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Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?

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Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?

Old 3rd Aug 2006, 07:42
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Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?

Ladies/Gents. I have a question regarding the future MCA SAR contract.
It appears to me that there is going to be a shortage of rear crew available to CHC once they take-over (if the rumours about Bristows cross-overs, etc are true). Therefore, where are CHC going to recruit all their new guys from and who is going to do the basic intro to SAR training? I'm guessing that CHC aren't going to use expensive AW139 and S92 hours for this.
My guess is that there is going to be some work for SARTU.
Also, there a number of potential SAR crewmen out there in the wilderness who want to know how to pre-qualify themselves for future SAR jobs with CHC (or anyone else who might win the UK SAR(H) contract). Does anyone have any info on this?

AT
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 09:16
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Wink Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?

Arctic Tern

The problem that CHC have inherited from Bristow’s, is that most of the Bristow rearcrew are in the twilight of their flying careers. So where do you get the extra rearcrew/winchops/winchmen from??

Option 1 . Train new guys, expensive and risky

Option 2 . Recruit from the RAF or RN. Most of the guys have taken the extra money and are tied for the the next 5 years and are waiting for their pensions.

Option 3 . Poach from another company. What a good idea. The only other company is Bond and the guys on the Jigsaw contract; they are young, flying current SAR duties and are medically trained to the same standard as the Forces. They’re also trained on a modern aircraft.
Perhaps this is why 5 of them are going for an interview with CHC , I’m sure the CHC cheque book clout will lure them away as well as allowing CHC to put one over their up and coming rivals.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 14:15
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Suitable Operators..............

How about,


Police trained observers, not winch trained I know but well versed in flir/nvg etc. Flying in crap weather.

Give them an Atlas Reed/CHC winching course..............

Whats the verdict You decide ?
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 15:13
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Perhaps this is why 5 of them are going for an interview with CHC , Iím sure the CHC cheque book clout will lure them away as well as allowing CHC to put one over their up and coming rivals
I think you will find that the Jigsaw rearcrew are on extremely good salaries not that anyone will be likely to divulge exact figures on here. What could lure them is the opportunity to do some "real" SAR but the CG contracts are pretty quiet these days.

In terms of training, winchmen can be trained from any walk of life provided they have the right aptitude and attitude - the military guys don't arrive at the Squadron already trained. For winch ops it is more difficult as more experience is required and that can only be found by either very long training courses (uneconomical) or on the job training. Training experienced winchmen is definately the way forward but it is definately "chicken and egg".
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 16:17
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C'mon Arctic, we all know who you are, just ring CHC and offer to do the training for them! Nothing Ventured........
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 17:14
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Great Idea Doorstopper. Can't believe I didn't think of that. Its just come to me.... a quick HHO Basic Course to establish whether the potential employees have the aptitude for the job, some focussed screening of candidates and a recommendation for suitable role (ie Winchman or Hoist Op). All flying done on a cheap twin or even a reliable single. All sounds very sensible. It'll never catch on. Of course you may be incorrectly assuming I know what I'm talking about.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 19:32
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Devil CHC vs Bond

Cyclic

I agree the Bond/Jigsaw boys are probably on good money, but i'm sure CHC have more than enough dosh in the bank to match their pay or even better it, also as you say the lure of more SAR jobs might tip the balance.
2 weeks on an oil rig vs a proper SAR job... erm let me think!!!!
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 20:17
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and are medically trained to the same standard as the Forces
Are you suggesting that Jigsaw winchmen are Paramedic registered.

In terms of training, winchmen can be trained from any walk of life provided they have the right aptitude and attitude - the military guys don't arrive at the Squadron already trained. For winch ops it is more difficult as more experience is required and that can only be found by either very long training courses
Whilst indeed true, Mil winchman training is also long and intensive. To fully train a RAF winchman takes over 2 1/2 years (not including basic training).

Police trained observers, not winch trained I know but well versed in flir/nvg etc. Flying in crap weather.
Chalk and cheese.

What do you class as crap weather? When was the last time you saw a police helicopter (not that you would be able to see it) grovelling through the mountains at night on NVG with 200m viz and 100 ft cloudbase. Also you would have to be trained to use radar and operate a winch. The latter is not a quick look at winch in or winch but takes a long time to learn (minimum of a year for Mil winch ops).

What I am trying to say is that you cannot pick up Joe Bloggs from the street and train them in a couple of months no matter what their background. I hope they have taken into account the cost of very long training course for each of their untrained rearcrew!! (or they are happy to accept a low standard).
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 20:42
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Whopper

As you may or may not know, it isn't always the rig, in fact they can see a "real" SAR unit from the hangar! Anyway, two weeks at home is better than being full time in Shetland or Stornabag. I know for a fact that CHC cannot match what they are being paid at the moment - this will be part of CHC's problem.

Please also bear in mind that the Jigsaw crews have already carried out CG tasking including winching from fishing vessels at night. They did this and other tasking with winchmen trained in house.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 21:24
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Devil CHC vs Bond

Cyclic

I totally agree with you that CHC have the problem to solve, i just feel the easiest way forward for them with an already tight contract start date is to recruit known and proven crewmen/rearcrew and if they up the money to get the guys from Bond surely that will benefit us all in the long run??

SAR Bloke

As for am i saying the Bond crewmen are all Paramedics. No, but they do the same course as the forces do prior to the forces crewmen becoming paramedics, and not all forces rearcrew have made it to that stage yet.

Sorry just been told that some of the Bond crewmen are in fact Paramedics... sorry guys.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 22:43
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Hand on heart time all you Bond Guys

How many Ops Jobs have you done this year?

I have been told by one of your pilot friends of mine that for Miller and Sumburgh it's less than ten for BOTH bases and if you said you used the winch on more than one of them you would be telling porkies.

Now you might be paid a fortune but you must be feeling like all those players that sit on the bench week in week out for Chelsea when they realise there's must be more to life than money and they want to OUT.
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Old 3rd Aug 2006, 22:55
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I wasn't going to get drawn in on this one but what the hell! All of the Bond crews are volunteers and they knew that they would be working on a BP contract that wouldn't provide job after SAR job. The proof will be in the eating as to how many move to CHC or elsewhere and this will give a true reflection as to the power of the green.

Your pilot friend may well be correct as to his tally but I didn't think that there was a scoreboard; if there was, and you take into account that there is no overland tasking required of the contract, the "score" at the end of the year may well be quite respectable - but anyway who cares
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Old 4th Aug 2006, 07:23
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I know very little about the pay and conditions on the various civvy SAR contracts, but what I do know is that most SAR crewmen are not doing the job for money. That said, it is increasingly important that you pay people what they are worth - and in my humble opinion there are few people who have the responsibility and face the dangers that SAR crews do. Therefore, CHC 'et al' are going to have to put their hands in their pockets to attract the right people. Similarly, CHC and whoever gets the SAR(H) contract are going to have to invest flying hours in training their new people. That means writing proper monthly training requirements that give pilots and rear crew sufficient time to maintain proficiency. Let's stop this ridiculous practice of justifying rear crew trg on the back of pilot trg hours.
Furthermore, SAR operators must invest in top quality role equipment and flying clothing. This also has a big impact on the morale of crews; particularly Winchmen.
As ever, job satisfaction is more than just what goes in the pay packet. But when you pay peanuts you get monkeys!
End of Broadcast.
AT
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Old 4th Aug 2006, 08:31
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AT

The "civvy" companies will pay what they think they can get away with. If competition is fierce they will pay more, however, it is a business and the idea is to make profit. If the job is getting done to the satisfaction of the customer that is what matters.

Not all outfits train on the back of pilots' hours but the quantity of hours will never match the military and nor should they.
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Old 4th Aug 2006, 10:07
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Devil CHC vs Bond

Justintime80

I think you have got it right CHC can offer the proper SAR jobs at a rate that the Bond/Jigsaw guys will have dreamed of, the only sticking point is the money. Job satisfaction comes into play here but there is no way wifey at home will like the thought of less money coming in each month.

Talked to a contact in Bond and it seems their chief crewman is jumping ship and his number 2 doesn't want to takeover the job, whats that saying about smoke and fires...
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Old 4th Aug 2006, 20:20
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Wink More info

whopperchopper

You seem to have a rich vein of information, anymore gossip to tell us??
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Old 4th Aug 2006, 20:26
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SG

As in most things that come out of the likes of a WC, it is all a load of c##p!
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Old 6th Aug 2006, 09:57
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Mil SaR v Civvy SaR

Well,

As a regular viewer of PPRuNe forums, I recall quite recently a thread about Police observer roles being civilianised. And I recall some commentary by folk I assume where involved in SAR jobs , that "civvies" could be trained to fly as Police observers. Now while Im sure this could happen, and given the quality of recruit then with decent training anything can be acheived. Police officer observers watch your backs !

However now this thread has an angle on the thread I have previously mentioned, In fact it is similar. I recall text from that thread clearly from cops promoting the idea that cops in the air are still cops, ie they think like a cop. Not a civvy trained observer (no matter how qualified). And that to have cops in the air was of big benefits to those cops on the ground dealing...............

Now this thread is suggesting that to pay buttons attracts monkeys ?
Never a more true statement, Now that argument on the Police thread was shot down in flames, well folks the point of my post is to do the same on this thread.

There is little doubt that MIL/SAR training within the HM Forces is probably the best in the world...............BUT

You do not have the market on it anymore and rightly or wrongly your grip on it is weakening. BUT when you lock horns with those outside your industry on these forums and come out with comments like.......

"When was the last time you saw a Police helicopter flying in 200m viz and a 100ft cloudbase "

Please dont expect anything other than folk outside your industry having a go at you.

Anyway rant over thank you....................

Civilians as Police observers, most definately as its easy!

Civilians as SAR/Winch Ops not really, too specialised !
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Old 6th Aug 2006, 10:51
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tetchy

what the **[email protected]!!! was all that about this thread is about SAR not police camera operators
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Old 6th Aug 2006, 11:37
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SAR Rear Crew training??

SAR is not a matter of JAR-OPS3, so far I know. But there are operators performing Hoist operations in bad weather; especially those operators involved in the Sea-Pilot services in the North-Sea. All of them do have a JAR-OPS3 conform training program.
One of those Companies is NHV in Belgium, performing Hoist operations in weather conditions up to 60 kts. All of this crew has been recruted from the 40st SAR SQ and have allready trained several Rear crew members untill now.
In first instance the Rear crew is formed as a safety winchmen, thereafter as hoist operator Good weather Day & Night, then as Hoist operator all weather. Te instructors have performed between 15000 & 20000 hoistings on all type of boats/sailship.
Jus to tell that there is in fact an existing training system.
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