R22 Crash Stockport
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going out on the limb !!!
Ok, if nobody else will ......
In a hover at 150ft, you have allot of power in use .. I am assuming its a tight area otherwise why are you hovering at 150ft ??
At 100ft all is well, pilot may have pulled a little more collective to reduce rate of decent, that would give 80% due to increase in pitch ... then a yaw .. are these the symtoms of vortex ring ??
Shoot me down now .. but its just a theory !!
Note .. I have never done time in a Robo and never intend too ...
In a hover at 150ft, you have allot of power in use .. I am assuming its a tight area otherwise why are you hovering at 150ft ??
At 100ft all is well, pilot may have pulled a little more collective to reduce rate of decent, that would give 80% due to increase in pitch ... then a yaw .. are these the symtoms of vortex ring ??
Shoot me down now .. but its just a theory !!
Note .. I have never done time in a Robo and never intend too ...
Last edited by Ding Dong; 24th Jan 2007 at 06:56. Reason: spelling
The Original Whirly
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Overpitching? If you came to an OGE hover with two on board? Or am I way off track; not something I know much about - so definitely just speculation on my part.
Phew!!!! Glad you're both OK. One thing this has taught me - as an instructor, I'm never flying as a passenger without the dual controls installed. Not that I think I'm that brilliant a pilot or could cope with everything, but having to just sit there and do nothing must have been terrifying!!!!!!
Editing as I just saw Ding Dong's post...but I think we're roughly saying the same thing, and I think what Ding Dong is trying to describe is overpitching, not vortex ring.
Please note....I would not speculate on this normally, but since the pilot is with us on this thread, maybe all of us Robbie pilots can learn something from this.
Phew!!!! Glad you're both OK. One thing this has taught me - as an instructor, I'm never flying as a passenger without the dual controls installed. Not that I think I'm that brilliant a pilot or could cope with everything, but having to just sit there and do nothing must have been terrifying!!!!!!
Editing as I just saw Ding Dong's post...but I think we're roughly saying the same thing, and I think what Ding Dong is trying to describe is overpitching, not vortex ring.
Please note....I would not speculate on this normally, but since the pilot is with us on this thread, maybe all of us Robbie pilots can learn something from this.
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surely overpitching would not result in a yaw to the left? That sounds like engine or drive failure?
either way, as many of you have said, worst nightmare scenario, especially without dual controls fitted....
thanks for coming onto the forum and discussing...
either way, as many of you have said, worst nightmare scenario, especially without dual controls fitted....
thanks for coming onto the forum and discussing...
Not clear if it was left or righr yaw but. .
My guess is you ran out of engine power/MAP. To counteract the sink/decent the pilot pulled more lever/left pedal and RRPM decayed. Main Rotor & Tail rotor overpictched
Guessing - 2x 12-14 stone blokes with 15+ gals fuel - carb heat out.
I stand to be corrected. .
Well done for posting, I was begining to think it was a component failure.
My guess is you ran out of engine power/MAP. To counteract the sink/decent the pilot pulled more lever/left pedal and RRPM decayed. Main Rotor & Tail rotor overpictched
Guessing - 2x 12-14 stone blokes with 15+ gals fuel - carb heat out.
I stand to be corrected. .
Well done for posting, I was begining to think it was a component failure.
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... all positive !
I was going with the vortex ring theory .. You have the power the sink rate and the yaw ..??? i took it that yaw came before the 80% rpm ???
The edit was because i spelt theory wrong ..
I was going with the vortex ring theory .. You have the power the sink rate and the yaw ..??? i took it that yaw came before the 80% rpm ???
The edit was because i spelt theory wrong ..
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in response to rotorspin
I've not flown the R22 for 10 years now, so forgive any errors.
If the aircraft was over pitched, that would cause the rotor rpm to decrease, after it got to the point when the engine could not produce enough power to overcome the rotor drag. With an OGE hover, two people and full carb heat the aircraft would be using a fairly large amount of power initially.
If the aircraft was overpitched, then as well as reducing the main rotor RPM, the tail rotor RPM would fall. Because the tail rotor is a smaller rotor, and is spinning a lot faster than the main rotor, any reduction in the tail rotor rpm will have a significant effect on the anti torque function. The torque reaction of the R22 makes the nose turn right, tail turn left. Any loss of tail rotor effectiveness would therefore cause the nose to turn to the right, and tail to turn left, as described here.
I don't know if it was due to over pitching, or anything else, but the nose would turn to the right in a low rotor rpm situation.
As already mentioned here though, the main thing is everyone walked away unhurt to fly another day.
If the aircraft was over pitched, that would cause the rotor rpm to decrease, after it got to the point when the engine could not produce enough power to overcome the rotor drag. With an OGE hover, two people and full carb heat the aircraft would be using a fairly large amount of power initially.
If the aircraft was overpitched, then as well as reducing the main rotor RPM, the tail rotor RPM would fall. Because the tail rotor is a smaller rotor, and is spinning a lot faster than the main rotor, any reduction in the tail rotor rpm will have a significant effect on the anti torque function. The torque reaction of the R22 makes the nose turn right, tail turn left. Any loss of tail rotor effectiveness would therefore cause the nose to turn to the right, and tail to turn left, as described here.
I don't know if it was due to over pitching, or anything else, but the nose would turn to the right in a low rotor rpm situation.
As already mentioned here though, the main thing is everyone walked away unhurt to fly another day.
Last edited by AndyJB32; 24th Jan 2007 at 09:18.
As an ex R22 FI,
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?
I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?
I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.
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Phew!!!! Glad you're both OK. One thing this has taught me - as an instructor, I'm never flying as a passenger without the dual controls installed. Not that I think I'm that brilliant a pilot or could cope with everything, but having to just sit there and do nothing must have been terrifying!!!!!!
Since then, whenever I'm left seat I always check for proper installation (regardless of who did the A check), and whenever I remove them I never refit them myself anymore (not laziness, just ensures that the next person that needs them knows they've been removed and can ensure that they are properly refitted).
And before anybody says about signoff when removing and refitting duals, take a look at your school, does it really happen?
Just a beware, I still remember that day thinking that had something happened then my instructor with a collective in his hand would have made an interesting photo.....
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Interesting to read the reactions to the lack of duals installed. Understandable as we are all drivers.....
....but, CRM people!
If I'm PIC and find myself in a tricky spot, I don’t want to have to start fighting the other person’s inputs (however well meaning) as well as attempting to deal with the situation at hand.
Yes, on this occasion, the pax actions appear to be correct. But the thought of someone snatching the cyclic at 50' during an auto because they have a couple of hours more in Robbo's than me could make an already bad situation considerably worse!
My two cents....
After it's all said and done,....... definitely well done that man!
....but, CRM people!
If I'm PIC and find myself in a tricky spot, I don’t want to have to start fighting the other person’s inputs (however well meaning) as well as attempting to deal with the situation at hand.
Yes, on this occasion, the pax actions appear to be correct. But the thought of someone snatching the cyclic at 50' during an auto because they have a couple of hours more in Robbo's than me could make an already bad situation considerably worse!
My two cents....
After it's all said and done,....... definitely well done that man!
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Hence the requirement to remove them is the left seater isn't qualified on type, but I guess the bottom line is that if they are qualified on type and you do have them fitted the option is there for them to assist.
The practicalities of a non instructor/examiner taking over at short notice and without the cooperation of the right hand seat is a different matter. (The point I'm making badly here is that instructors probably have a good idea of the right level of effort involved and are probably seeing a situation develop from their experience on trial lessons. I was with somebody a while ago who froze on the pedals as we were lifting when I was in the left hand seat and all I could do was push the collective to the floor, so I do admire you guys and gals!)
The practicalities of a non instructor/examiner taking over at short notice and without the cooperation of the right hand seat is a different matter. (The point I'm making badly here is that instructors probably have a good idea of the right level of effort involved and are probably seeing a situation develop from their experience on trial lessons. I was with somebody a while ago who froze on the pedals as we were lifting when I was in the left hand seat and all I could do was push the collective to the floor, so I do admire you guys and gals!)
What I've learnt from this incident though is that if I'm in the LHS, I'll keep the duals in, regardless of the experience of the bod in the RHS!
Crazy Scandihooligan
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fbk660
Well done on surviving your incident, only 8 lives to go
Bravo73
Would it make any difference if you went up as a passenger and the duals were not in?
I would have thought that a pretty dangerous situation to land oneself in, trying to take control over the situation physically when the poor pilot is already overloaded with the oncome of the emergency, and then s/he has to deal with you as well
What happend to the more experienced pilot, talking to the flying pilot and making them aware of potential problems, so they can become better pilots, because sometimes "we" arn't always gonna be there to "save" the day when that more inexperienced pilot flys a bunch of friends and gets distracted with conversation and not the situation.
MD
Well done on surviving your incident, only 8 lives to go
Bravo73
Would it make any difference if you went up as a passenger and the duals were not in?
I would have thought that a pretty dangerous situation to land oneself in, trying to take control over the situation physically when the poor pilot is already overloaded with the oncome of the emergency, and then s/he has to deal with you as well
What happend to the more experienced pilot, talking to the flying pilot and making them aware of potential problems, so they can become better pilots, because sometimes "we" arn't always gonna be there to "save" the day when that more inexperienced pilot flys a bunch of friends and gets distracted with conversation and not the situation.
MD
Last edited by MD900 Explorer; 24th Jan 2007 at 20:17. Reason: Removed unecessary waffle and unprofessional comments....sorry
I hate joining in conjecture: that's what the AAIB do a lot better than anyone here, but if you must insist, there are two key facts you should bear in mind:
1) it didn't have full fuel. At least 1 hour 20mins had been flown prior to the 150' hover
2) Some carb icing can't be ruled out, even if the Carb heat was selected full. I haven't flown an R22 for a while, but I do recall clearly that you need to engage carb heat in plenty of time as it takes several seconds for the heat to reach the carb....and it must be selected while the engine is still at full power, not after the MP has begun to drop to 18' or less. It's not clear when the carb heat ws selected, only that it was verified after the problems began.
Just my two pennuth.
1) it didn't have full fuel. At least 1 hour 20mins had been flown prior to the 150' hover
2) Some carb icing can't be ruled out, even if the Carb heat was selected full. I haven't flown an R22 for a while, but I do recall clearly that you need to engage carb heat in plenty of time as it takes several seconds for the heat to reach the carb....and it must be selected while the engine is still at full power, not after the MP has begun to drop to 18' or less. It's not clear when the carb heat ws selected, only that it was verified after the problems began.
Just my two pennuth.
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lo-rpm would result in the nose yawing to the LEFT
(roll the throttle off in the hover and you need RIGHT pedal)
i dont think there is a legal requirement to remove the duals if the passenger isnt rated. it comes down to the discretion of the training school/aircraft owner
(roll the throttle off in the hover and you need RIGHT pedal)
i dont think there is a legal requirement to remove the duals if the passenger isnt rated. it comes down to the discretion of the training school/aircraft owner
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rolling the throttle off in the hover is reducing the torque, which causes the nose to go left.
If the rpm's getting dragged down but still with a high power setting, and therefore with a lot of torque, the lack of tail rotor thrust due to its low rpm, will not be enough to overcome the engine torque, so the nose will go right (on the R22)
If the rpm's getting dragged down but still with a high power setting, and therefore with a lot of torque, the lack of tail rotor thrust due to its low rpm, will not be enough to overcome the engine torque, so the nose will go right (on the R22)
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I've seen this sort of incident from the left seat too. Very frightening. I did not intervene even though dual controls were in.
Circumstances.
R22, fairly high weight. Deteriorating visibility. We decide to land to avoid IMC. P1 picked a clearing in a wood which he felt was secluded and so would not attract attention. Airspeed bled off and slow descent initiated. Horn came on with yaw at about 50ft. P1 dumped the lever and we hit hard enough to get out and check for damage, but there was none. Carb heat was full on.
We came to the conclusion he was stressed up and gripping the throttle hard enough to override the governor. When the weather improved we continued without problem.
P1 was the owner and an R22 instructor.
Not wishing to pre-empt AAIB. just a factual report of a similar event that didn't end so badly - but could have done.
Circumstances.
R22, fairly high weight. Deteriorating visibility. We decide to land to avoid IMC. P1 picked a clearing in a wood which he felt was secluded and so would not attract attention. Airspeed bled off and slow descent initiated. Horn came on with yaw at about 50ft. P1 dumped the lever and we hit hard enough to get out and check for damage, but there was none. Carb heat was full on.
We came to the conclusion he was stressed up and gripping the throttle hard enough to override the governor. When the weather improved we continued without problem.
P1 was the owner and an R22 instructor.
Not wishing to pre-empt AAIB. just a factual report of a similar event that didn't end so badly - but could have done.
Thanks for the unwarranted 'attack' on me 
, MD900 Explorer, but you've asked me a few direct questions so I feel obliged to respond.
In this case, the occupant of the LHS feels that it WOULD have made a difference. You have read the whole thread, haven't you?
Er, no. I'm not saying that at all. How on earth did you infer that?
Who said anything about trying 'to take control over the situation physically'? Once again, I think that you are trying to infer way too much into my comment. I am well aware of the 'you have/I have control' CRM implications in a situation like this.
What??? I don't know, what did happen 'to the more experienced pilot talking to the flying pilot blah, blah, blah?' Is there a punchline to this somewhere?
Sorry for being so sarcastic but I've got a feeling that you might be trying to project some of your own fears and insecurities into my comments.
But here's a hypothetical scenario for you, MD900 Explorer. You are flying as a passenger with your Chief Pilot in a R22. Let's say that the CP is very senior and he's probably forgotten more about helicopters than we'll ever know. But, unfortunately, like the Captain of that recent Continental flight, he has a heart attack. Bonus question for 10 points: do you want the dual controls installed or not?
And to thecontroller:
There is a legal requirement (in so much as there's a legal requirement to do a Check A before the first flight of the day). The Check A specifically says that the dual controls have to be removed if the occupant of the LHS is not a 'rated helicopter pilot'. I'm afraid that I'm at home at the moment so I can't give you a page number because I don't have a POH to hand.
"CAUTION - Removable controls should be removed if person in left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot." Page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.
.
, MD900 Explorer, but you've asked me a few direct questions so I feel obliged to respond. I would have thought that a pretty dangerous situation to land oneself in, trying to take control over the situation physically when the poor pilot is already overloaded with the oncome of the emergency, and then s/he has to deal with you flapping away. Hardly professional me thinks.
What happend to the more experienced pilot, talking to the flying pilot and making them aware of potential problems, so they can become better pilots, because sometimes "we" arn't always gonna be there to "save" the day when that more inexperienced pilot flys a bunch of friends and gets distracted with conversation and not the situation.
MD
MD
Sorry for being so sarcastic but I've got a feeling that you might be trying to project some of your own fears and insecurities into my comments.
But here's a hypothetical scenario for you, MD900 Explorer. You are flying as a passenger with your Chief Pilot in a R22. Let's say that the CP is very senior and he's probably forgotten more about helicopters than we'll ever know. But, unfortunately, like the Captain of that recent Continental flight, he has a heart attack. Bonus question for 10 points: do you want the dual controls installed or not?
And to thecontroller:
Originally Posted by thecontroller
i dont think there is a legal requirement to remove the duals if the passenger isnt rated. it comes down to the discretion of the training school/aircraft owner
"CAUTION - Removable controls should be removed if person in left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot." Page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.
.
Last edited by Bravo73; 25th Jan 2007 at 09:31. Reason: Added Robinson POH page reference
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Bravo73,
Please excuse me, it certainly wasn't meant as an unwarrented attack on you or your credibility here. I enjoy reading your comments as they seem to be backed up by experience and a sensible head.
My comments were made on the basis of what you said about always wanting when in the LHS have the duals fitted, and maybe my imagination went overboard as to what might happen should a bad CRM situation happen, not that i would suggest that you would do it, but merely that somebody may do it. But you didnt answer my question in your first rebutt to me; and yes i have read the whole thread.
Certainly no fears or insecurities projected from myself in your comments. But i shall be sure to choose my words carefully next time, since you seem to be a sensitive soul.
As for your question about wanting to have the controls in place? If i was a rated pilot on that particular machine, it would be nice to have them in, should it be necessary. But only from the point of view of the P1 giving control to me verbally. As for any other type, i would like to think the pilot in charge has been through training and should be able to cope with the situation as it arises. Maybe i place more faith and trust in colleagues than i ought to, but hey, thats the kinda guy i am.
Remember, keep it in the green!
MD
Please excuse me, it certainly wasn't meant as an unwarrented attack on you or your credibility here. I enjoy reading your comments as they seem to be backed up by experience and a sensible head.
My comments were made on the basis of what you said about always wanting when in the LHS have the duals fitted, and maybe my imagination went overboard as to what might happen should a bad CRM situation happen, not that i would suggest that you would do it, but merely that somebody may do it. But you didnt answer my question in your first rebutt to me; and yes i have read the whole thread.
Certainly no fears or insecurities projected from myself in your comments. But i shall be sure to choose my words carefully next time, since you seem to be a sensitive soul.
As for your question about wanting to have the controls in place? If i was a rated pilot on that particular machine, it would be nice to have them in, should it be necessary. But only from the point of view of the P1 giving control to me verbally. As for any other type, i would like to think the pilot in charge has been through training and should be able to cope with the situation as it arises. Maybe i place more faith and trust in colleagues than i ought to, but hey, thats the kinda guy i am.
Remember, keep it in the green!
MD