MD902 vs EC135
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Ah, did someone call?
Slag off the Explorer?
Why?
Most of what I said came to pass and a lot of backs are now turned against the type, not my choice or doing it was something quite predictable for quite a while.
If Mesa can keep its act together there may well be a new dawn but not yet this side of hand-wringing, dreams and 2007/08.
Meanwhile the customer has voted with their billfolds at a disparity level of about 5 to 1 [certainly not 10 to 1 even if you include all the alternatives].
Meanwhile, in the UK emergency services market at least, there are three clear choices [135,145 and Grand]. Until that situation alters the Explorer remains sidelined. Not dead, sidelined.
The Explorer [or something similar without an EC badge] is needed in the light twin market but whatever it is will be no good unless it works and works well.
Slag off the Explorer?
Why?
Most of what I said came to pass and a lot of backs are now turned against the type, not my choice or doing it was something quite predictable for quite a while.
If Mesa can keep its act together there may well be a new dawn but not yet this side of hand-wringing, dreams and 2007/08.
Meanwhile the customer has voted with their billfolds at a disparity level of about 5 to 1 [certainly not 10 to 1 even if you include all the alternatives].
Meanwhile, in the UK emergency services market at least, there are three clear choices [135,145 and Grand]. Until that situation alters the Explorer remains sidelined. Not dead, sidelined.
The Explorer [or something similar without an EC badge] is needed in the light twin market but whatever it is will be no good unless it works and works well.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: Kiwiland
Thanks Zorba,
Have trolled thru all that.What I wanted was guy's flying/or flown the types to comment.Have got some good gen
and some dribbling but thats the way it is.Appreciate the input anyway..thanks guys
Have trolled thru all that.What I wanted was guy's flying/or flown the types to comment.Have got some good gen
and some dribbling but thats the way it is.Appreciate the input anyway..thanks guys
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Cambridgeshire ordered their aircraft long before the s*** really hit the fan with MDHI. Allegedly it may well have cost someone their wings. Anyway a much delayed delivery [recently] has been into better times so lucky them - although they are not entirely clear and home free.
Yorkshire?
Yes spent some money and they will probably buy a second shortly but both were second hand and already over here. The price quoted in the Yorkshire Post for their purchase of their leased machine was shall we say 'extravagent' ... twice what HEMS were being offered for theirs. Therein lies another stoty.
Yes, there will be sales but what we are talking about for the survival of the Explorer are SALES... buying up a couple of old machines is not turning the corner, more like going round a bend!
This is domestic UK internal dealing with no feedback for MDHI. The survival of the type does not actually rely on what one air ambulance charity does week by week. Even Kent AAT's recent tender for new aircraft is thinking outside the box and they have loved their Explorer for as long as most.
Stand back a bit.
Yorkshire?
Yes spent some money and they will probably buy a second shortly but both were second hand and already over here. The price quoted in the Yorkshire Post for their purchase of their leased machine was shall we say 'extravagent' ... twice what HEMS were being offered for theirs. Therein lies another stoty.
Yes, there will be sales but what we are talking about for the survival of the Explorer are SALES... buying up a couple of old machines is not turning the corner, more like going round a bend!
This is domestic UK internal dealing with no feedback for MDHI. The survival of the type does not actually rely on what one air ambulance charity does week by week. Even Kent AAT's recent tender for new aircraft is thinking outside the box and they have loved their Explorer for as long as most.
Stand back a bit.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: UK
PANews I don't agree with your choices for the Emergency Services helicopter being just the 135,145 and the Grand. I don't have anything against these other types or those who operate them but them that operate the 902 rave about it too.
Its difficult to find 1 type that fulfills all the roles for a UK Emergency Service helicopter but I think the 902 is as good if not better a contender for the role. IMO its down to the needs of the operator but to dismiss the 902 as you do so is very blinkered, when you speak to those that have to operate the 902 they talk of its merits with the NOTAR, high set main rotor, fantastic forward visiblity and especially its large and quite cabin, if the customers happy alls well!
The problems you talk about are behind MD and to infer that they aren't is akin to saying that just as any new or old helicopter suffer periods of difficulty this will always make them second rate, regardless of how many years ago this was or the level of support to the operator in recent times.
Ms
Its difficult to find 1 type that fulfills all the roles for a UK Emergency Service helicopter but I think the 902 is as good if not better a contender for the role. IMO its down to the needs of the operator but to dismiss the 902 as you do so is very blinkered, when you speak to those that have to operate the 902 they talk of its merits with the NOTAR, high set main rotor, fantastic forward visiblity and especially its large and quite cabin, if the customers happy alls well!
The problems you talk about are behind MD and to infer that they aren't is akin to saying that just as any new or old helicopter suffer periods of difficulty this will always make them second rate, regardless of how many years ago this was or the level of support to the operator in recent times.
Ms
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 370
Likes: 18
From: Oman
What I wanted was guy's flying/or flown the types to comment
Why do you think units still buy the Explorer, second-hand or not? It is supremely good at what it is required to do. A shame about the historical troubles but on a purely operating level it is a good helicopter.
It's such a shame that you cannot be objective or unbiased about this. Do you get much funding from Eurocopter/Mcalpines?
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
From: uk
Dis-Mystery of Lift
So you have it... all the info that you requested.
So now what we want to know....What is your hoice based on the mirasma of users knowledge.
And tell us why you have chosen either the MD902 or the EC135....all the grizzly details for sure we want to know.
So you have it... all the info that you requested.
So now what we want to know....What is your hoice based on the mirasma of users knowledge.
And tell us why you have chosen either the MD902 or the EC135....all the grizzly details for sure we want to know.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
From: UK
Zorab mentioned the 135 T2i upgrade giving an extra 75Kg - Isn't anyone going to mention the 902 tail boom extension being offered as a "free" upgrade to exisiting users, and quote the extra MAUW figures ( 6500 lb ?? ) 
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
I do not meet the criteria, so I did not invite myself. I was mentioned so came in.
..................
Yes the 429 may well get a looking in, yes the Explorer may get a look in. But the manufacturers of both those types have gone on record as saying they will not be able to adequately service the market with new airframes before late 2007 or 2008. There is a suggestion that the needs of some might well precede that sort of dateline. So my list stands as given.
whoateallthepies I would severe exception to your statement that [the Explorer] is 'supremely good at what it is required to do' and then to mention the 'historical troubles'... that does not compute as a balanced statement even if only on the grounds of the 'troubles'.
No helicopter is 'supremely good' all are a compromise and this thread is supposed to be asking for ideas from ppruners about the good and bad points between two candidates to enable a choice to be made. 'Supremely good' suggests there is no choice, and is hardly a balanced assessment of anything aeronautical. On the contrary more than 501 customers say there is an alternative to the 'supreme' being. Or perhaps you think PAN bought them all up from massive profits as a scam just to wind you up!
Yet, on a 'purely operating level [the Explorer] is a good helicopter'. As reported it hasn't always operated!
Overall it just sounds like you are mighty biased towards a particular product which I rarely if ever knock on flying quality or capability. Reporting the problems - of which there have been a few - is not bias it's reporting.
Perhaps there are things I caused? Perhaps you think I have magical AOG powers?
And back to that age old juvenile finger pointing....
No, Eurocopter have never ever advertised in my publication. McAlpine, Eurocopter UK currently do not advertise in my publication, they like most of the the major manufacturers UK representatives and aircraft suppliers have advertised in the past. Both MDHI and Boeing have advertised the 520N and the 900 in the past.
And to top it all you have formed your very biased negative opinion on my reportage of perhaps 50 words in 50,000 by regularly reading PAN.
So I am well satisfied!!! That's all I ever asked of you.
PAN has given you a biased opinion!
..................
Yes the 429 may well get a looking in, yes the Explorer may get a look in. But the manufacturers of both those types have gone on record as saying they will not be able to adequately service the market with new airframes before late 2007 or 2008. There is a suggestion that the needs of some might well precede that sort of dateline. So my list stands as given.
whoateallthepies I would severe exception to your statement that [the Explorer] is 'supremely good at what it is required to do' and then to mention the 'historical troubles'... that does not compute as a balanced statement even if only on the grounds of the 'troubles'.
No helicopter is 'supremely good' all are a compromise and this thread is supposed to be asking for ideas from ppruners about the good and bad points between two candidates to enable a choice to be made. 'Supremely good' suggests there is no choice, and is hardly a balanced assessment of anything aeronautical. On the contrary more than 501 customers say there is an alternative to the 'supreme' being. Or perhaps you think PAN bought them all up from massive profits as a scam just to wind you up!
Yet, on a 'purely operating level [the Explorer] is a good helicopter'. As reported it hasn't always operated!
Overall it just sounds like you are mighty biased towards a particular product which I rarely if ever knock on flying quality or capability. Reporting the problems - of which there have been a few - is not bias it's reporting.
Perhaps there are things I caused? Perhaps you think I have magical AOG powers?
And back to that age old juvenile finger pointing....
No, Eurocopter have never ever advertised in my publication. McAlpine, Eurocopter UK currently do not advertise in my publication, they like most of the the major manufacturers UK representatives and aircraft suppliers have advertised in the past. Both MDHI and Boeing have advertised the 520N and the 900 in the past.
And to top it all you have formed your very biased negative opinion on my reportage of perhaps 50 words in 50,000 by regularly reading PAN.
So I am well satisfied!!! That's all I ever asked of you.
PAN has given you a biased opinion!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
From: UK
In the real world the support (or lack of it) that a manufacturer provides is and should be a major factor in choosing a hele where you need it to fly (rather than be a sexy static exhibit and/or ego extension). The other important issue is the required maintenance (scheduled and non) An extra 5 knots on VNE matters little if the bl**dy thing is in the hangar.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: Kiwiland
Sorry guys not my final decision...I can make recomendations but it's up to those that have the wallets in the end.By the way I will believe the 429 when it's sitting on the pad in front of me!!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 370
Likes: 18
From: Oman
I love it when someone bites! Especially when it's an anorak/helicopter groupie.
Some PANews quotes:-
Nice English. Look me old, it is, I've used it, when you have flown one come back to me. Don't argue semantics.
Oh no? How about this bit of disinformation?
There's a nicely balanced statement for you! But you are happy to promote that bit of disinformation? Typical journalist.
Where are your figures? No biased speculation there then. Ah, but that is explained at the end of this .
And when you sneered at Cambridge's choice of the EXplorer:-
No bias here? Cambridge obviously bought it just because it was cheap? No wonder 902 operators don't talk to you! -----
Again, top of the class for spelling.
And back to journalistic tendencies:-
I see now. You just spout what you like as long as you think it's close to the truth. That's OK then and it's up to us then to point out your errors. You could get a job with the Sun with that kind of journalism. Well done. You have made the transition from Helicopter anorak to full-fledged, make-it-up-as-you-go-along, journalist
Some PANews quotes:-
I would severe exception to your statement that [the Explorer] is 'supremely good at what it is required to do'
Overall it just sounds like you are mighty biased towards a particular product which I rarely if ever knock on flying quality or capability
Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!
I never said I believed the myth about tail rotor authority!
900s break as often as the other airframes [well maybe a bit more often]
And when you sneered at Cambridge's choice of the EXplorer:-
clearly before choosing the Explorer above all others because it was ‘Cheap as chips’
It is an unfortunate twist that no 900 unit is among those that voluntarile send me material.
And back to journalistic tendencies:-
one lone journo was consistently saying nasty, unpalatable, things [that he thinks were regularly close to the truth]
Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
In which case its down to you to point out the errors.
In which case its down to you to point out the errors.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Whoateallthepies....
Perhaps you should get out more.
Did you really sit down and compile all that lot... were you ever really that bored...
I guess a few of those were taken out of context... and of course you left out the other bits where I moaned about restricted headroom in the rear of both the EC135, 145 and 109, aris pots problems and a few other gems because I guess they do not fit in with your assumption that I have a highly developed slag onto the Explorer alone.
But other than that I recognise the style of writing so I certainly cannot be ar**d to go and pull together where you might have over-laboured the context.
So you win, I am wrong.
I hereby declare that the UK EC135 does not regularly achieve well over 95% availability [as the police forces concerned announced] and the Explorer fleet significantly lower [as at least one police authority report announced], the MD has never crashed through a Notar failure [as reported by NTSB], that the Dutch got out of the programme, and of course I am witholding the news that there are 400 potential operators waiting to buy the MD900 with delivery of all of them by Christmas 2006.
Most of the other 'severe moans' are about typos.... perhaps Pprune should let us have a spell-checker or expect to to get our touch typing accurate!
Perhaps you should get out more.
Did you really sit down and compile all that lot... were you ever really that bored...
I guess a few of those were taken out of context... and of course you left out the other bits where I moaned about restricted headroom in the rear of both the EC135, 145 and 109, aris pots problems and a few other gems because I guess they do not fit in with your assumption that I have a highly developed slag onto the Explorer alone.
But other than that I recognise the style of writing so I certainly cannot be ar**d to go and pull together where you might have over-laboured the context.
So you win, I am wrong.
I hereby declare that the UK EC135 does not regularly achieve well over 95% availability [as the police forces concerned announced] and the Explorer fleet significantly lower [as at least one police authority report announced], the MD has never crashed through a Notar failure [as reported by NTSB], that the Dutch got out of the programme, and of course I am witholding the news that there are 400 potential operators waiting to buy the MD900 with delivery of all of them by Christmas 2006.
Most of the other 'severe moans' are about typos.... perhaps Pprune should let us have a spell-checker or expect to to get our touch typing accurate!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 370
Likes: 18
From: Oman
PANews
One fact I won't dispute.
However, it doesn't take long to pull a few quotes from a history of postings. There is plenty of ammunition there.
Your perception is that I am biased towards the explorer because of my posts. In fact that's not the case but that's your perception and I'm happy to leave it there.
My perception (and that of many of my professional colleagues) is that you are biased towards Eurocopter products based on many years of reading your excellent publication. I know you vehemently deny it but I'm afraid that is the perception from what has been written
As a journalist it should be a matter of pride, surely, that your grammar and spelling are correct? It detracts from your posts otherwise.
Perhaps you should get out more.
However, it doesn't take long to pull a few quotes from a history of postings. There is plenty of ammunition there.
Your perception is that I am biased towards the explorer because of my posts. In fact that's not the case but that's your perception and I'm happy to leave it there.
My perception (and that of many of my professional colleagues) is that you are biased towards Eurocopter products based on many years of reading your excellent publication. I know you vehemently deny it but I'm afraid that is the perception from what has been written
As a journalist it should be a matter of pride, surely, that your grammar and spelling are correct? It detracts from your posts otherwise.
Last edited by whoateallthepies; 29th September 2006 at 04:43.