FAA ATP TO JAA
Join Date: Apr 2003
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From a US American perspective this whole situation is kind of strange.
Many moons ago I had some time on my hands so that I decided to do the FAA ATP written (ONE test). I had glommed a Jeppesen course book from a guy whose 'stovebolt 6' Chevrolet engine I had overhauled, plus I bought the latest version of the questions and answers to the test.
I holed up in my flat in Charlotte studying for one week straight, only emerging blinking into the daylight to take my evening meal in a cheap bistro.
When I was ready I booked the exam with a phone call, went in the next day, took it and passed with 93%. Total cost, about $50.
A few days brush-up in a BE-95 Travel Air ($800 for 10 hours, 'wet'), $100 for the examiner and I was an Airline Transport Pilot.
Another time, I needed an FAA FE license. Same story; one week living like a hermit with a DC-6 Flight Crew Operating Manual and the current Q & A for FE Reciprocating, followed by a trip to Burnside Ott at Opa Locka and another 93%. A few days of riding around in a DC-6 and then a practical test in a DC-7 and, presto, I was an FE! (Just to show the license to get into a certain African country, since I was only going to fly 400-series Cessnas.)
Now, for a JAR ATPL, I have to go to school from mid-November until the end of next June. I don't even want to think about what all this is going to cost, but it's going to be a case of leaking cash while waiting to become theoretically employable, every pilot's nightmare.
The (very expensive) JAR writtens are only available at certain venues at certain times, when there's no practical reason why one could not do them anywhere there's a telephone line to connect you to JAA Central, say.
Certainly from my time futzing around with the German LuftfahrtBehinderungsAmt (LBA) I got the idea they were trying to protect their local market from new boys trying to come in. And I think that might be the case with the JARs, that each regulatory body is thinking of how to put a spoke in the wheel of anyone trying to come in. It is just a sort of regulatory reflex, if you will.
The most galling aspect of this, as a Yankee, is that Europeans have relatively free access to a US license, when we accept their credentials at face value. Showing up with a US license in Europe is held to be a joke, on the other hand. Spare me the stuff about getting the US license off the back of a cereal box; there should be more reciprocity across the whole regulatory spectrum IMHO.
To go back to school after having flown as a professional for years is the only option, yes. I shall just have to get in line along with everyone else who wants a JAR license. It's not that I am being discriminated against.
A bigger question might be if this sort of thing being allowed is why aviation seems to be much more robust in the States, in many ways. I see some sort of situation where there is a small European market for pilots so that the regulators seem to be putting a brake on the supply of pilots rather than thinking of how to grow the market.
Many moons ago I had some time on my hands so that I decided to do the FAA ATP written (ONE test). I had glommed a Jeppesen course book from a guy whose 'stovebolt 6' Chevrolet engine I had overhauled, plus I bought the latest version of the questions and answers to the test.
I holed up in my flat in Charlotte studying for one week straight, only emerging blinking into the daylight to take my evening meal in a cheap bistro.
When I was ready I booked the exam with a phone call, went in the next day, took it and passed with 93%. Total cost, about $50.
A few days brush-up in a BE-95 Travel Air ($800 for 10 hours, 'wet'), $100 for the examiner and I was an Airline Transport Pilot.
Another time, I needed an FAA FE license. Same story; one week living like a hermit with a DC-6 Flight Crew Operating Manual and the current Q & A for FE Reciprocating, followed by a trip to Burnside Ott at Opa Locka and another 93%. A few days of riding around in a DC-6 and then a practical test in a DC-7 and, presto, I was an FE! (Just to show the license to get into a certain African country, since I was only going to fly 400-series Cessnas.)
Now, for a JAR ATPL, I have to go to school from mid-November until the end of next June. I don't even want to think about what all this is going to cost, but it's going to be a case of leaking cash while waiting to become theoretically employable, every pilot's nightmare.
The (very expensive) JAR writtens are only available at certain venues at certain times, when there's no practical reason why one could not do them anywhere there's a telephone line to connect you to JAA Central, say.
Certainly from my time futzing around with the German LuftfahrtBehinderungsAmt (LBA) I got the idea they were trying to protect their local market from new boys trying to come in. And I think that might be the case with the JARs, that each regulatory body is thinking of how to put a spoke in the wheel of anyone trying to come in. It is just a sort of regulatory reflex, if you will.
The most galling aspect of this, as a Yankee, is that Europeans have relatively free access to a US license, when we accept their credentials at face value. Showing up with a US license in Europe is held to be a joke, on the other hand. Spare me the stuff about getting the US license off the back of a cereal box; there should be more reciprocity across the whole regulatory spectrum IMHO.
To go back to school after having flown as a professional for years is the only option, yes. I shall just have to get in line along with everyone else who wants a JAR license. It's not that I am being discriminated against.
A bigger question might be if this sort of thing being allowed is why aviation seems to be much more robust in the States, in many ways. I see some sort of situation where there is a small European market for pilots so that the regulators seem to be putting a brake on the supply of pilots rather than thinking of how to grow the market.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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As somebody already inside the CAA bubble I think that they are brilliant and wouldn't want them to change anything.
It is hard for people to get licenses for the UK so there are fewer experienced pilots. The experienced pilots become a high value item and need paying as such so pay goes up. Brilliant
Keep up the good work CAA
332M
It is hard for people to get licenses for the UK so there are fewer experienced pilots. The experienced pilots become a high value item and need paying as such so pay goes up. Brilliant
Keep up the good work CAA
332M
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Aus, Europe & everywhere in between
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332
Get that plumb out of your mouth - PLEASE!!!
That is exactly the reason why the whole UK CAA licencing is up the creek.
Good enough for the rest of the world but not for the CAA.
Protectionism of the "old boys club" at its best.
I've said it before and I will say it again - knowing a book (even 13 books) from cover to cover does not make a better pilot.
I can see you will be a Govt. employee until you retire.
Get that plumb out of your mouth - PLEASE!!!
That is exactly the reason why the whole UK CAA licencing is up the creek.
Good enough for the rest of the world but not for the CAA.
Protectionism of the "old boys club" at its best.
I've said it before and I will say it again - knowing a book (even 13 books) from cover to cover does not make a better pilot.
I can see you will be a Govt. employee until you retire.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Yep!!
Instead of sitting around moaning get your head in the books!
And then when you are on the inside looking out you can see the benefits of not having the market flooded with thousands of Antipodean or HAI grads!
Instead of sitting around moaning get your head in the books!
And then when you are on the inside looking out you can see the benefits of not having the market flooded with thousands of Antipodean or HAI grads!
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Oogle
Rattled your cage did I I stopped being a government employee about 20yrs ago and I hate plums - was that a racial remark by the way
By hard work and going head to head with the companies we have managed to increase the pay of helicopter pilots in the UK - which is why there are so many people trying to get in and whinging when some hurdles are put in their way. There is no ban on "aliens" (to use the American term) as we have many different nationalities in my company. It just needs hard work to get the better rewards.
What we don't want is, as Autosync said, is an influx of pilots who don't meet our stringent requirements who will dilute the market and give the companies the upper hand in any future pay negotiations.
The CAA is doing us all a favour by keeping the standards high and long may it continue
332M
Rattled your cage did I
I stopped being a government employee about 20yrs ago and I hate plums - was that a racial remark by the way By hard work and going head to head with the companies we have managed to increase the pay of helicopter pilots in the UK - which is why there are so many people trying to get in and whinging when some hurdles are put in their way. There is no ban on "aliens" (to use the American term) as we have many different nationalities in my company. It just needs hard work to get the better rewards.
What we don't want is, as Autosync said, is an influx of pilots who don't meet our stringent requirements who will dilute the market and give the companies the upper hand in any future pay negotiations.
The CAA is doing us all a favour by keeping the standards high and long may it continue
332M
Join Date: May 2004
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332M
It is sad to hear that you somehow think the CAA is "protecting" your way of life by somehow making it hard for not just overseas pilots coming into your turf but also student UK pilots coming up to the plate.
I will say it again - If you think that ALL that theory is going to make a better pilot you are dreaming.
I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots.
But hey, they must have been good because they had a UK pilot licence
Keep the standards high - fully agree! But don't think that by keeping out overseas pilots via a protectionist licencing system is somehow good for your pay negotiations. Pay negotiations carry on no matter how many pilots are waiting in-line.
I hope for your sake your bubble doesn't burst too soon.
It is sad to hear that you somehow think the CAA is "protecting" your way of life by somehow making it hard for not just overseas pilots coming into your turf but also student UK pilots coming up to the plate.
I will say it again - If you think that ALL that theory is going to make a better pilot you are dreaming.
I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots.
But hey, they must have been good because they had a UK pilot licence
Keep the standards high - fully agree! But don't think that by keeping out overseas pilots via a protectionist licencing system is somehow good for your pay negotiations. Pay negotiations carry on no matter how many pilots are waiting in-line.
I hope for your sake your bubble doesn't burst too soon.
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Oogle
You fail to understand the UK market. We are JAA now so anybody with a JAA license and is an EC citizen can work in the UK. The JAA license requirements are perhaps a bit stiffer than the old CAA ones
The big companies CHC/Bristow/Bond are now addressing their recruitment regimes and going in for psychometric testing, sim rides etc along with the recruitment of abinitio pilots to fill bonded co-pilot slots.
It is still possible to gain employment as a Non EC citizen but you do need to get the JAA license.
Your comment: -
"I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots"
is rather immature and doesn't help your argument.
Yes the theory exams are a bind but like anything in life if you want it you have to jump through the hoops to get it.
Once again economic realities hit the companies when there is a shortage of "suitably" qualified pilots so this has benefited us in our negotiations for increased pay and retention of our pension scheme.
My bubble won't burst until I retire.
332M
You fail to understand the UK market. We are JAA now so anybody with a JAA license and is an EC citizen can work in the UK. The JAA license requirements are perhaps a bit stiffer than the old CAA ones
The big companies CHC/Bristow/Bond are now addressing their recruitment regimes and going in for psychometric testing, sim rides etc along with the recruitment of abinitio pilots to fill bonded co-pilot slots.
It is still possible to gain employment as a Non EC citizen but you do need to get the JAA license.
Your comment: -
"I have flown with some Offshore Captains who thought their ****e doesn't stink and who were less than average pilots"
is rather immature and doesn't help your argument.
Yes the theory exams are a bind but like anything in life if you want it you have to jump through the hoops to get it.
Once again economic realities hit the companies when there is a shortage of "suitably" qualified pilots so this has benefited us in our negotiations for increased pay and retention of our pension scheme.
My bubble won't burst until I retire.
332M
Join Date: Nov 2000
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oogle
Knowledge does make you a better pilot. Granted, it's a bit difficult to understand why you need to know how a CRT works, but I have used the departure formula in N Alberta when calculating bearings in my head, plus a lot of other stuff I never thought I would use.
The reason why you need to know so much about radio propagation is because it is actually part of the amateur radio syllabus, of which the pilot's licence is a cut-down version. It's also very handy knowing that you have to increase the frequency during the day to get through to the ops office on HF to find out what you are doing the next day.
I would recommend that you get every scrap of knowledge that you can, because gaps in knowledge tend to become painfully obvious on interviews.
In the USA, Canada, etc, the stuff you think is irrelevant now actually gets taught to you during ground training, type ratings, etc. The JAA take the view that there's no guarantee that you will get this, so they make sure you get it before you start.
I do think, though, that there is the sense that whoever sets the questions has no deep knowledge of the subject matter - it’s as if a secretary had been given the task, together with a big book to make the selection from. There's a lot needs to be done on the administration of exams. If Canada can have the results back to you within 3 minutes from Ottawa, on top of taking any exam during office hours, then JAA can do it as well.
Phil
Knowledge does make you a better pilot. Granted, it's a bit difficult to understand why you need to know how a CRT works, but I have used the departure formula in N Alberta when calculating bearings in my head, plus a lot of other stuff I never thought I would use.
The reason why you need to know so much about radio propagation is because it is actually part of the amateur radio syllabus, of which the pilot's licence is a cut-down version. It's also very handy knowing that you have to increase the frequency during the day to get through to the ops office on HF to find out what you are doing the next day.
I would recommend that you get every scrap of knowledge that you can, because gaps in knowledge tend to become painfully obvious on interviews.
In the USA, Canada, etc, the stuff you think is irrelevant now actually gets taught to you during ground training, type ratings, etc. The JAA take the view that there's no guarantee that you will get this, so they make sure you get it before you start.
I do think, though, that there is the sense that whoever sets the questions has no deep knowledge of the subject matter - it’s as if a secretary had been given the task, together with a big book to make the selection from. There's a lot needs to be done on the administration of exams. If Canada can have the results back to you within 3 minutes from Ottawa, on top of taking any exam during office hours, then JAA can do it as well.
Phil
Fair comment Phil, and you are right, you can never know too much.
The problem really is the fact that people have to pay a fairly large sum of money, and waste a lot of time, to pass something that they already have. Nothing wrong with setting a high standard, but why can't an overseas guy sit a conversion type exam to ensure they ARE at that standard? Why spend weeks at a school studying something you already have? In fact, why the compulsory hours in the classroom when you could self-study?
Surely an audit of overseas ATPL exams could establish if they meet the same level as JAA, in which case there is no reason to not make recognition recipical.
Anyway, back to the study! I'm enjoying your book Phil, very impressed.
Cheers BM
The problem really is the fact that people have to pay a fairly large sum of money, and waste a lot of time, to pass something that they already have. Nothing wrong with setting a high standard, but why can't an overseas guy sit a conversion type exam to ensure they ARE at that standard? Why spend weeks at a school studying something you already have? In fact, why the compulsory hours in the classroom when you could self-study?
Surely an audit of overseas ATPL exams could establish if they meet the same level as JAA, in which case there is no reason to not make recognition recipical.
Anyway, back to the study! I'm enjoying your book Phil, very impressed.
Cheers BM
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<blush>Aw shucks!
In getting my own distance learning course under way, I have picked up that there are moves afoot in that direction. There are people in there that want to do this, but they've got to get past the committee! And I hear you about self-study!
It's the same nonsense that dictates that Chief Engineers now need degrees in engineering, because all engineers in Germany have degrees.
phil
In getting my own distance learning course under way, I have picked up that there are moves afoot in that direction. There are people in there that want to do this, but they've got to get past the committee! And I hear you about self-study!
It's the same nonsense that dictates that Chief Engineers now need degrees in engineering, because all engineers in Germany have degrees.
phil
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FAA ATP TO JAA
I hope I don't beat a dead horse, but...
Could somebody explain me the newest deal on the conversion from a FAA ATP (H) (1000 Multiengine Medium) to a JAA ATPL(H).
Let's say I just take the written test in the UK, and then go to Norway with it toget a job and let the company pay for my checkride/Type rating?
and
Is there any school out there that provides an online training, so you're not required to sit in class for 10 straight weeks ?
Inputs are greatly apreciated,
tailwinds
Could somebody explain me the newest deal on the conversion from a FAA ATP (H) (1000 Multiengine Medium) to a JAA ATPL(H).
Let's say I just take the written test in the UK, and then go to Norway with it toget a job and let the company pay for my checkride/Type rating?
and
Is there any school out there that provides an online training, so you're not required to sit in class for 10 straight weeks ?
Inputs are greatly apreciated,
tailwinds
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Have a chat with Bristol Ground School / Atlantic Flight Training/ Bournemoth Commercial Flight Training (to name a few) as you may well be exempt part of the classroom stuff. The rest would be distance learning.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Helibuzzer
You can contact Phil Croucher on [email protected]
I don't know the full story, but I know he's been putting a new book or download together for this type of scenario
I'm going thru a conversion right now, and will post a complete rundown once I'm done.
PM me if you have specific Q's
Good luck with it!....170
You can contact Phil Croucher on [email protected]
I don't know the full story, but I know he's been putting a new book or download together for this type of scenario
I'm going thru a conversion right now, and will post a complete rundown once I'm done.
PM me if you have specific Q's
Good luck with it!....170
Join Date: Nov 2000
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An ATP holder with 1000 hours on multi-crew aircraft can just breeze in and take the exams - if you have 500 on the type used for the skill test, you don't have to go through a TRTO course, either. There's an exemption tick box on the application form.
You would be unwise to go for the exams without any kind of study, but PM me if you have any questions!
cheers
Phil
You would be unwise to go for the exams without any kind of study, but PM me if you have any questions!
cheers
Phil
