Heading for disaster
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oh me god!
its only an expression- not to be taken literaly!
it just means some people never make good/safe pilots, and others seem to achieve a standard more easily. MAYBE you need to change to de-cafe 170?
mk10
its only an expression- not to be taken literaly!
it just means some people never make good/safe pilots, and others seem to achieve a standard more easily. MAYBE you need to change to de-cafe 170?
mk10
I'm not sure if it still happens, but the RAF used to 'cream off' the best students and send them on an instructors course. They would then be teaching basic students themselves with very few hours under their belts. OK, I accept that they had been through the initial acceptance and were the best of the bunch, but it was felt that being straight out of training themselves they could relate well to the problems that stoods have. Only happened on fixed wing though.
Hovering AND talking
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Perhaps a more appropriate version of the expression is
Some people can have 10 years experience and some people can have one years experience ten times.
Cheers
Whirls
Some people can have 10 years experience and some people can have one years experience ten times.
Cheers
Whirls
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the viewpoints presented here are all valid in some way.
but the way i see it is.... you dont need 2000+ hours to teach some zero hours guy to hover an r22 or to do a decent steep approach etc.
although i think instructors teaching commercial/CFI should have at least 500 hours
i remember as a brand new instructor i had to teach commercial students, and some of them flew the aircraft better than i did! not an ideal situation.
but the way i see it is.... you dont need 2000+ hours to teach some zero hours guy to hover an r22 or to do a decent steep approach etc.
although i think instructors teaching commercial/CFI should have at least 500 hours
i remember as a brand new instructor i had to teach commercial students, and some of them flew the aircraft better than i did! not an ideal situation.
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Believe it or not, there is actually some of us newbie cpl's out here who actually agree with having to start off sweeping hangar floors, etc and sitting in the left seat gaining and quizzing an experienced pilots knowledge.
It would be my ideal preferred first position, rather than instruction, basically so I could get to know the industry from the ground up. I have approached numerous companies so far (and will continue to do so) asking to do just this sort of work (and no, I am not one of the work for free brigade before anyone starts :o). However, it is proving just as hard to get this sort of work as it is to get any flying jobs. I have actually been offered 3 Instructor positions with different schools, if and when I get my instructor rating but never the hangar rat positions....they just don't seem to be available. You never know, maybe the reason why all of us newbie cpl's aren't sweeping the floors is because those positions are currently filled....so that only leaves us to do the Instructor route.
Just my little bits worth
Crieff-ite
It would be my ideal preferred first position, rather than instruction, basically so I could get to know the industry from the ground up. I have approached numerous companies so far (and will continue to do so) asking to do just this sort of work (and no, I am not one of the work for free brigade before anyone starts :o). However, it is proving just as hard to get this sort of work as it is to get any flying jobs. I have actually been offered 3 Instructor positions with different schools, if and when I get my instructor rating but never the hangar rat positions....they just don't seem to be available. You never know, maybe the reason why all of us newbie cpl's aren't sweeping the floors is because those positions are currently filled....so that only leaves us to do the Instructor route.
Just my little bits worth
Crieff-ite
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Hm.
First, show me the numbers. In the US, we've (for better or worse), been doing it this way for a long time, yet our numbers (accidents/fatalities per flight hour) are getting better over the long term.
Of course, it may be for the same reason that our highway numbers have gotten better over the long term - it's easier/cheaper to make better roads and cars (systems) than it is to make better drivers (operators).
Either way you get results - of course you'd get the best results of all if you both improved the system and the operator, but now the reality of economics rears its head - to put it bluntly, you can't have everything, what would you use to pay for it?
Until aviation becomes a government-administered non-profit affair (oh yeah, that's how the military works, can you imagine if they had to pay their own bills), the current system may well be the one which provides the most safety for the least money.
How much safety is "enough" won't be decided by floor-sweeping apprentice pilots, it will be decided by insurance company actuarials and the shareholders of companies like SEACOR and AirLog. And, as it has always been, carried on the backs of us folks who will let their passion for flying overrule their common sense.
First, show me the numbers. In the US, we've (for better or worse), been doing it this way for a long time, yet our numbers (accidents/fatalities per flight hour) are getting better over the long term.
Of course, it may be for the same reason that our highway numbers have gotten better over the long term - it's easier/cheaper to make better roads and cars (systems) than it is to make better drivers (operators).
Either way you get results - of course you'd get the best results of all if you both improved the system and the operator, but now the reality of economics rears its head - to put it bluntly, you can't have everything, what would you use to pay for it?
Until aviation becomes a government-administered non-profit affair (oh yeah, that's how the military works, can you imagine if they had to pay their own bills), the current system may well be the one which provides the most safety for the least money.
How much safety is "enough" won't be decided by floor-sweeping apprentice pilots, it will be decided by insurance company actuarials and the shareholders of companies like SEACOR and AirLog. And, as it has always been, carried on the backs of us folks who will let their passion for flying overrule their common sense.
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"i remember as a brand new instructor i had to teach commercial students, and some of them flew the aircraft better than i did! not an ideal situation."
So whats changed TC
So whats changed TC
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Odd that on the one hand people criticise new pilots who may offer to work for next to nothing or for free for devaluing the qualifications in the eyes of the industry and bring down wages, and on the other expect folks with those same qualifications to happily sweep floors.
Someone mentioned new doctors not being brain surgeons. That's true but at least the medical profession has a system of internship to coach the newly qualified, without expecting the new MD to fulfill the duties of a janitor.
Si
Someone mentioned new doctors not being brain surgeons. That's true but at least the medical profession has a system of internship to coach the newly qualified, without expecting the new MD to fulfill the duties of a janitor.
Si
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I know a handful of people who think they are above sweeping hangar floors, and I have no use for any of them. My office job pays the bills and feeds the wife and kids so I mow lawns to pay for my flight time. A lawn takes me on average 40 minutes and it pays for 6 minutes of flight time. Sweeping hangar floors would be a helluva lot more fun and without a doubt I'd learn a few things. With that said, if a new, young CFI has a chance to clean aircraft or teach new students what do you think he's going to do? It would be stupid not to fly.
TC is right. Most pilots working toward PPL will never advance beyond looking for sunny days to hover or make a couple of circuits in the pattern so why does he/she need an old-timer with tons of hours as an instructor? Everything is so new to him that just learning the basics is a struggle and since most training (in the US anyway) is in an R22 how much more can a CFI with 10K hours pass on that a 200 hour CFI couldn't?
I've had my PPL(H) add-on a couple of months so I'm looking at the situation from the perspective of the student. My first 2 instructors had amassed 4000-5,000 each, but were just kids in their mid-twenties and it didn't take long to figure out I needed someone more mature. It takes 3 hours to get to the airport to meet my current CFI but it's an effort well spent. He's in his late 50s with 9,000 hours in both fixed and rotary wing. Even think about making a mistake and he cusses at full volume. I don't think he's ever said a kind word...I almost cried when I was heading off for my check ride and he said "good luck", the only sign of affection I've ever seen from him.
You say it's not possible for CFIs to make a good living? His students book their time online in 1/2 hour increments and pay for the entire time blocked. You need to schedule well in advance because it fills up quickly. And he charges handsomely for his time. And when you're paying x number of dollars for aircraft rental what do you care if your CFI charges a little more for his time. A good CFI is worth every dime and this guy does well. Now this is the part that will piss most Pruners off...I honestly believe that a 200 hr. CFI with some maturity could have taught me every bit as well. It's just that I ran into this guy first.
TC is right. Most pilots working toward PPL will never advance beyond looking for sunny days to hover or make a couple of circuits in the pattern so why does he/she need an old-timer with tons of hours as an instructor? Everything is so new to him that just learning the basics is a struggle and since most training (in the US anyway) is in an R22 how much more can a CFI with 10K hours pass on that a 200 hour CFI couldn't?
I've had my PPL(H) add-on a couple of months so I'm looking at the situation from the perspective of the student. My first 2 instructors had amassed 4000-5,000 each, but were just kids in their mid-twenties and it didn't take long to figure out I needed someone more mature. It takes 3 hours to get to the airport to meet my current CFI but it's an effort well spent. He's in his late 50s with 9,000 hours in both fixed and rotary wing. Even think about making a mistake and he cusses at full volume. I don't think he's ever said a kind word...I almost cried when I was heading off for my check ride and he said "good luck", the only sign of affection I've ever seen from him.
You say it's not possible for CFIs to make a good living? His students book their time online in 1/2 hour increments and pay for the entire time blocked. You need to schedule well in advance because it fills up quickly. And he charges handsomely for his time. And when you're paying x number of dollars for aircraft rental what do you care if your CFI charges a little more for his time. A good CFI is worth every dime and this guy does well. Now this is the part that will piss most Pruners off...I honestly believe that a 200 hr. CFI with some maturity could have taught me every bit as well. It's just that I ran into this guy first.
Last edited by Gerhardt; 19th May 2006 at 13:24.
I have raised this issue a few times before. This is not the low time instructors fault, it's the authorities fault for allowing it to happen. It is obvious that this will cause a lesser standard of instruction. Therefore a lesser standard of pilots and a lesser standard of industry
.
One of the biggest benefits of being taught by a high timer is making the student realise where they stand, how much experience will teach them and how much time they have to put into teaching themselves to be better pilots. Even now I am coming across so many pilots that think they are light years ahead of where they actually are
. It's all part of this changing culture and benchmark.
Placing yourself behind your ability is so much more beneficial to your learning than placing yourself in front of it.
How is this supposed to be evident when they are being instructed by someone that is only a few paces ahead of them?
The thing that we need to realise is that the most valuable part of your early years are not all at the controls. I believe that a large portion of my learning was leaning on a tail boom listening to those who have been around and have the stories to tell from their experiences.
You can't learn airmanship from an apprentice. Helicopter instruction needs to be complimented with experience.
It's a lot of coin to part with, give the poor bastards what they are paying for.
A qoute to those flying schools that do this because they can
"Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of f#*#wits"
. One of the biggest benefits of being taught by a high timer is making the student realise where they stand, how much experience will teach them and how much time they have to put into teaching themselves to be better pilots. Even now I am coming across so many pilots that think they are light years ahead of where they actually are
. It's all part of this changing culture and benchmark.Placing yourself behind your ability is so much more beneficial to your learning than placing yourself in front of it.
How is this supposed to be evident when they are being instructed by someone that is only a few paces ahead of them?
The thing that we need to realise is that the most valuable part of your early years are not all at the controls. I believe that a large portion of my learning was leaning on a tail boom listening to those who have been around and have the stories to tell from their experiences.
You can't learn airmanship from an apprentice. Helicopter instruction needs to be complimented with experience.
It's a lot of coin to part with, give the poor bastards what they are paying for.
A qoute to those flying schools that do this because they can
"Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of f#*#wits"
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my tuppence worth....
If you're learning and being instructed within a regimented syllabus, how much variation exists in that environment ??
So therefore how much 'additional' experience can be passed on within that regimented environment.
Surely someone who's done a 1000 circuits is adequate to pass on 'that' experience...
Isn't the problem the mentoring and support available to a new pilot once he's got his licence/s in that new role ?
If you're learning and being instructed within a regimented syllabus, how much variation exists in that environment ??
So therefore how much 'additional' experience can be passed on within that regimented environment.
Surely someone who's done a 1000 circuits is adequate to pass on 'that' experience...
Isn't the problem the mentoring and support available to a new pilot once he's got his licence/s in that new role ?
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Originally Posted by Simon853
Odd that on the one hand people criticise new pilots who may offer to work for next to nothing or for free for devaluing the qualifications in the eyes of the industry and bring down wages, and on the other expect folks with those same qualifications to happily sweep floors.
Someone mentioned new doctors not being brain surgeons. That's true but at least the medical profession has a system of internship to coach the newly qualified, without expecting the new MD to fulfill the duties of a janitor.
Si
Someone mentioned new doctors not being brain surgeons. That's true but at least the medical profession has a system of internship to coach the newly qualified, without expecting the new MD to fulfill the duties of a janitor.
Si
i would love to learn from the ground up and i am all the time!! especially when hi up 'representitives' of the industry kick us down! It simply shows that this company will happily take from the industry ( high houred already trained pilots) but will not even attempt to give back, not even in the form of a polite email! i do not want something for nothing but atleast other industries in the uk are polite!
sorry for the rant but its true!
Ah the days of showing up uninvited and being offered a Cuppa and friendly chat!
Nowadays...hit the company web site and complete the HR computerized application and hit send......and maybe being asked to send a formal CV by post.....all the while the Chief Pilot is busy figuring his stock options or some silly thing instead of recruiting and hiring pilots.
Nowadays...hit the company web site and complete the HR computerized application and hit send......and maybe being asked to send a formal CV by post.....all the while the Chief Pilot is busy figuring his stock options or some silly thing instead of recruiting and hiring pilots.
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Originally Posted by is gravity respons..
i sent to a certain scottish company!... i got a blunt crude and almost rude ( nearly rhimed) email back from the Chieff pilot, a company representitive. its as if he has to much time and actually tried to write a demeaning and demorilising email, a simple thanks but no thanks would of sufficed!
NC43