AAIB Bulletin: Morecambe Bay
I think the main purpose of publishing the preliminary report is to reduce speculation and rumourmongering by stating what happened and eliminating certain causes - the main one being major structural or component failure.
This is done partly to keep all the other 365 crews and pax happy that there is not a serious fault with the aircraft so that they can keep flying it without fear. If you were Eurocopter, you would want to show as quickly as possible that your aircraft is safe and I suspect that some pressure is applied from industry onto the CAA in these cases.
There are some other safety equipment issues that could have been included in the preliminary report but I will wait for the full report before discussing them.
This is done partly to keep all the other 365 crews and pax happy that there is not a serious fault with the aircraft so that they can keep flying it without fear. If you were Eurocopter, you would want to show as quickly as possible that your aircraft is safe and I suspect that some pressure is applied from industry onto the CAA in these cases.
There are some other safety equipment issues that could have been included in the preliminary report but I will wait for the full report before discussing them.
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I think I've been in aviation a lot longer than most of you - conjecture re accidents has been around for as long as accidents themselves. I concur with TC. The mouse button will allow you to avoid this thread Whirly but if you venture in your brain will allow you to discount what you don't agree with - threatening TC with violence is most un-PC!!
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E86
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It's an expression luv! The whole point of the expression is that it means I DON'T have the freedom if it means trampling over someone else's freedoms.My concern, as I mentioned before, is that if there is any mud-slinging (as sometimes these things can degenerate), then mud sticks and I don't think it's unreasonable to wait for a final report to prevent such rumour-mongering. If a couple of people ask one to refrain from something, then I would respect their wishes. That's not necessarily being PC, it's being polite!
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Whirls (with an "S")
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I'm with TC (an a few others whose names I've forgotten already) on this.
Let's be realistic. You will NOT stop people wondering what happened. And it's normal for them to share those speculations with fellow aviators. So they'll post them. Now, look back at other threads where this has happened. The original speculating would probably have been long forgotten. But what usually happens is that someone says the post shouldn't have been made, someone else argues for free speech, a third person wades in and demands that all speculation stop, the next one flames the previous poster for telling him what to do or not do, etc etc etc.
Suddenly one speculation becomes an all-out argument! And for what? Because the original post might be wrong? Because one person might have suggested a pilot made a mistake when he didn't?
We've had the pilot from a recent accident come on PPRuNe and explain what he thought happened. We've had relatives and friends come on and thank people for their condolences, and for caring enough to post at all. But as I recall, we haven't actually had anyone - except other PPRuNers - complain about people speculating in a perfectly human fashion as to what happened.
Live and let live might not be perfect, but it's better than any of the alternatives.
Cheers,
Whirly (with a "Y")
Let's be realistic. You will NOT stop people wondering what happened. And it's normal for them to share those speculations with fellow aviators. So they'll post them. Now, look back at other threads where this has happened. The original speculating would probably have been long forgotten. But what usually happens is that someone says the post shouldn't have been made, someone else argues for free speech, a third person wades in and demands that all speculation stop, the next one flames the previous poster for telling him what to do or not do, etc etc etc.
Suddenly one speculation becomes an all-out argument! And for what? Because the original post might be wrong? Because one person might have suggested a pilot made a mistake when he didn't?
We've had the pilot from a recent accident come on PPRuNe and explain what he thought happened. We've had relatives and friends come on and thank people for their condolences, and for caring enough to post at all. But as I recall, we haven't actually had anyone - except other PPRuNers - complain about people speculating in a perfectly human fashion as to what happened.
Live and let live might not be perfect, but it's better than any of the alternatives.
Cheers,
Whirly (with a "Y")
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speculation
It's no doubt inevitable that some people will post speculatve theories, and some people will argue for the benifit of these posts. However, the AAIB report makes it clear that the initial report now published only shows the facts as they have been found so far. It makes clear that not only may these facts be corrected and altered before the final report comes out, it also states that no analysis has been done on the information found so far.
I think if the AAIB are waiting before they come to any conclusions, it may be worthwhile if we consider doing the same.
I think if the AAIB are waiting before they come to any conclusions, it may be worthwhile if we consider doing the same.
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I am an Offshore Pilot currently flying heavy helicopters. The question whether a Pilot is respected or not by his peers has no bearing on my desire to understand what happended on this flight.
I do not like the thought that this accident could be attributable to pilot/crew error but if that is what the AAIB ultimatley determine then we accept it and try to learn from it. My responsibilities as a proffessional aviator to my crew and passengers requires me to keep an open mind and strip away the emotion from the incident.
It would help if we could read a thread without all the "Holier than thou sh*te" complicating the messages!
We have been here before with the Brent Spar accident!!
I do not like the thought that this accident could be attributable to pilot/crew error but if that is what the AAIB ultimatley determine then we accept it and try to learn from it. My responsibilities as a proffessional aviator to my crew and passengers requires me to keep an open mind and strip away the emotion from the incident.
It would help if we could read a thread without all the "Holier than thou sh*te" complicating the messages!
We have been here before with the Brent Spar accident!!
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Originally Posted by Whirlybird
Let's be realistic.
As has been pointed out on this thread, the helicopter world is a very small one and it is inevitable that crew involved in any accident will likely be well known to many of us on this forum. As long as we all remember that, particularly when responding to threads such as this one (although it has wandered way off the initial post), then others should not take offence. Surely, the real intent of this site, outside of the rumour mongering, is to improve our understanding of the profession or passtime that we are all engaged in and so help prevent further accidents.
I agree DOUBLE BOGEY. Keep to what we know, make our discussion beneficial to all, especially those of us who may find ourselves in very similar positions sometime. ie night, over ocean, etc etc.
To go out on a limb here, has anyone had very similar experience which could provide 'sensible' insight into this tragic accident. Maybe even to start a new thread with a title such as 'Things that could go wrong in certain ops'. It may help us inexperienced guys with a little knowledge from the old and wrinklies.
As posted previously, we hate to think our fellow aviatiors may have gotten things wrong but, if it's a case of pilot error or mechanical / instrument failure etc, then I know what I prefer the outcome to be, even if others disagree.
To go out on a limb here, has anyone had very similar experience which could provide 'sensible' insight into this tragic accident. Maybe even to start a new thread with a title such as 'Things that could go wrong in certain ops'. It may help us inexperienced guys with a little knowledge from the old and wrinklies.
As posted previously, we hate to think our fellow aviatiors may have gotten things wrong but, if it's a case of pilot error or mechanical / instrument failure etc, then I know what I prefer the outcome to be, even if others disagree.
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A question for offshore dauphin pilots,
1. How come the AAIB report makes no mention of AVAD calls on the CVR for 100 feet (pre-set) and 50 feet (the later being the standard for a rig landing).
Or is the AVAD suspended during rig approaches?
1. How come the AAIB report makes no mention of AVAD calls on the CVR for 100 feet (pre-set) and 50 feet (the later being the standard for a rig landing).
Or is the AVAD suspended during rig approaches?
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Hi Folks
Media making further assumptions, headlines reported as if definitive.
NW Evening Mail -
Mechanical failure ruled out in fatal chopper crash
Published on 30/01/2007
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewar...aspx?id=460867
HTH
ATB
Paul
Media making further assumptions, headlines reported as if definitive.
NW Evening Mail -
Mechanical failure ruled out in fatal chopper crash
Published on 30/01/2007
http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewar...aspx?id=460867
HTH
ATB
Paul
I too am concerned that we seem to fear above all else the conclusion of Pilot Error. I believe that this is still the final conclusion in many aircraft accidents and incidents, and I assume that none of us can honestly claim to have never made a mistake, and I would consider that I personally have made and observed mistakes that have genuinely frightened me and could have had disasterous consequences. You learn from them, you discuss them openly, just to put that experience to someone else so that they may never get themselves into that situation, or may better get out of it.
I further agree with a point made by Malamo, that I almost hope for that conclusion - The thought that an aircraft suffered a terminal fault that was impossible to recover from, is something that keeps me awake at night !
Nobody is doubting the experience and professionalism of this crew and I've heard nothing but positive comments about both pilots. Whilst I didn't know them, its clear they were a good crew. I, like most of us, have no firm idea what caused this crash so I won't try to speculate, but if it ultimately turns out to be pilot error, few of us would be criticising the crew - I will maybe be able to read the report having learned something, but certainly I'll be thinking 'There but for the grace of God go I .....'
I further agree with a point made by Malamo, that I almost hope for that conclusion - The thought that an aircraft suffered a terminal fault that was impossible to recover from, is something that keeps me awake at night !
Nobody is doubting the experience and professionalism of this crew and I've heard nothing but positive comments about both pilots. Whilst I didn't know them, its clear they were a good crew. I, like most of us, have no firm idea what caused this crash so I won't try to speculate, but if it ultimately turns out to be pilot error, few of us would be criticising the crew - I will maybe be able to read the report having learned something, but certainly I'll be thinking 'There but for the grace of God go I .....'
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AVAD
DB: I wondered the same as you did. It would have been helpful to know from this bulletin whether the AVAD call occurred or not. I'm not a chopper pilot, but I thought the AVAD 100ft call was "hard wired" and not cancellable. Does anyone know if that rule is suspended on final approach and if so how?
DB, "50 ft for rig landings": whose SOP is that????
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radalt
the 100 foot to go call cannot be cancelled.
Offshore sop bug setting is 200 foot set before landing for visual approaches.
Offshore sop bug setting is 200 foot set before landing for visual approaches.
Last edited by AndyJB32; 31st Jan 2007 at 11:46.
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AVAD
IIRC the AVAD "100 feet" warning does not operate if the ROD is over a certain figure - I think it might be 1500fpm. This is to avoid distracting the crew when crossing an elevated deck edge for instance. The last recorded ROD was 1400fpm.
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I am wondering if it was not mechanical failure could it have been a gyro related issue, I should say now I have never flown the 365, but I have experienced and am familiar with gryo related problems in the SK, which can be quite insidious initially and then deteriorate quickly.
Such a problem can affect both the attitude information supplied to the crew and obviously the stabilisation system. A problem of that nature relatively close to the surface at night with poor to nil visual cues/horizon would be a nightmare to deal with.
Such a problem can affect both the attitude information supplied to the crew and obviously the stabilisation system. A problem of that nature relatively close to the surface at night with poor to nil visual cues/horizon would be a nightmare to deal with.
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I would suggest that following tragic accidents the time between the loss of a friend(s) and the report of the cause(s) being released is best used remembering the good times had with that person(s) no longer with us ......Speculation...rumours..guesses or whatever you want to call them serve no purpose in written form other than to revive moments of sadness for those that knew them...
Yes Prune is a rumour network...rumour about things that dont affect others emotionally..
I may be wrong but just my view on dignity and human respect for others
Yes Prune is a rumour network...rumour about things that dont affect others emotionally..
I may be wrong but just my view on dignity and human respect for others
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Bug setting for night is 300', 200' for day and on short finals the AVAD can be cancelled but not the light. For us at least!
I once flew for an operator whose AVAD could not be cancelled, after carrying out 30+ landings during the day you start to filter out the call so it becomes no longer an alert but just another annoying noise.
When you can cancel it it is so unusual to hear it, that on activation you react immediately. However if it is cancelled on finals and a go around is made the gear is not retracted or a landing is made (activation of the weight on wheels switch) I don't think the AVAD will activate and give an alert if you go below the bug set height. This might account for the absence of comment in the report.
Perhaps the more technical minded will confirm this or put me right.
I once flew for an operator whose AVAD could not be cancelled, after carrying out 30+ landings during the day you start to filter out the call so it becomes no longer an alert but just another annoying noise.
When you can cancel it it is so unusual to hear it, that on activation you react immediately. However if it is cancelled on finals and a go around is made the gear is not retracted or a landing is made (activation of the weight on wheels switch) I don't think the AVAD will activate and give an alert if you go below the bug set height. This might account for the absence of comment in the report.
Perhaps the more technical minded will confirm this or put me right.
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I was quite upset after reading the report. Could it possibly be that depite all the training and the many years practice the gremlins that haunt those dark nights can conspire to snatch your life away as punishment for just a moment's lack of concentration. I know that once or twice they have scared the **** out of me and I know that others have had their own scary moments where disorientation or loss of concentration have resulted in a 'near-miss' or, in one case, a nasty, pointless CFIT.
Unlike Melabo I do hope that there was a mechanical failure of some kind for
otherwise it means that I have to be sure to be 110% on top of the entire flight even if that last shuttle comes at the end of a maxed-out Duty Period when I'm feeling like ****e. I knew I worked in an unforgiving world but having to perform to the highest levels without respite is something I wish I could do but I know that I can't.
I still hope that the 10% of the aircraft yet unrecovered may yield important data. If not then I have to come to terms with what may be unrealistic expectations of our ability to perform at the required levels without ever making any mistakes. Maybe routine night flying needs to be reviewed and maybe technologies such as NVGs need to be revisited for use in cruise flight.
G
Unlike Melabo I do hope that there was a mechanical failure of some kind for
otherwise it means that I have to be sure to be 110% on top of the entire flight even if that last shuttle comes at the end of a maxed-out Duty Period when I'm feeling like ****e. I knew I worked in an unforgiving world but having to perform to the highest levels without respite is something I wish I could do but I know that I can't.
I still hope that the 10% of the aircraft yet unrecovered may yield important data. If not then I have to come to terms with what may be unrealistic expectations of our ability to perform at the required levels without ever making any mistakes. Maybe routine night flying needs to be reviewed and maybe technologies such as NVGs need to be revisited for use in cruise flight.
G
Avoid imitations
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I generally refrain from posting my opinion or theories in matters like these. However, in view of the press's reaction to the initial report I would like members of the discussion panel to reflect on two fairly recent previous accidents.
Firstly, the S-76 lost in unusual circumstances where it spiralled out of control into the Bering sea, causing a loss of 14 lives. That could have easily been seen as pilot error and the argument still goes on.
Secondly, the original UK A109 crash landing that was put down to pilot error until a second one went down some time afterwards in almost identical circumstances and was found to be caused by an incorrectly fitted control item, a non rotating star scissor link. The first accident evidence (wreckage) was re-examined and the same evidence was there. Verdict changed.
Firstly, the S-76 lost in unusual circumstances where it spiralled out of control into the Bering sea, causing a loss of 14 lives. That could have easily been seen as pilot error and the argument still goes on.
Secondly, the original UK A109 crash landing that was put down to pilot error until a second one went down some time afterwards in almost identical circumstances and was found to be caused by an incorrectly fitted control item, a non rotating star scissor link. The first accident evidence (wreckage) was re-examined and the same evidence was there. Verdict changed.