Winches on Police/Airambulance helis?
Thread Starter
Winches on Police/Airambulance helis?
I hear a rumour that one or more police or air ambulance operators are planning to fit winches to their aircraft.
My questions are 1 Why? and
2. When will it be used and by whom?
My questions are 1 Why? and
2. When will it be used and by whom?
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Not heard this rumour and probably would have done if it were true. If you are going to use a winch then you need dispensation from the CAA and then doesn't come in a packet of Kelloggs. You can't just fit a winch and start winching.
Maybe someone trying to wind you up about the precarious position of RAF SAR! It wasn't the two ex SARFC now working for the enemy was it? No scruples these people.
Maybe someone trying to wind you up about the precarious position of RAF SAR! It wasn't the two ex SARFC now working for the enemy was it? No scruples these people.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
I hear a rumour that one or more police or air ambulance operators are planning to fit winches to their aircraft.
My questions are 1 Why? and
2. When will it be used and by whom?
My questions are 1 Why? and
2. When will it be used and by whom?
1: So a suitably trained crew can winch when you can't land
&
2: So a suitably trained crew can winch when you can't land
these 2 questions are a bit broad but why does anyone want to winch?
If this is true then a winch equiped police or air ambulance helicopter would give these units an option when you can't land. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, a winch might be a useful tool if an air ambulance could not land near to a patient if they are located in a wood or on the side of a cliff, the paramedic could winch down to then deliver immediate medical care, but as for whether they would then both get winched back up to the helicopter, that would depend on a million things.
This won't IMHO replace the conventional UK SAR but enhance it when these few aircraft are tied up or if one of these non-SAR winch equiped aircraft is better placed to respond to an incident.
The New Zealand, Westpac air ambulance service already operate some of their aircraft (BK117s) with winches fitted. I suppose its like anything in aviation its only a good idea if the need is matched by its use and on that time will tell.
Sometimes change can upset other peoples apple carts
Geting back behind hard cover now
No winches on any police or hems a/c in UK - sorry.
Met fitted with hard points but not winches.
You have to comply with JAR 3 Ops which says you have to be SSE during winch training.
You could winch in anger (for real) to save life, if you happened to have a winch onboard during a rescue (as if). Otherwise NO.
Met fitted with hard points but not winches.
You have to comply with JAR 3 Ops which says you have to be SSE during winch training.
You could winch in anger (for real) to save life, if you happened to have a winch onboard during a rescue (as if). Otherwise NO.
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When I first started flying for the Police in 1990, they had a number of items on their wish list: Digital mapping systems, Fully stabilised FLIR / Colour HD Cameras, greater endurance, greater carrying capacity, better night flying capability (i.e NVIS/NVG), winch capability.
Modern, lightweight systems, better computers and the move from singles to twins and then to more capable light twins (e.g. Explorer range and EC135/145) has met many of these wishes, but it has taken time.
The Police have always wanted to have as much capability in their hands as possible and winching is the next logical step.
Why? because they want it and occasionally they will need it.
Who? well they will of course.
But first they will lay down initial training and recurrency requirements, which will be approved in due course and they will go ahead. Nothing will be done "Ad Hoc" and nothing will be approved without showing that it can be done safely.
CRAB's text implies a certain element of "....but only we can do winching!" and "...they are trying to steal my jobs!" Not true on either score
By the way CRAB, if I have read too much into your post I apologise.
Modern, lightweight systems, better computers and the move from singles to twins and then to more capable light twins (e.g. Explorer range and EC135/145) has met many of these wishes, but it has taken time.
The Police have always wanted to have as much capability in their hands as possible and winching is the next logical step.
Why? because they want it and occasionally they will need it.
Who? well they will of course.
But first they will lay down initial training and recurrency requirements, which will be approved in due course and they will go ahead. Nothing will be done "Ad Hoc" and nothing will be approved without showing that it can be done safely.
CRAB's text implies a certain element of "....but only we can do winching!" and "...they are trying to steal my jobs!" Not true on either score
By the way CRAB, if I have read too much into your post I apologise.
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Actually, there is some truth in this rumour. I was asked to look at what training could be provided to an organisation that was interested in seeing if it was possible and importantly, what it would cost - i.e. it was a what would it take to do this question. Not, we must take over the world and have world domination of SAR! SAR-H will do that!
I could not help --- but I knew a man who could. So I passed on the details. No further information. I think MINSELF has hit the nail on the head. It might, if they can afford it, enhance the service provided, but only when required and with a robust training scheme, continuation training scheme and CAA approval - loads of water under several bridges to go yet. It was an Air Ambulance not Police by the way.
More I shall not say.
I could not help --- but I knew a man who could. So I passed on the details. No further information. I think MINSELF has hit the nail on the head. It might, if they can afford it, enhance the service provided, but only when required and with a robust training scheme, continuation training scheme and CAA approval - loads of water under several bridges to go yet. It was an Air Ambulance not Police by the way.
More I shall not say.
Thread Starter
Whilst I can understand why some police operators might need the extra capability for unusual situations I cannot see how any Air Ambulance can justify this step. When they can provide 24 hour cover then maybe a potential enhancement might be a winch but for the very few occasions when it might be useful I cannot see how they could justify the extra costs involved. After all, lots of hard working volunteers help to raise the cash to keep them in the air - are they going to be happy with that cash being frittered on providing a capability that already exists - and yes I am taking about SAR helicopters here.
Ambulance controls are still reluctant to call a SAR helo even when it is obvious winching will be required and often the patient is left suffering for far longer than neccessary whilst the land ambulance arrives, then the air ambulance and then finally when the casualty can't be recovered someone bothers with the ARCC. The capability is there but doesn't get used quickly enough, or at all in some cases so spending more money equipping AAs with winches is pointless........unless someone is trying to take over the SAR world........
Ambulance controls are still reluctant to call a SAR helo even when it is obvious winching will be required and often the patient is left suffering for far longer than neccessary whilst the land ambulance arrives, then the air ambulance and then finally when the casualty can't be recovered someone bothers with the ARCC. The capability is there but doesn't get used quickly enough, or at all in some cases so spending more money equipping AAs with winches is pointless........unless someone is trying to take over the SAR world........
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The fact that UK air ambulances do not provide 24hr (apart from those joint police/air ambulance unit that do, namely Sussex and The Scottish AA!) cover is irrelevant when it comes to winching as the circumstances that require winching happen during the daylight too!
The extra costs of the purchasing, fitting and training with said equipment is suprisingly not as much as you would think. I'm sure all of the UK AA units hard working team of fundraising volunteers efforts are always borne in mind in this day and age of Cost Vs Benefit. I cannot see one of these amazing folk saying that even if just one life was saved or whos suffering was lessened from having a winch this will of paid for itself ten times over. Is frittering costs relevant when it comes to one life when its your Son, Daughter.....need I say more, I guess that is a dilemma.
IMHO UK SAR is not tasked more by Ambulance Control because that the SAR core function means these few units are mainly coastal based and often not ideally placed to be considered by ambulance control when it comes to activating the asset thats best for patient, its nothing personnal. AFAIK the RAF have never signed up to ORCON and what with the Seakings high speed characteristics they are sometimes tasked late when it is realised a winch is whats needed.
So, maybe a winch isn't a bad thing for some UK AA/Police units when its use will provide an extra tool and of course coupled with a comprehensive initial and continuation training package with defined SOPs at its centre.
The extra costs of the purchasing, fitting and training with said equipment is suprisingly not as much as you would think. I'm sure all of the UK AA units hard working team of fundraising volunteers efforts are always borne in mind in this day and age of Cost Vs Benefit. I cannot see one of these amazing folk saying that even if just one life was saved or whos suffering was lessened from having a winch this will of paid for itself ten times over. Is frittering costs relevant when it comes to one life when its your Son, Daughter.....need I say more, I guess that is a dilemma.
IMHO UK SAR is not tasked more by Ambulance Control because that the SAR core function means these few units are mainly coastal based and often not ideally placed to be considered by ambulance control when it comes to activating the asset thats best for patient, its nothing personnal. AFAIK the RAF have never signed up to ORCON and what with the Seakings high speed characteristics they are sometimes tasked late when it is realised a winch is whats needed.
So, maybe a winch isn't a bad thing for some UK AA/Police units when its use will provide an extra tool and of course coupled with a comprehensive initial and continuation training package with defined SOPs at its centre.
Crab,
For once I totally agree, especially with your last paragraph. In the summer we regularly see the Dorset & Somerset Air Ambulance going over the top of our hangar on its way to Portland Bill or some other exotic location on Portland. This is having left its base presumably, while we sit on the ground less than 3minutes flying time from the Bill. That is not what I would call good patient care!
But having said all that, we were used to take a cardiac patient from our base, having been delivered by land ambulance while the paramedic was still working on him, direct to Dorchester just before Christmas. That is the exception to the rule however.
For once I totally agree, especially with your last paragraph. In the summer we regularly see the Dorset & Somerset Air Ambulance going over the top of our hangar on its way to Portland Bill or some other exotic location on Portland. This is having left its base presumably, while we sit on the ground less than 3minutes flying time from the Bill. That is not what I would call good patient care!
But having said all that, we were used to take a cardiac patient from our base, having been delivered by land ambulance while the paramedic was still working on him, direct to Dorchester just before Christmas. That is the exception to the rule however.
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It all depends on what you call patient care, in most UK AA they have numerous pieces of equipment and drugs that you may not have on your aircraft, not to mention that they may have a doctor as part of the crew.
Also in the UK there are a lot of primary hospital landings sites (those directly outside A&E) that cannot accomodate a Seaking.
Whatevers best for the patient I think should apply.
Also in the UK there are a lot of primary hospital landings sites (those directly outside A&E) that cannot accomodate a Seaking.
Whatevers best for the patient I think should apply.
Thread Starter
Minself, I am sure the winching kit doesn't cost a lot to purchase and fit, but if you think that the training costs in terms of maintaining a safe and professional capability are cheap then you haven't done much winching.
My point about the 24 hour cover was that AAs should look first at providing that before they start strapping on winches as the benefit of night AA cover must be higher than being able to winch.
As to the patient - I am 100% with you that whatever is best for them is what should happen - unfortunately that is not what is happening at the moment.
I was at Wattisham recently when we attended an RTA and the patient was worked on for 25 minutes en route to Cambridge by 3 paramedics and a technician - not likely in an air ambulance!
You have me at a disadvantage as I do not know what ORCON is or why the RAF should need to sign up to it. I do know that we regularly fly paramedics from various NHS trusts so that they can see our capabilities and pass the information on to their controllers.
3D - the AA used to come all the way from Exeter to land on Saunton Sands, so I know exactly what you mean.
This is not a dig at AAs as they do sterling and valuable work - I just think that crossing over into winching ops is a step in the wrong direction.
My point about the 24 hour cover was that AAs should look first at providing that before they start strapping on winches as the benefit of night AA cover must be higher than being able to winch.
As to the patient - I am 100% with you that whatever is best for them is what should happen - unfortunately that is not what is happening at the moment.
I was at Wattisham recently when we attended an RTA and the patient was worked on for 25 minutes en route to Cambridge by 3 paramedics and a technician - not likely in an air ambulance!
You have me at a disadvantage as I do not know what ORCON is or why the RAF should need to sign up to it. I do know that we regularly fly paramedics from various NHS trusts so that they can see our capabilities and pass the information on to their controllers.
3D - the AA used to come all the way from Exeter to land on Saunton Sands, so I know exactly what you mean.
This is not a dig at AAs as they do sterling and valuable work - I just think that crossing over into winching ops is a step in the wrong direction.
I have heard quite a few rumours that the new Met Police 145's will be used for more of a paramilitary / police role, 2 crew, winch equipped - Presumably in light of the terrorist threat and imminent olympics. I have flown for both the military and police, and can't help but think that the 2 should be kept apart. Street policing to be done by civilian pilots, and winching / absailing (anti-terrorist work) to be conducted by dedicated military crews who are well practiced in this role.
Of course, as I stated above, this could all be the rumour mill at work, but I believe that police forces in other European cities take on these additional responsibilites, so it isn't entirely over active imaginations !
Of course, as I stated above, this could all be the rumour mill at work, but I believe that police forces in other European cities take on these additional responsibilites, so it isn't entirely over active imaginations !
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okay, I appreciate the military and those civilian SAR units are the experts and currency and competency are two different things but I disagree with your opionion that winching is a step in the wrong direction for UK AA and that they should concentrate on 24hr operations first.
I might not have done much winching (well recently anyway) but I can assure you night AA operations are disproportionately more expensive than more day hours added to a unit hours bill. As night operations require the operator to jump through several more hoops when it comes to equiping the aircraft for night operations and training the crew, also there is the landing at ad hoc sites with the increased risk involved. There is also a lack of night capable hospital landing sites as civilian regulations require the HLSs to be lit with obstruction protection which operators have to conform to in CAA and JAR regulations before night landings are allowed.
I stick with the view that winching is an extra tool to aid patient rescue if used correctly to save time and benefit the patient, if the UK AA units wish to spend their money on winches then i'm sure this will result in them saving more lives without threatening anyone elses empires.
MS
I might not have done much winching (well recently anyway) but I can assure you night AA operations are disproportionately more expensive than more day hours added to a unit hours bill. As night operations require the operator to jump through several more hoops when it comes to equiping the aircraft for night operations and training the crew, also there is the landing at ad hoc sites with the increased risk involved. There is also a lack of night capable hospital landing sites as civilian regulations require the HLSs to be lit with obstruction protection which operators have to conform to in CAA and JAR regulations before night landings are allowed.
I stick with the view that winching is an extra tool to aid patient rescue if used correctly to save time and benefit the patient, if the UK AA units wish to spend their money on winches then i'm sure this will result in them saving more lives without threatening anyone elses empires.
MS
Crab: Small correction there - one can work very comfortably on a patient in an Ec135 (and I would surmise a 902 also). It's not a bolkow 105 you know! There are (in my experience as a HEMS driver (also)) no restrictions working on casualties en route (including defib in an a/c).
The current crop of 'new' generation light helicopters (<3175Kg) in the emergency services configuration would struggle to fit a winch. They take up an inordinate amount of vital payload...something that should be reserved for the primary role of the police/AA Unit.
They aren't cheap (£150,000).
Both of these are surmountable though given an incentive.
What isn't surmountable is the legislation. Jar Ops 3 (HEMS and AA Ops) and CAA (Police Ops) won't allow commercial operations to train in an aircraft that can't sustain SSE in the hover during winching trng...end of story.
The EC145 hasn't a hope in hell of SSE in the hover!!!
The 109S could/might just do it at the right WAT.
But there is only one emergency services 109 in the country.
Ways round it: Fly outside the national rules - Paramilitary rules.
And that my friends is a whole new can of worms
The Met were looking at responding to the terrorist threat primarily, rather than winching stranded fishermen from the Thames!!! Even this is a no go from the CAA (In their current 'commercial' configuration).
Anyway there is insufficient call for coastal SAR from the Police / AA. Thats why we have the coastguard and the bloody RAF
The current crop of 'new' generation light helicopters (<3175Kg) in the emergency services configuration would struggle to fit a winch. They take up an inordinate amount of vital payload...something that should be reserved for the primary role of the police/AA Unit.
They aren't cheap (£150,000).
Both of these are surmountable though given an incentive.
What isn't surmountable is the legislation. Jar Ops 3 (HEMS and AA Ops) and CAA (Police Ops) won't allow commercial operations to train in an aircraft that can't sustain SSE in the hover during winching trng...end of story.
The EC145 hasn't a hope in hell of SSE in the hover!!!
The 109S could/might just do it at the right WAT.
But there is only one emergency services 109 in the country.
Ways round it: Fly outside the national rules - Paramilitary rules.
And that my friends is a whole new can of worms
The Met were looking at responding to the terrorist threat primarily, rather than winching stranded fishermen from the Thames!!! Even this is a no go from the CAA (In their current 'commercial' configuration).
Anyway there is insufficient call for coastal SAR from the Police / AA. Thats why we have the coastguard and the bloody RAF
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Its not the coastal SAR that any prospective Police/AA unit would want to dabble in, its more of the stranded climber on a steep sided hill or maybe a injured walker in a clearing in a wood, all well in land, critically more minutes away from a coastal SAR unit. The RAF and civil SAR operators are far too proficient in all that stuff offshore 
I think the regulations governing winch training could be rewritten if a strong enough proposal was put forward. Who would of thought years ago that RAF SAR would be greatly reduced and civilianised. Regulations change all the time so lets watch this space.
IMHO its about getting the best asset to the patient within the best response time with the best capability and if this is a winch equiped police/AA aircraft with a suitably trained crew then its a good thing, adding to existing assets not trying to replace them.
I think the regulations governing winch training could be rewritten if a strong enough proposal was put forward. Who would of thought years ago that RAF SAR would be greatly reduced and civilianised. Regulations change all the time so lets watch this space.
IMHO its about getting the best asset to the patient within the best response time with the best capability and if this is a winch equiped police/AA aircraft with a suitably trained crew then its a good thing, adding to existing assets not trying to replace them.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Minself, I am sure the winching kit doesn't cost a lot to purchase and fit, but if you think that the training costs in terms of maintaining a safe and professional capability are cheap then you haven't done much winching.
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When we did winching in the Puma, we were not SSE in the hover. In Belize at high AUW we were hardly SSE in the cruise at times!! Hot and high, it seemed like the only place you were going was down, albeit slowly.
A winch is a piece of role equipment, thats all. Think outside the box SARBoys, rescuing casualties is not the only thing you can use it for. The helicopters have been fitted with points for fast roping and other roles. Politics are involved, capabilities now have to be met by the police that used to be covered by other agencies. I am sure the Met did a big press release and a TV show about their new toys, including the perceived roles.
A winch is a piece of role equipment, thats all. Think outside the box SARBoys, rescuing casualties is not the only thing you can use it for. The helicopters have been fitted with points for fast roping and other roles. Politics are involved, capabilities now have to be met by the police that used to be covered by other agencies. I am sure the Met did a big press release and a TV show about their new toys, including the perceived roles.