R44 fatal accident - tail boom failure?
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Originally Posted by MLH
How does one know for certain that the non-rated passenger was not on the controls?
Just seems to me that no-one has thrown in eye of newt to the cauldron despite all the chanting and shouting that's a bin goin-on. we do really need a bit more giff and less gaff.
What did the witnesses say - how long it was falling, how far away were they, what angle of elevation from their position, etc? was it inverted, spinning, even??
The link to CASA is old news, with by now a photo of a fairly famous hat, and as someone else said if it is suggested that the rotating bits came adrift, up there, then they would be scattered far and wide. There's plenty of ways a tail boom can be dragged off or severed off, we don't even know which yet.
One thing that I am finding mighty strange if old mate FLYINHI don't mind - Bro - where'd you get that tag from - induction or atmospheric?
Regarding Page 1:
Helmet Fire - I would assume Brian had people shooting at him or his pax, hence seating wasn't an issue.
Brian: Thoughts and regards to you for yesterdays celebration and to all the other great Veteran Capt's I once worked with.
Helmet Fire - I would assume Brian had people shooting at him or his pax, hence seating wasn't an issue.
Brian: Thoughts and regards to you for yesterdays celebration and to all the other great Veteran Capt's I once worked with.
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Thanks for the compliments Steve, called many things but never "great", quite the reverse in fact. None of us left now. Never saw Helmet Fires post till now and you are right, 13 X 90lb Asians neither weigh much or take up much space (and no seats).
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Originally Posted by HELOFAN
I am saddened to see any loss of life, always sympathies to all those affected.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?
Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.
If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?
Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.
I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.
HF
Heliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?
Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.
If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?
Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.
I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.
HFHeliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.
Just take the scores of flight schools that use Robinsons versus the few that use the S 300. I'd say it is at least a 15 or 20-1 ratio. Maybe more. Robbie's are the hottest selling helis on the planet, and how many 300's did Schwietzer sell in comparison?? Not many. THERE'S your comparison.
If 500 red cars are on the road compared to 20 black cars, in the law of averages what color car is gonna wreck more?
One more thing, I do believe that the R44 has the lowest engine failure rate of any helicopter, ever.
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. That Only Means They Have Found What Their Are Looking For, Or Botched The Investigation. As For The Robi Hater I Feel You Have No Idea What Your Talking About. Robinson Has A Great Helicopter It Just Needs Some Work To Make It Safer For All Pilots. (snoopy) I Don't Know Where You Get Your Info From But You Got I Heck Of An Imagination.
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!
Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.
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Originally Posted by 13snoopy
What a coincidence that you joined PPrune and used this topic as your first posts!!!!!!!!! Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.
Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.
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snoopy: maybe your name speaks for yourself. you need to go away. i need information.
I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS .I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. maybe you should read between the lines. who would know so much personal information that you can't get.
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.[/quote]
so snoopy who do you work for?
why do you have a problem with me getting information i need!
all the information i have posted is true and correct
I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS .I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. maybe you should read between the lines. who would know so much personal information that you can't get.
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.[/quote]
so snoopy who do you work for?
why do you have a problem with me getting information i need!
all the information i have posted is true and correct
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS .I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY.
all the information i have posted is true and correct
all the information i have posted is true and correct
However we can only exist on hyperbole for so long and that's all you have given us amongst the shouting.
On these forums at little risk of contradiction you will find the greatest collection and cross references of wise experience rotary wise in the whole world - sure there's plenty of banale and banter amongst the beautific - just like bloody life in the front office of our job.
If you would like some logic and or theories tossed around then for god's sake come up with some facts else the whole brain factory is gonna walk away from you.
at risk of contradiction you are starting to sound like a hillbilly countryman of mine - and that's embarrassing.
in short front up or shut up.
TET
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Originally Posted by topendtorque
Mate, I am indeed sorry if this is a personal tradegy for yourself, we all get those from time to time in the rotary game, just a matter of time it seems, even ordinary life yields more than what one might expect as tradegies for some.
However we can only exist on hyperbole for so long and that's all you have given us amongst the shouting.
On these forums at little risk of contradiction you will find the greatest collection and cross references of wise experience rotary wise in the whole world - sure there's plenty of banale and banter amongst the beautific - just like bloody life in the front office of our job.
If you would like some logic and or theories tossed around then for god's sake come up with some facts else the whole brain factory is gonna walk away from you.
at risk of contradiction you are starting to sound like a hillbilly countryman of mine - and that's embarrassing.
in short front up or shut up.
TET
However we can only exist on hyperbole for so long and that's all you have given us amongst the shouting.
On these forums at little risk of contradiction you will find the greatest collection and cross references of wise experience rotary wise in the whole world - sure there's plenty of banale and banter amongst the beautific - just like bloody life in the front office of our job.
If you would like some logic and or theories tossed around then for god's sake come up with some facts else the whole brain factory is gonna walk away from you.
at risk of contradiction you are starting to sound like a hillbilly countryman of mine - and that's embarrassing.
in short front up or shut up.
TET
FLYINHY cannot tell us any more because he's ran out of lies.
No one that's associated with the NTSB has ever told FLYINHY (as he claims)that the case mentioned above was "closed". That's pure falsehood.
He's a liar and he knows it.
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Originally Posted by HELOFAN
hmm now if a scale was applied to even it out ( number of ships produced over time ) would the number of ships per production over time be even or at a higher/lower rate?
http://www.hothelicopters.com/career_schools.htm
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007,
I think those stats are a little misleading.... By a school who wants to push the 300.
I recently attended RHC safety school and Tim Tucker spent a good amount of time analyazing accident stats up to 2002. I think with the introduction of the gov, and the SFAR restrictions, LOC accidents were cut 5 fold (I think..Hard to remember exactly)
Long story short, most stats can be skewed to show anything. Also, the estimation of flight hours,is just that...an estimation.....
I think both ships are safe when flown properly. I personally prefer the R22, which is why I bought one.....but to each his own.... Both fine pieces of equipment, both have advantages and disadvantages....
I think those stats are a little misleading.... By a school who wants to push the 300.
I recently attended RHC safety school and Tim Tucker spent a good amount of time analyazing accident stats up to 2002. I think with the introduction of the gov, and the SFAR restrictions, LOC accidents were cut 5 fold (I think..Hard to remember exactly)
Long story short, most stats can be skewed to show anything. Also, the estimation of flight hours,is just that...an estimation.....
I think both ships are safe when flown properly. I personally prefer the R22, which is why I bought one.....but to each his own.... Both fine pieces of equipment, both have advantages and disadvantages....
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Thank you 007.
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF
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Here is an intesting link> I cut and pasted the txt below. I also highlighted some areas of interest....
Like I said, I think you can make stats say almost anything you want. I think both ships are good. However my personal opinon is the 22 is a better ship. I only have about 20 hrs in a 300 though.....
http://www.ainonline.com/Publication...csr22pg20.html
Like I said, I think you can make stats say almost anything you want. I think both ships are good. However my personal opinon is the 22 is a better ship. I only have about 20 hrs in a 300 though.....
Statistics show R22 is as safe as a turbine
An analysis of Robinson R22 accidents performed using data from Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has proven something Robinson designer and developer Frank Robinson has been saying for years: that in a level-playing-field comparison adjusted for flight hours, his R22 two-seat piston helo is at least as safe as, if not safer than, its leading competition, whether piston or turbine-powered.
The study examined British aviation safety records compiled over 15 years, starting in 1985 and ending in 2000. The sheer growth rate of the rapidly expanding Robinson in-service fleet finds itself reflected in the total numbers of estimated hours flown: in 1995, the UK Robinson fleet logged an estimated 99,393 flight hours, compared with a total of 197,576 for 2000. Over those years, just 15 fatal accidents were recorded among R22, R44, Schweizer 300/Hughes 269 and Bell JetRanger classes.
Among those aircraft over those years, that comparison group shows that 46.5 percent of total hours flown in the UK by single-engine rotorcraft were flown by R22s. That make and model of helicopter was involved in roughly one-third of all reported accidents and one-fifth of all fatal accidents. (The accident rates worked out to one reportable accident for every 7,515 hr flight time, and one fatal accident for every 115,213 flight hours)
Robinson’s chief competition in the ab initio training mission, the Schweizer 300/Hughes 269, in the UK flew fewer than one-tenth as many hours as the R22 (just 4.2 percent of the total UK helicopter hours flown) but was involved in 10 percent of the reportable accidents and 6.7 percent of the fatal accidents during the timeframe studied. The 300/269 fleet was involved in one reportable accident every 2,380 hr and one fatal every 30,939 hr, making it almost four times more dangerous than the R22.
In the case of the Bell JetRanger, the CAA numbers showed the world’s most ubiquitous turbine single to be involved in far fewer accidents overall, but when an accident did take place, it was far more likely to be fatal. The theories behind this higher rate are several. JetRangers tend to be operated at higher speeds (because they can be) and in more demanding environments (offshore, geological research, and so on). The JetRanger comes in second in terms of total CAA hours (26.4 percent), averaging just one out of every 10 accidents but, sadly, one out of every three fatal accidents. The JetRanger fleet averaged just one reportable accident for every 14,047 hr of flight, a safety rate twice as good as the R22’s, but averaged a fatal accident once every 39,903 hr, about three times worse than the R22.
Other helicopter makes and models flew what could be argued as statistically insignificant portions of the accident pie. For instance, Eurocopter’s AS 350 AStar, which logged 8.4 percent of the total hours listed between 1985 and 2000, accounted for 3.1 percent of the reportable accidents and reported just one fatal mishap.
Less common helicopters, such as the Robinson R44; MD Helicopters’ MD 500, the Enstrom line of the 28, 280 and 480; the Bell 47 and Eurocopter Gazelle barely notched 1 percent of the accident index, while the rates of lesser-knowns and newcomers such as the Brantley International Brantley B-2B and Eurocopter EC 120 also studied were not statistically significant. –B.W.
An analysis of Robinson R22 accidents performed using data from Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has proven something Robinson designer and developer Frank Robinson has been saying for years: that in a level-playing-field comparison adjusted for flight hours, his R22 two-seat piston helo is at least as safe as, if not safer than, its leading competition, whether piston or turbine-powered.
The study examined British aviation safety records compiled over 15 years, starting in 1985 and ending in 2000. The sheer growth rate of the rapidly expanding Robinson in-service fleet finds itself reflected in the total numbers of estimated hours flown: in 1995, the UK Robinson fleet logged an estimated 99,393 flight hours, compared with a total of 197,576 for 2000. Over those years, just 15 fatal accidents were recorded among R22, R44, Schweizer 300/Hughes 269 and Bell JetRanger classes.
Among those aircraft over those years, that comparison group shows that 46.5 percent of total hours flown in the UK by single-engine rotorcraft were flown by R22s. That make and model of helicopter was involved in roughly one-third of all reported accidents and one-fifth of all fatal accidents. (The accident rates worked out to one reportable accident for every 7,515 hr flight time, and one fatal accident for every 115,213 flight hours)
Robinson’s chief competition in the ab initio training mission, the Schweizer 300/Hughes 269, in the UK flew fewer than one-tenth as many hours as the R22 (just 4.2 percent of the total UK helicopter hours flown) but was involved in 10 percent of the reportable accidents and 6.7 percent of the fatal accidents during the timeframe studied. The 300/269 fleet was involved in one reportable accident every 2,380 hr and one fatal every 30,939 hr, making it almost four times more dangerous than the R22.
In the case of the Bell JetRanger, the CAA numbers showed the world’s most ubiquitous turbine single to be involved in far fewer accidents overall, but when an accident did take place, it was far more likely to be fatal. The theories behind this higher rate are several. JetRangers tend to be operated at higher speeds (because they can be) and in more demanding environments (offshore, geological research, and so on). The JetRanger comes in second in terms of total CAA hours (26.4 percent), averaging just one out of every 10 accidents but, sadly, one out of every three fatal accidents. The JetRanger fleet averaged just one reportable accident for every 14,047 hr of flight, a safety rate twice as good as the R22’s, but averaged a fatal accident once every 39,903 hr, about three times worse than the R22.
Other helicopter makes and models flew what could be argued as statistically insignificant portions of the accident pie. For instance, Eurocopter’s AS 350 AStar, which logged 8.4 percent of the total hours listed between 1985 and 2000, accounted for 3.1 percent of the reportable accidents and reported just one fatal mishap.
Less common helicopters, such as the Robinson R44; MD Helicopters’ MD 500, the Enstrom line of the 28, 280 and 480; the Bell 47 and Eurocopter Gazelle barely notched 1 percent of the accident index, while the rates of lesser-knowns and newcomers such as the Brantley International Brantley B-2B and Eurocopter EC 120 also studied were not statistically significant. –B.W.
Last edited by InducedDrag; 22nd Aug 2006 at 22:51.
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Originally Posted by HELOFAN
Thank you 007.
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF
Tell the truth for a change.
Ignoring the lie you told isn't going to make it go away.
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Hey,
I am pretty sure that I have nothing to do with what ever the hell it is you are talking about.
I hope you know cause I have no idea.
maybe you know, maybe you dont but either way leave me out of it.
Cheers
I imagine that it was a simple mistake of cut and paste or something and any minute you are going to say ....oh sorry bout that .
HF
I am pretty sure that I have nothing to do with what ever the hell it is you are talking about.
I hope you know cause I have no idea.
maybe you know, maybe you dont but either way leave me out of it.
Cheers
I imagine that it was a simple mistake of cut and paste or something and any minute you are going to say ....oh sorry bout that .
HF
Anyone care to speculate on the cause of the R44 crash off the Oregon coast on Aug.13?
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Originally Posted by 13snoopy
What a coincidence that you joined PPrune and used this topic as your first posts!!!!!!!!! Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.
Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE.
You're a liar.
Go away.
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY.
Are you drunk when you post here????????
You asked why I said what I said about your assertions that the NTSB "closed the case". Well, here's your own QUOTE (above) where you say exactly that. So let's see, that makes you a liar, doesn't it?
No one from the NTSB told you the case had been closed. Liar.