Winches on Police/Airambulance helis?

[MINself]

It sounds like regardless of JAR/EASA that if the national authority wants to allow something it goes ahead and just does it! so if ADAC operate under their national authority regulations are you saying they do train every 6 months from their aircraft? and is the aircraft SSE/Group A performance throughout ie do they strip it out?

It sounds like ADAC are relying on their crew members experience for their winching operations and that they winch alot, rather than continuation training because of lack of "real" winches, which is great if you have that experience to fall back on.

[fone_effect]

Perhaps the answer is to make all Police and AA aircraft state owned and governed via Mil Regs and the H and S issues would be covered by the risk assessments done by the military for their winching/fast roping/abseiling activities, then any winching suitable for a smaller aircraft could be done without draining the resources of the bigger boys.

When SAR is privatised will they become public transport or remain as state aircraft operating as they do now?

[Arctic Tern]

No, not my opinion. Training and real life rescue missions are different things.
If you give a person or a unit a basic HHO course and push them out to real life, than this unfortunate guys are coming under real pressure.

This is a pretty jaundiced view - you seem to ignore the fact that many of the pilots who are doing HHO work for the first time are extremely competant and experienced crew commanders who understand the CRM issues associated with pressure. Many of these guys have been flying Police Air Support tasks that have themselves a good deal of pressure. In my earlier thread I wasn't suggesting that crews could complete a basic HHO course then go straight into real world ops with no additional currency training - my point was that it doesn't require a 40 - 50 hour military type course to teach hoisting to a safe standard. Assuming everyone is aware of their limits and the supervisory staff support the crew decisions, there is not a major problem. Let's not get 'wrapped around the axle' here. There are tried and tested methods of teaching basic HHO that include the use of a variety of training media. The introduction to HHO course should include a CRM element that reinforces the risk assessment/decision making topic. I just don't buy the arguement that the only people who can do hoisting are experienced HHO guys - these guys had to learn their trade somewhere when they were new! I certainly don't support the idea that only the military should do hoisting.
Now on a related subject - how many of the so called expert SAR companies operating outside the US/Europe/Aus are really fulfilling their obligations?
Heard a very good story about a new set-up in the Gulf where a company providing Day/Night SAR cover has stated that it does not have a requirement to recover ejected pilots over the water. I wonder how many of the NATO crews who exercise in this area are aware of this. Flippin disgrace . Mind you, one has to ask whether the operating authority have asked the right questions.

[tecpilot]

Originally Posted by MINself

It sounds like regardless of JAR/EASA that if the national authority wants to allow something it goes ahead and just does it! so if ADAC operate under their national authority regulations are you saying they do train every 6 months from their aircraft? and is the aircraft SSE/Group A performance throughout ie do they strip it out?
It sounds like ADAC are relying on their crew members experience for their winching operations and that they winch alot, rather than continuation training because of lack of "real" winches, which is great if you have that experience to fall back on.

As mentioned there is no JAA HHO regulation in Germany because Germany is still under Amd 1 JAR OPS3 and in this file there is no HHO part. Therefore the civ operators using hoists or shorthaul train their personal according to their company operating manuals. This operating manual is allowed by the authority, therefore it's in law to have only 6 months trainings as described. They do a good 3-5 days training twice a year including theoretical instruction and a basic mountain climbing and safety course. But not as described in Amd 3 all 90 days and not with single engine hoverpower. The public german operator like German Border Guard or police units doing hoist or shorthaul ops can do what ever they want, because they are not holding an AOC and they are not controlled by any civil CAA.
On all EC twins Cat A procedures are not allowed with sliding doors open as usual during hoist or shorthaul operations. Therefore there is no description of Cat A hoisting procedures and operators are not allowed to make their own RFM .

This is a pretty jaundiced view - you seem to ignore the fact that many of the pilots who are doing HHO work for the first time are extremely competant and experienced crew commanders who understand the CRM issues associated with pressure.

Absolute right! No questions. But this is the situation in mil ops not in small police units. In this small units the pilot is mostly a civil or police self trained pilot. And the crew is only this single pilot, a observer and may be a hoist operator means the next suitable person. Because thats the normal duty crew and suddenly there is a need for a hoist operation. Go out! You have the HHO course done!

[jammydonut]

When the iced up 737 crashed into the Potomac river - Washington - a few years back, it was well illustrated how useful winches would have been.
It was amazing pilot skill to use the skids to tow frozen survivors to the shore.

[Arctic Tern]

In this small units the pilot is mostly a civil or police self trained pilot. And the crew is only this single pilot, a observer and may be a hoist operator. Because thats the normal duty crew and suddenly there is a need for a hoist operation. Go out! You have the HHO course done!

OK Tecpilot, I concede that you may have a point. I was assuming we were talking about the UK.

[[email protected]]

Tecpilot - I fully agree with your last paragraph of your previous post, I'm afraid that Arctic Terns simplistic view on winching is exactly how AA/police crews could get themselves into trouble. A basic course is nowhere near enough, even just for a fallen walker on a steep hillside.

I am not naiive enough to believe only SAR can do winching but I do know that winching can go from very benign to downright scary in a few seconds and only thorough training and constant practice are sufficient to provide adequate risk mitigation.

I am glad this has opened a healthy debate, which was what I hoped for; it does seem as though the inland/urban winching requirement is going to continue to be an issue - AA/police can do winching but who will foot the training bill if it is to be done properly?

Maybe the answer is more military SAR since we don't have the JAR/EASA issues and can operate anywhere day or night. All we need is some serviceable aircraft and we can improve our availability considerably.

If there is one area that could be transferred from SAR to AA, it is medevacs - these are time consuming and often tedious patient transfers that do not need a military aircraft and crew with a winch to complete. Get AA 24/7 operationally and give them all the medevacs and your precious SAR asset will be far more available for the job it is designed for.

[MerryDown]

Chinese Cockle Pickers............

I do believe the Police have some dreadful footage of stranded cockle pickers (God Bless them) drowning ! Recorded from the local Police EC-135.
While winches on Police helicopters will on occassions be useful, I do not think there is the money to support either the purchasing of the winches themselves, nor to provide an initial course and refesher training so a suitable standard can be acheived and maintained.
UK units are well funded to a point, but this is not the US where budgets for Police aviation allows patrol flying. Budgetry restraints are ever evident in UK Police operations of any sort, aviation or otherwise (MrBrown)
In Policing a lot of theories start within the Met police, some good some bad. I suspect these purchases are more related to security of the capital and the Olympic games, more than any desire to operate Police helicopters rescuing folk from swollen rivers. So in the long term, to have winch trained Police in the capital could be useful. As for the rest of the country I dont think it will happen..................
However security of any UK city is the responsibility of the Police service, and if there is a will to have winch equipped helicopters to be able to respond to that threat given appropriate threat levels, then we will see money being spent on winches . Day to day police units will have no use for the winch training, that is until some more cockle pickers end up stranded.
And that is when the Police Units will do what they do best, get stuck in and help get the job done, and worry CAA afterwards.
Watch this space !
Merry

[tecpilot]

I'm not an expert in UK police work. But seeing police units in some european countries the average regional unit consist of 2-4 helicopter and 5-10 pilots. They will do mostly a very wide and ambitious 24h a day spectrum of missions. NVG, FLIR, fire fighting, traffic surveillance, insertion/extraction of rapid reaction forces, sometimes HEMS/mountain rescue, VIP Pax, sling load and so on. In the most european countries they don't operate under OPS3. They use sometimes non civil approved equipment, non civil approved procedures and quality management, CRM and SOPs are not anywhere normal terms.
Because of the low frequency of the most "special" missions they would need a very big amount of training to be really current in case there is surprisingly a fire, or a hostage, or a hoist operation. Unfortunately also in the most units there is a financial pressure, a budget for the whole year. In fact i believe to observe a shear between financial and personal possibilities and the claims given by the public. I know police pilots having only 80h a year but should be able to be proficient IFR, NVG, sling load/fire, rescue,...
This wonderful guys are really ready to give their best, but it isn't done with new equipment. They need more money, more training, more missions and after that they could build a second column to mil/SAR.
At the moment i believe the accident rate in this small but special part police helicopter ops is much higher than on civil ops. Thinking about the last years accidents in France, Spain, Germany, ...

[Droopy]

Merrydown, there is only footage of one cockle picker; he was located some distance offshore on a sand bank by the police ASU who directed the RNLI hovercraft to him. All the rest either sadly drowned or had already made their own way to shore.

[Bertie Thruster]

Crab said:

"If there is one area that could be transferred from SAR to AA, it is medevacs - these are time consuming and often tedious patient transfers that do not need a military aircraft and crew with a winch to complete. Get AA 24/7 operationally and give them all the medevacs and your precious SAR asset will be far more available for the job it is designed for."


Crab, in my area of UK, the punters who pay for the air ambulance don't want the helicopter and the paramedics tied up doing one or two transfers every day.

The people pay for the HEMS service and they control, through the trustees of the charity, how that money is spent.

If they don't like the service, the people stop paying and the unit closes.

[MINself]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Maybe the answer is more military SAR since we don't have the JAR/EASA issues and can operate anywhere day or night.

Judging by whats going to happen to Mil SAR fleet over the next few years more Mil SAR is unlikely, all those former SAR aircraft and crews will be far too busy on working abroad!
I do agree with your opinion on night hospital transfers, although tedious? when its life saving/changing to someone, you may not be being asked to hold position over a small craft in a gale but its still essential work. This I envisage being on top of the current AA service available and whos going to pay for this?

[oldbeefer]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Get AA 24/7 operationally and give them all the medevacs and your precious SAR asset will be far more available for the job it is designed for.

Precious - you said it Crab!

[MerryDown]

Noted Droopy.

Thanks Droopy,


Misinformed I do apologise, however it does raise the issue of , in that instance a winch would have been useful to Police Ops (And the cockle picker) . Police helicopters have a habit of being very early to the scenes of a lot of major incidents. I swing either way with the theory, if it does happen lets hope they train the guys to a high standard.


Merry

[[email protected]]

Bertie - my point entirely ref the winching - who will pay for the extra flying? I am sure all the AA donors would far rather have AA at night instead. However I don't suppose the punters actually have any say how the AA is used because they just see the stats on numbers of callouts. People won't stop donating just because the air ambulance is used like a land ambulance or they would have done so already.
Is it better that a SAR aircraft and crew are tied up for several hours carrying out the transfer instead? Not when there are enough people criticising SAR for not being available enough already.

The fundamental peroblem I suppose is that the NHS should fund the AAs just as it should fund medevacs (other than giving money to MoD to spend on new HQs)but this is very unlikely to happen.

Minself - SARH may well turn out to be all military pilots in civilian aircraft so don't presume that it will all be civvy. 99% of medevacs are vital to the patient and therefore rewarding to do but probably 10% are challenging and require SAR aircraft and crews.
With the NHS going more towards centres of excellence, more people will have to travel for specialist care and therfore more critically ill patients will require air transport - is a civilian SAR organisation tasked with coastal rescues going to pick up that workload?

Oldbeefer - just when I thought we had got away from the name-calling....

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Usual mixture of different-degrees-of-sense being talked here. As an interesting but sad aside, it would appear that (largely driven by NHS politics) the 2 England-based joint Police/AA units are under threat of losing their jointery. As a result, the 2 counties involved are faced with losing their after-dark casevac capabilities.



Oldbeefer - very sorry to hear todays news from Shawb. Regards/condolences as appropriate, if you would.

[MINself]

Crab said...
Minself - SARH may well turn out to be all military pilots in civilian aircraft so don't presume that it will all be civvy. 99% of medevacs are vital to the patient and therefore rewarding to do but probably 10% are challenging and require SAR aircraft and crews.
With the NHS going more towards centres of excellence, more people will have to travel for specialist care and therfore more critically ill patients will require air transport - is a civilian SAR organisation tasked with coastal rescues going to pick up that workload?
Crab I appreciate you are very well informed but it might suprise you to know that the NHS has already funded some AA hospital transfers and no doubt will again, I accept this is adhoc but it does already happen. AA can't always step up to do this due to weather, dark or unserviceability hence thats why we'll need SAR to do this vital task at times ... for now.
SARH not completely civilian?... you might want to call CHC and let them know its just the aircraft there providing without pilots, or is it all of the crew coming from the military? My presumption is based on the basis of the contract awarded whats yours based on? Great rumour for scare mongering though
Increased hospital transfer by SAR, not if they support more AA aircraft for transfers... who knows?

[CareBear]

Crab,
You seem throughout your posts to strongly imply that only current military SAR pilots should carry out SAR / winching type operations. (I accept that that is somewhat of a generalisation ! but the jist is there).

As an ex SAR boy, and an ex police / HEMS operator I would like to ask if you have considered that a large majority of Police pilots (and I would think AA pilots, but I'm not sure on that score), are ex military pilots and will most likely have a deal of winching / SAR experience. Certainly more than the average "basic training" that has been talked about in the previous few posts.

In general they will certainly have the experience to make sound sensible decisions in lifesaving situations.

I applaud your staunch support for the SAR world, but there are plenty of other pilots in the world who are quite capable of doing a safe, capable job in a difficult situation.

JMO !!!

[Max Contingency]

MINself - I suspect you are confusing the MCA Interim contract with the SAR-H contract. SAR-H has yet to be awarded and is due to commence service circa 2012.

[SARREMF]

Minself - I have agreed with you so far .... but not now. You are confusing the Interim Coast guard contract with SAR-H. SAR-H will almost certainly contain military crews in some shape or form - because thats what the customer wants. So all will currently have to include it in their bid.

Bad day at Shawbury. My deepest sympathy to all.