,000 of concrete we don't need.
Once sat on the jumpseat of a 747 at LHR watching a 355 at the HAP. the 355 suddenly dipped a couple of feet in the hover, "why do they always do that?" asked the driver, "ah, He's just changed from ground to tower" Was my response.
God bless LHR. Appallingly busy and always manage to get us in and out in rapid time.
How about when a GA field asks you to join standard overhead, even though your at 500' agl inbound to them and have told them that. Always seems sensible to me to have to climb overhead then descend again when helicopters are quite capable of joining low level.
MD900, quote "Not that it is a problem multi tasking, but wouldn't it be great if we all got along? Another one that makes me boil is the necessity to hold when a 737 is on 8 mile final and that it takes 5 mins to land, when i can see the place i want to land is about 800 ft away and would take less than a minute to get to. Then having waited in the hold for 5 minutes, having to wait another 3 for wake turbulence to settle (That bit i do understand and respect)." unqoute
I just have to ask, you really been put in a hold for 5 minutes in a helicopter? Bet there's not many on here done that!!
MD900, quote "Not that it is a problem multi tasking, but wouldn't it be great if we all got along? Another one that makes me boil is the necessity to hold when a 737 is on 8 mile final and that it takes 5 mins to land, when i can see the place i want to land is about 800 ft away and would take less than a minute to get to. Then having waited in the hold for 5 minutes, having to wait another 3 for wake turbulence to settle (That bit i do understand and respect)." unqoute
I just have to ask, you really been put in a hold for 5 minutes in a helicopter? Bet there's not many on here done that!!