Helicopter pilot saves fixed-wing pilot - Unbelievable sequel! (NOW UPDATED)
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Night Watchman
Operating company: No
Pilot: Possibly, but that’s a risk he was prepared to take in order to help. I’d like to think the CAA wouldn’t prosecute – but I’ve long given up trying to understand the thinking behind prosecution decisions by the CAA's Aviation Regulation Enforcement (ARE) and Legal departments.
‘Possible legal action from the paramedic's family for operating outside its AOC?’
No, not unless this theoretical accident was caused by the pilot’s negligence, in which case there’d be a cause of action regardless of the nature of the flight.
The CAA can’t and doesn’t investigate every report it receives. In theory, the Head of ARE takes into account whether investigation is proportionate to the (alleged) incident.
Nothing to follow up in this instance IMHO - except perhaps a letter from the CAA commending the pilot for his assistance to another aviator in distress. (I entirely agree with your final comment.)
Daifly
See response to NW above.
And, nothing did go wrong so the issue is hypothetical or, as some might say, a fuss about nothing.
‘The "well it didn't" argument is never one that's worked too well with the CAA.’
You’re right - unfortunately.
The capacity of some CAA ARE and prosecution people for imagining the horrendous things that might in theory have happened (but didn’t, of course) can sometimes make the most skilled ‘shock horror’ journalists seem like amateurs.
Unless I was specifically asked to, I certainly wouldn’t say the FI’s judgment was “clouded”. From what I've read, he seems to have acted perfectly reasonably throughout.
”the moment he diverted from the Flight Training sortie ………. then it became, I guess, a flight that he was being paid to operate”.
He wasn’t being paid to operate it. That’s not the angle the CAA would take if they wished to be difficult.
As for your post #82 ………. Blimey!
itsveryeasy
If by that you mean they are concerned/angry that their friend might be treated badly after behaving commendably, then I agree with you. Let’s hope it can all be forgotten as a ‘misunderstanding.’
thecontroller
A significant number of professional pilots in the UK would be even more ‘penniless’ if it wasn’t for wealthy people who can afford to learn to fly and/or be flown around in expensive toys.
A complete fuss about nothing IMHO.
Whatever was or wasn't said by the CP and/or the CAA Flight Ops Inspector, let's hope common sense ulrimately prevails.
FL
If, for example, the aircraft carrying the paramedic back to Goodwood was involved in an accident then would that not leave the operating company and pilot wide open to prosecution and possible legal action from the parmedic's family for operating outside its AOC? Perhaps Flying Lawyer could help on that one.
Pilot: Possibly, but that’s a risk he was prepared to take in order to help. I’d like to think the CAA wouldn’t prosecute – but I’ve long given up trying to understand the thinking behind prosecution decisions by the CAA's Aviation Regulation Enforcement (ARE) and Legal departments.
‘Possible legal action from the paramedic's family for operating outside its AOC?’
No, not unless this theoretical accident was caused by the pilot’s negligence, in which case there’d be a cause of action regardless of the nature of the flight.
The CAA are responsible for policing aviation and surely it is their job to follow this sort of thing up if it is brought to their attention.
Nothing to follow up in this instance IMHO - except perhaps a letter from the CAA commending the pilot for his assistance to another aviator in distress. (I entirely agree with your final comment.)
Daifly
If it were a public transport flight which wasn't being operated in accordance with the Ops Manual then it would have laid the company wide open if something had subsequently gone wrong (in this litigious world we live in).
And, nothing did go wrong so the issue is hypothetical or, as some might say, a fuss about nothing.
‘The "well it didn't" argument is never one that's worked too well with the CAA.’
You’re right - unfortunately.
The capacity of some CAA ARE and prosecution people for imagining the horrendous things that might in theory have happened (but didn’t, of course) can sometimes make the most skilled ‘shock horror’ journalists seem like amateurs.
Unless I was specifically asked to, I certainly wouldn’t say the FI’s judgment was “clouded”. From what I've read, he seems to have acted perfectly reasonably throughout.
”the moment he diverted from the Flight Training sortie ………. then it became, I guess, a flight that he was being paid to operate”.
He wasn’t being paid to operate it. That’s not the angle the CAA would take if they wished to be difficult.
As for your post #82 ………. Blimey!
itsveryeasy
”….. Dom has never asked anyone to put these posts in, nor to reply to them ……….. The fact that his friends have speaks volumes about them”
thecontroller
A significant number of professional pilots in the UK would be even more ‘penniless’ if it wasn’t for wealthy people who can afford to learn to fly and/or be flown around in expensive toys.
A complete fuss about nothing IMHO.
Whatever was or wasn't said by the CP and/or the CAA Flight Ops Inspector, let's hope common sense ulrimately prevails.
FL
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What a thread!
Maybe if the comapny concerned decided to confirm via their website linked through here (maybe) that they would not charge Dom a penny, openly congratulate him for his bravery and integrity and stipulate that they are supporting him to the CAA no matter what was filed. Adding that the rumours on this thread are just that;
then that would be the common sense we all need.
Generally, the reason we all feel so strongly about this is that we are level headed people who take the welfare of other pilots seriously and are willing to help in a serious situation,no matter what the rules are.
I hope that Dom gets the recognition he deserves .
Maybe if the comapny concerned decided to confirm via their website linked through here (maybe) that they would not charge Dom a penny, openly congratulate him for his bravery and integrity and stipulate that they are supporting him to the CAA no matter what was filed. Adding that the rumours on this thread are just that;
then that would be the common sense we all need.
Generally, the reason we all feel so strongly about this is that we are level headed people who take the welfare of other pilots seriously and are willing to help in a serious situation,no matter what the rules are.
I hope that Dom gets the recognition he deserves .
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I have only one reply to everyone:
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...plicationid=14
You have a little under a month...! Maybe someone can let me know Dom (I feel like he's an old friend now!)'s address or confirm that London Helicopter Centre is a good enough address?
I'll nominate him.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...plicationid=14
You have a little under a month...! Maybe someone can let me know Dom (I feel like he's an old friend now!)'s address or confirm that London Helicopter Centre is a good enough address?
I'll nominate him.
Sims Fly Virtually
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Daifly - I agree; if there had been a petrol leak (yeah' I know it didn't happen) the lady flying it could have been in a more than "unpleasant" situation 
. Being trapped in a petrol fire must be one of the worst ways to leave this world 
. And Dom, as well as whoever else assisted, could have been putting their own lives on the line.
My "vote" would be with yours.
So far we have had no confirmation that Dominic is being charged by what would be a very cold-hearted employer for the diversion/landing, or IF the CAA are taking action against him. In fact, there has been no input from the employer (apart from one poster who doesn't believe anything posted here)
Does anyone know what the current status is on this? Despite my (and probably other's) contacts with The Argus and the Beeb, it appears that they have been reluctant to pick it up. (Good news is easy to report; any controversy might need the Legal Department
)
Dominic - if anyone can pass this on - I hope that all of your worries are history by the time Christmas comes around. If not, you know that you have friends (both flying and non-flying) who are thinking of you and who appreciate your actions as being humanitarian, Christian - and right
. Being trapped in a petrol fire must be one of the worst ways to leave this world . And Dom, as well as whoever else assisted, could have been putting their own lives on the line.My "vote" would be with yours.
So far we have had no confirmation that Dominic is being charged by what would be a very cold-hearted employer for the diversion/landing, or IF the CAA are taking action against him. In fact, there has been no input from the employer (apart from one poster who doesn't believe anything posted here)
Does anyone know what the current status is on this? Despite my (and probably other's) contacts with The Argus and the Beeb, it appears that they have been reluctant to pick it up. (Good news is easy to report; any controversy might need the Legal Department
)Dominic - if anyone can pass this on - I hope that all of your worries are history by the time Christmas comes around. If not, you know that you have friends (both flying and non-flying) who are thinking of you and who appreciate your actions as being humanitarian, Christian - and right
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I have discussed this matter with the Head of Aviation Regulation Enforcement at the CAA.
ARE is the department which investigates alleged breaches of aviation regulations.
I am pleased to post (with his consent) that, if the facts are as reported here,
he will not seek to prosecute the helicopter pilot who went to the assistance of the fixed-wing pilot in distress and thereafter assisted the emergency services.
Tudor Owen
ARE is the department which investigates alleged breaches of aviation regulations.
I am pleased to post (with his consent) that, if the facts are as reported here,
he will not seek to prosecute the helicopter pilot who went to the assistance of the fixed-wing pilot in distress and thereafter assisted the emergency services.
Tudor Owen
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 20th Dec 2006 at 16:36.
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Sims Fly Virtually
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All Clear!
I gather from the above, and from a couple of PMs that this matter is now fully put-to-bed in all quarters.
But I still agree that Dominic should get some sort of commendation - perhaps he has, the best sort, from his peers!
(and I understand that he's following this thread - Bloody well done mate!)
And FL - I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts - another
But I still agree that Dominic should get some sort of commendation - perhaps he has, the best sort, from his peers!
(and I understand that he's following this thread - Bloody well done mate!)
And FL - I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts - another
I was not going to comment on this thread but feel the need to add a balanced opinion. I am in no way criticizing or passing judgement on the chap involved in this as, apart from what is mentioned here I know nothing of his experience, qualifications or ability. All I want to do is mention the pitfalls (which may be fairly obvious) to future 'have a go' heroes.
Providing support to an incident like this may not always be as straightforward as it seems. The adrenaline rushes (even for the pros) and you can be led down a path you don't want to go, rushing into a landing site, not looking out properly as you are being distracted (did you see the other chap circling overhead who also came to help?) landing too close to the incident and blowing the crap out of it, getting in the way of the emergency services (you didn't shut down next to the only gate into the field did you?). All these things I have done (and there are many more) and things learnt from experience that I will never do again.
This doesn't even go into the medical aspects and I may take issue with the nurse/paramedic definition earlier. I may actually prefer to wait for a specialist to arrive, in certain circumstances, than the local doctor doing his best. I have seen people incorrectly pronounced dead before due to the unfamiliarity of the situation and the desire to help. Was the aircraft likely to catch fire? Were the occupants actually in a life threatening position in the upside down aircraft? Obviously dragging them out of the wreckage could kill them (or at least paralyse) if you aren't careful. If you are medically qualified and you mess up because you are in a situation you are not used to then you may be open for prosecution.
If the pilot (for whatever reason - good or bad) strays outside the law, as laid down by the CAA, and it hits the press do you not think that it would be prudent for the CP to report it? Maybe he made a judgement call that the CAA would throw it out, but would they be so understanding of someone who blatantly ignored their responsibilty as an air operator to report transgressions of the law?
Please don't take this as any criticism, just food for thought. It may be that the pilot involved was fully aware of all this (and maybe even more aware than I am). Also, anyone else reading this thread, please do not take my comments as an excuse to 'walk on by' if you are in a similar situation but please think before you act, take your time and be careful. It may be me in the wreckage one day and I would be grateful for someone to stop and help! I am fortunate that I am free to use my aircraft as I see fit in these circumstances and have the support of my bosses to do so, it may not be quite so straightforward for you.
Providing support to an incident like this may not always be as straightforward as it seems. The adrenaline rushes (even for the pros) and you can be led down a path you don't want to go, rushing into a landing site, not looking out properly as you are being distracted (did you see the other chap circling overhead who also came to help?) landing too close to the incident and blowing the crap out of it, getting in the way of the emergency services (you didn't shut down next to the only gate into the field did you?). All these things I have done (and there are many more) and things learnt from experience that I will never do again.
This doesn't even go into the medical aspects and I may take issue with the nurse/paramedic definition earlier. I may actually prefer to wait for a specialist to arrive, in certain circumstances, than the local doctor doing his best. I have seen people incorrectly pronounced dead before due to the unfamiliarity of the situation and the desire to help. Was the aircraft likely to catch fire? Were the occupants actually in a life threatening position in the upside down aircraft? Obviously dragging them out of the wreckage could kill them (or at least paralyse) if you aren't careful. If you are medically qualified and you mess up because you are in a situation you are not used to then you may be open for prosecution.
If the pilot (for whatever reason - good or bad) strays outside the law, as laid down by the CAA, and it hits the press do you not think that it would be prudent for the CP to report it? Maybe he made a judgement call that the CAA would throw it out, but would they be so understanding of someone who blatantly ignored their responsibilty as an air operator to report transgressions of the law?
Please don't take this as any criticism, just food for thought. It may be that the pilot involved was fully aware of all this (and maybe even more aware than I am). Also, anyone else reading this thread, please do not take my comments as an excuse to 'walk on by' if you are in a similar situation but please think before you act, take your time and be careful. It may be me in the wreckage one day and I would be grateful for someone to stop and help! I am fortunate that I am free to use my aircraft as I see fit in these circumstances and have the support of my bosses to do so, it may not be quite so straightforward for you.
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FL - Not for one minute suggesting that you would/could influence the CAA
But your supportive attitude,advice and offer off help were, I am sure, an example to us all.
SAR Bloke - All comments noted, and taken in the spirit that they were offered (before someone "half-reads" and starts flaming.
In this instance (not knowing otherwise) let's assume that the helo was put down and shut down in the right place,and that the FW Pilot was completely uninjured, apart from scratches etc, and there was a concern about leaking fuel.
However, your warnings appreciated, and although I'm never going to be in Dominic's situation, I'll remember them in the event of coming across an RTA
But your supportive attitude,advice and offer off help were, I am sure, an example to us all.
SAR Bloke - All comments noted, and taken in the spirit that they were offered (before someone "half-reads" and starts flaming.
In this instance (not knowing otherwise) let's assume that the helo was put down and shut down in the right place,and that the FW Pilot was completely uninjured, apart from scratches etc, and there was a concern about leaking fuel.
However, your warnings appreciated, and although I'm never going to be in Dominic's situation, I'll remember them in the event of coming across an RTA
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Thecontroller,
Perhaps the MOR is yet to reach the CAA ARE bod spoken to by FL. In which case (as reported by FL) if the MOR contents match the comments on this thread then no action will be taken.
Nothing to say the CAA take any notice of Pprune, but a positive reply most definitely helps pour oil on troubled waters.
Perhaps the MOR is yet to reach the CAA ARE bod spoken to by FL. In which case (as reported by FL) if the MOR contents match the comments on this thread then no action will be taken.
Nothing to say the CAA take any notice of Pprune, but a positive reply most definitely helps pour oil on troubled waters.
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I have followed this thread with amusement (because it wasn't me in the hot seat) and also with a full wonder at how human systems can get so wrong-headed.
One way to be sure it doesn't happen again is to have the entire student body of that school in question demand to see a public apology from the dunderhead chief pilot addressed to the quick-thinking hero. A modern day turn in the stocks, of a sort. If not, I am sure that a 30 to 50% reduction in student attendence/fees/hours would elicit a response. After all, the school works for the students, doesn't it?
One way to be sure it doesn't happen again is to have the entire student body of that school in question demand to see a public apology from the dunderhead chief pilot addressed to the quick-thinking hero. A modern day turn in the stocks, of a sort. If not, I am sure that a 30 to 50% reduction in student attendence/fees/hours would elicit a response. After all, the school works for the students, doesn't it?
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My summary of my conversation with the Head of ARE was intentionally brief.
Just be happy for a fellow pilot.
I've frequently been very critical of decisions by ARE (and by the CAA's legal department) about specific cases and of the CAA's prosecuting policy in general - on PPRuNe and elsewhere. However, when (as in this case) an entirely sensible decision is made, I am very happy to say so publicly.
Please bear in mind that the Head of ARE was prepared to tell me the approach he'd take in this case. He was under no obligation to do so, nor did he have to agree to my posting it here. I'm grateful to him for both.
FL
Just be happy for a fellow pilot.
I've frequently been very critical of decisions by ARE (and by the CAA's legal department) about specific cases and of the CAA's prosecuting policy in general - on PPRuNe and elsewhere. However, when (as in this case) an entirely sensible decision is made, I am very happy to say so publicly.
Please bear in mind that the Head of ARE was prepared to tell me the approach he'd take in this case. He was under no obligation to do so, nor did he have to agree to my posting it here. I'm grateful to him for both.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 21st Dec 2006 at 19:15.
All the folks nominated deserve congratulations for their deeds. I am glad I am not a judge.....it would be very difficult to decide a single winner.
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SASless
I totally aquiese with you and would like to take this opportunity to wish all the nominees every success at the awards!
However, Dominic Underdown is very good friend of mine and therefore
I am biased and would like to firstly wish him congratulations with his nomination, and secondly to say that if anyone deserves to win this award for his outstanding bravery, courage and determination to assist
the victim and to provide immediate first aid etc.. it's Dominic!
Well done buddy!!!!!
However, Dominic Underdown is very good friend of mine and therefore
I am biased and would like to firstly wish him congratulations with his nomination, and secondly to say that if anyone deserves to win this award for his outstanding bravery, courage and determination to assist
the victim and to provide immediate first aid etc.. it's Dominic!
Well done buddy!!!!!
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I had the good fortune to meet Dom for the first time a few weeks ago.
The subject of this incident came up, and I for one and glad he has been nominated. Good on you for your actions IMHO.
Gary Spender
The subject of this incident came up, and I for one and glad he has been nominated. Good on you for your actions IMHO.
Gary Spender