PPLs playing CPLs
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this same discussion has been going on and on in Germany as well.... for years now!!
The rules say that the COMMERCIAL flying of persons and freight need an AOC. So you first have to define commercial. Then there are the non-commercial flights for compensation (no matter what kind). These also need special permission from the authorities-that-be, unless it is in an aircraft with a maximum of 4 seats. This exception was done to allow air clubs to do some intro flights, etc. Following this last sentence, many commercials balloonists have stopped doing their flights "legally" and just keep doing flights (with payed pax and 4-person basket), making the "legal" companies very upset.
So, the powers-that-be (CAA) and courts tried to define "commercial" and came up with the following (roughly translated):
1) acting for ones self and own risk
2) permanent and repetive action
3) for compensation of any kind
4) hoping for profits, whether profits are actually attained or not
under no. 2 falls advertising... if you put up a notice for the flights like: "let me fly you somewhere... cheap!" and a telephone number, that's commercial.
So, the above rule would allow ferry flights with private aircraft to a certain extent. But round-robin flights or any other flights for hire are not allowed!
Now, how does the CAA prove wrong doing? The paper work doesn't show anything so it's often not possible. Only if you are caught with advertising can there be (possible) proof. Or after an accident.....
oh, and then check the wording on your licence.... it may state non-commercial right on it (may be different from country to country).
I think this is an international problem and it would be interesting to see how other countries handle it.
Westy
The rules say that the COMMERCIAL flying of persons and freight need an AOC. So you first have to define commercial. Then there are the non-commercial flights for compensation (no matter what kind). These also need special permission from the authorities-that-be, unless it is in an aircraft with a maximum of 4 seats. This exception was done to allow air clubs to do some intro flights, etc. Following this last sentence, many commercials balloonists have stopped doing their flights "legally" and just keep doing flights (with payed pax and 4-person basket), making the "legal" companies very upset.
So, the powers-that-be (CAA) and courts tried to define "commercial" and came up with the following (roughly translated):
1) acting for ones self and own risk
2) permanent and repetive action
3) for compensation of any kind
4) hoping for profits, whether profits are actually attained or not
under no. 2 falls advertising... if you put up a notice for the flights like: "let me fly you somewhere... cheap!" and a telephone number, that's commercial.
So, the above rule would allow ferry flights with private aircraft to a certain extent. But round-robin flights or any other flights for hire are not allowed!
Now, how does the CAA prove wrong doing? The paper work doesn't show anything so it's often not possible. Only if you are caught with advertising can there be (possible) proof. Or after an accident.....
oh, and then check the wording on your licence.... it may state non-commercial right on it (may be different from country to country).
I think this is an international problem and it would be interesting to see how other countries handle it.
Westy
Last edited by WestWind1950; 28th Nov 2006 at 12:35.
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PPLs Playing CPLs
I'm reading this thread with interest simply because there seems to be a lot of effort being put into something that I was not aware was a significant problem.
I think the original statement is being confused with Public Transport issues of what is, and what isn't, and also with ficticious and often amusing scenarios (that's what I love about helicopter pilots). There is also an underlying tone in the thread saying..."who cares?"
Well, I care, where safety is compromised. I don't really care that a PPL gets to log an extra hour or two, free of charge, because he ferried an aircraft from A to B or because he was in the right place at the right time and got to do something different. But if that PPL is flying a task that is blatantly for reward, then that should be flown by a commercial pilot who may not be more experienced, but certainly has a greater degree of training and qualification. Reward of any kind will be taken into consideration at the subsequent court proceedings if there is an accident, whether it be cash or not. And the insurance company will be rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation of rule-breaking.
It is very difficult, as many have already stated, to define the limits, therefore, education has a key role. Those PPLs operating on the grey edges of the envelope really ought to seek advice if they are not sure of their licence privileges. Those operating for blatant reward should be nailed to the wall, and the people who paid the reward should be nailed beside them.
If you know of these supposed cases where PPLs are flying as CPLs, times, dates, names, aircraft registrations, client name etc etc. will all add weight to a possible response by the Authority. If all you have is a name or a hunch, forget it.
Let's not become distracted by looking at PPLs with suspicion, they deserve the excitement of challenge and the opportunity to do something different.
I think the original statement is being confused with Public Transport issues of what is, and what isn't, and also with ficticious and often amusing scenarios (that's what I love about helicopter pilots). There is also an underlying tone in the thread saying..."who cares?"
Well, I care, where safety is compromised. I don't really care that a PPL gets to log an extra hour or two, free of charge, because he ferried an aircraft from A to B or because he was in the right place at the right time and got to do something different. But if that PPL is flying a task that is blatantly for reward, then that should be flown by a commercial pilot who may not be more experienced, but certainly has a greater degree of training and qualification. Reward of any kind will be taken into consideration at the subsequent court proceedings if there is an accident, whether it be cash or not. And the insurance company will be rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation of rule-breaking.
It is very difficult, as many have already stated, to define the limits, therefore, education has a key role. Those PPLs operating on the grey edges of the envelope really ought to seek advice if they are not sure of their licence privileges. Those operating for blatant reward should be nailed to the wall, and the people who paid the reward should be nailed beside them.
If you know of these supposed cases where PPLs are flying as CPLs, times, dates, names, aircraft registrations, client name etc etc. will all add weight to a possible response by the Authority. If all you have is a name or a hunch, forget it.
Let's not become distracted by looking at PPLs with suspicion, they deserve the excitement of challenge and the opportunity to do something different.
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I have just re-read the opening post on this thread from Aft Cyclic (who seems to have pulled the pin and gone to ground!
.
OK.... You imply you are aware of many more serious issues than the grey areas of ferry flights etc. Please elaborate
I feel the need to address what seems to be a growing problem in our industry.Gone are the days when a PPL would be begging for ferry flights to build hours towards the CPL ticket.It now seems the rules and regs that we all know are just there for decoration,it seems now the new 'CPL' is the PPL. An ever increasing amount of these cowboys are out there in the field actively seeking work on a daily basis without any intention of ever sitting the CPL exams and it seems that they have an abundance of work due to private owners trying to offset the cost of running their machines
OK.... You imply you are aware of many more serious issues than the grey areas of ferry flights etc. Please elaborate
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Out of Hiding
Bladeslapper!!
Fortunately I have been busy and have been unable to view the replies to this thread.You have asked me to provide you with examples of what constitutes a PPL acting as a CPL.Well there is nothing new with what I have seen in the field,photography work and charter work being the main
mo's.Having read through the replies it seems that people are moving away from the whole point,why should there be an issue with ferrying and flying for friends without payment,this comes part and parcel with the industry.The issue is private pilots accepting payment for commercial operations.Do I know of people who are engaged in these activities?Yes!
Both owners and freelance PPLs.The financial reward seems to outweigh
the downside of being caught.The penalties are a farce,we are talking about illegal flights which therefor makes the insurance null in void!The
authority should approach this with a view to complete license loss,not unlike driving offences,but alas there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.When insurance companies become aware of certain activities
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action.We can all play a part in eradicating this
problem if we put our minds to it.
Fortunately I have been busy and have been unable to view the replies to this thread.You have asked me to provide you with examples of what constitutes a PPL acting as a CPL.Well there is nothing new with what I have seen in the field,photography work and charter work being the main
mo's.Having read through the replies it seems that people are moving away from the whole point,why should there be an issue with ferrying and flying for friends without payment,this comes part and parcel with the industry.The issue is private pilots accepting payment for commercial operations.Do I know of people who are engaged in these activities?Yes!
Both owners and freelance PPLs.The financial reward seems to outweigh
the downside of being caught.The penalties are a farce,we are talking about illegal flights which therefor makes the insurance null in void!The
authority should approach this with a view to complete license loss,not unlike driving offences,but alas there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.When insurance companies become aware of certain activities
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action.We can all play a part in eradicating this
problem if we put our minds to it.
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That feels a bit more moderated and to the point...
Bladeslapper!!
Fortunately I have been busy and have been unable to view the replies to this thread.You have asked me to provide you with examples of what constitutes a PPL acting as a CPL.Well there is nothing new with what I have seen in the field,photography work and charter work being the main
mo's.Having read through the replies it seems that people are moving away from the whole point,why should there be an issue with ferrying and flying for friends without payment,this comes part and parcel with the industry.The issue is private pilots accepting payment for commercial operations.Do I know of people who are engaged in these activities?Yes!
Both owners and freelance PPLs.The financial reward seems to outweigh
the downside of being caught.The penalties are a farce,we are talking about illegal flights which therefor makes the insurance null in void!The
authority should approach this with a view to complete license loss,not unlike driving offences,but alas there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.When insurance companies become aware of certain activities
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action.We can all play a part in eradicating this
problem if we put our minds to it.
Fortunately I have been busy and have been unable to view the replies to this thread.You have asked me to provide you with examples of what constitutes a PPL acting as a CPL.Well there is nothing new with what I have seen in the field,photography work and charter work being the main
mo's.Having read through the replies it seems that people are moving away from the whole point,why should there be an issue with ferrying and flying for friends without payment,this comes part and parcel with the industry.The issue is private pilots accepting payment for commercial operations.Do I know of people who are engaged in these activities?Yes!
Both owners and freelance PPLs.The financial reward seems to outweigh
the downside of being caught.The penalties are a farce,we are talking about illegal flights which therefor makes the insurance null in void!The
authority should approach this with a view to complete license loss,not unlike driving offences,but alas there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.When insurance companies become aware of certain activities
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action.We can all play a part in eradicating this
problem if we put our minds to it.
In order to effectuate rules, the rules have to be clear - and they are NOT today. I don't care what people say (and many have done so here), they are unclear. It would be better to specify the actual mission types instead of mumbling about "for hire" or "for reward".
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In the FAR's the privilages for PPL are laid out, also the exceptions are stated too, before Heliport jumps on me for not stating exactly where it is in FAR, it is part 61.113.
When you read LASORS all you get is a reference to the ANO, and like most people I hate the ANO, so off to JAR FCL 2 which a lot of people have quoted already. Why in Europe do we have to search through so many publications to get a drfinitive answer? Actually, with all of that searching, you still only get a very broad statement about renumeration.
What we need is a calrification from the Authority, a letter of position sent to each PPL, then no-one can say 'nobody told me'.
Until then some people will choose to break the rules.
Lunar
When you read LASORS all you get is a reference to the ANO, and like most people I hate the ANO, so off to JAR FCL 2 which a lot of people have quoted already. Why in Europe do we have to search through so many publications to get a drfinitive answer? Actually, with all of that searching, you still only get a very broad statement about renumeration.
What we need is a calrification from the Authority, a letter of position sent to each PPL, then no-one can say 'nobody told me'.
Until then some people will choose to break the rules.
Lunar
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Lunar
My point was that you referred to "hire and reward" and were very surprised people who didn't agree with you hadn't looked at free online LASORS: I knew "hire and reward" wasn't the test and suspected, correctly as it turns out, that the rules aren't in LASORS.
You also claimed it was "simple", but I get the impression from your latest post you've changed your mind about that.
before Heliport jumps on me for not stating exactly where it is in FAR .....
You also claimed it was "simple", but I get the impression from your latest post you've changed your mind about that.
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Heliport,
It is simple, in the FAR it is easily understood. In the UK if you are willing to read enough there is an answer there. The JAR states that a PPL may not fly for renumeration, I would not have thought it was a large leap from there to 'hire or reward', the argument had become semantic.
The issue I had with your reply is that you took a lot to task for not being precise enough in their posts, you have a point, but is it the job of the poster to state the reg verbatim, or is the job of the pilot to know the privilages of his/her licence and where to find them?
I posted a link to LASORS, LASORS gives a ref to the ANO where a pilot could find their privilages, what more do you require?
I do think the Authority needs to clarify their position.
Lunar.
It is simple, in the FAR it is easily understood. In the UK if you are willing to read enough there is an answer there. The JAR states that a PPL may not fly for renumeration, I would not have thought it was a large leap from there to 'hire or reward', the argument had become semantic.
The issue I had with your reply is that you took a lot to task for not being precise enough in their posts, you have a point, but is it the job of the poster to state the reg verbatim, or is the job of the pilot to know the privilages of his/her licence and where to find them?
I posted a link to LASORS, LASORS gives a ref to the ANO where a pilot could find their privilages, what more do you require?
I do think the Authority needs to clarify their position.
Lunar.
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"When insurance companies become aware of certain activities
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action."
Lovely thought but what insurance company will want to turn away business. If you act outside your policy cover then you have no cover (maybe I'm wrong??). So keep paying your nice chunky premium and when everything goes putt putt oops bang, "I'm sorry for your trouble sir but you have invalidated your cover sir and we wish you well in court sir and it'll be like winning the lottery but in reverse so learn to sing the blues,sir "
I think the insurance companies will keep head down for this one.
you can be sure you will see a change in what is going on as they begin
press the authority's for action."
Lovely thought but what insurance company will want to turn away business. If you act outside your policy cover then you have no cover (maybe I'm wrong??). So keep paying your nice chunky premium and when everything goes putt putt oops bang, "I'm sorry for your trouble sir but you have invalidated your cover sir and we wish you well in court sir and it'll be like winning the lottery but in reverse so learn to sing the blues,sir "
I think the insurance companies will keep head down for this one.
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Don't invite the insurance company
The insurance company will put up their premiums due to a perceived increase of risk 
and then after an accident say no payout. The increased premiums hurt everyone. But I digress...
Photos are an interesting one. A PPL flys a helicopter and either him/her or a mate (pax) takes some photos. The photos later get sold as calender folio, etc. This would then be classed as a commercial operation, but at the time the photos were taken, it's just a photographer having some fun and seeing what works.
How can any regulator enforce this?
and then after an accident say no payout. The increased premiums hurt everyone. But I digress...Photos are an interesting one. A PPL flys a helicopter and either him/her or a mate (pax) takes some photos. The photos later get sold as calender folio, etc. This would then be classed as a commercial operation, but at the time the photos were taken, it's just a photographer having some fun and seeing what works.
How can any regulator enforce this?
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Since the begining of time some people have attempted to exploit grey areas of the rules and regs. Some people have always moaned about those people.
Instead of complaning sould we not seek to clarify the rules and regs.
Any one using a PPL for obvious commercial work is breaking the law, no ifs or buts.
I would also ask is alot of the moaning due to sour grapes?
Just my views.
Hi to those who know me.
Jarvy.
Instead of complaning sould we not seek to clarify the rules and regs.
Any one using a PPL for obvious commercial work is breaking the law, no ifs or buts.
I would also ask is alot of the moaning due to sour grapes?
Just my views.
Hi to those who know me.
Jarvy.
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Changing / clarifying rules would I believe just be tinkering at the edge.
We already have rules which for the law abiding overwhelming majority of PPLs work fine. (aguments over free ferry flights etc excepted )
For what must be the very few PPLs who flout the law now, by doing blatant charter etc (according to other posts) then please explain what will stop them in the rule changes. The illegal brigade will already know that what they are doing is outside their flight privileges, so clarification won't make any difference.
I come back to something I said before..... If you know someone is acting illegally then you have a responsibility to take it to the authorities in writing. If they choose not to do anything or feel there is insufficient evidence, so be it.
We already have rules which for the law abiding overwhelming majority of PPLs work fine. (aguments over free ferry flights etc excepted )
For what must be the very few PPLs who flout the law now, by doing blatant charter etc (according to other posts) then please explain what will stop them in the rule changes. The illegal brigade will already know that what they are doing is outside their flight privileges, so clarification won't make any difference.
I come back to something I said before..... If you know someone is acting illegally then you have a responsibility to take it to the authorities in writing. If they choose not to do anything or feel there is insufficient evidence, so be it.
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I agree that you should report someone you know to be doing illegal charter work but unless the CAA have the will to do something about it, nothing will get done.
I have been at events where PPL's have flown "friends" in and also where CPL,s have appeared to be doing charter work without an AOC.
Without concrete proof what can you report to the CAA, just heresay and rumour.
This is upto the CAA to police not us.
Jarvy
I have been at events where PPL's have flown "friends" in and also where CPL,s have appeared to be doing charter work without an AOC.
Without concrete proof what can you report to the CAA, just heresay and rumour.
This is upto the CAA to police not us.
Jarvy
