R44 fatal accident - tail boom failure?
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Helicopter Crash May 1,2006
Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. That Only Means They Have Found What Their Are Looking For, Or Botched The Investigation. As For The Robi Hater I Feel You Have No Idea What Your Talking About. Robinson Has A Great Helicopter It Just Needs Some Work To Make It Safer For All Pilots. (snoopy) I Don't Know Where You Get Your Info From But You Got I Heck Of An Imagination.
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
.....BUT THIS HELICOPTER ONLY HAD 4 HRS ON IT BEFORE IT LEFT TORRENCE, CA. PUTTING THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WITH WARMUP TIME THE SHIP WAS NOT EVEN IN THE AIR AN HOUR. .....!
The hobbs on the R44 is activated by the collective. Therefore, the ground runs do not count towards the hobbs. Some operators add a oil pressure hobbs for billing, but they de not come from the factory that way. So all of the time on the ship was in the air.
I hope you are sincere in your pursuit of the truth of this horrible accident and that you are not just stirring up trouble. My thoughts go out to those that have lost loved ones in accidents like this.
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Rumours, whispers, angry chants and more rumours......
My thoughts go out to the families effected by this loss of life - this is seriously tragic stuff...
Look forward to receiving some info from official sources so that we can all learn from this..
My thoughts go out to the families effected by this loss of life - this is seriously tragic stuff...
Look forward to receiving some info from official sources so that we can all learn from this..
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Flyinhy, if you know something why don't you share it with us. This is an area where we discuss aviation related matters and learn from them. There's no point or meaning in saying that you know something but you don't share it.
Can you back it up? I find the rumours worrying but there are just that, rumours, until you explain or substantiate them
HS
Can you back it up? I find the rumours worrying but there are just that, rumours, until you explain or substantiate them
HS
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How bad are the Rockies for turbulance?
It seems strange to me that a manafacturer would not allow its product to be flown in certain areas. Any aircraft which is airworthy should be able to be flown in most conditions, for which is was designed for.
It would be like a car company saying that it's product is fine, but we strongly advise not to use it on a motorway as at top speed the flux-capacitor will fail.
Is Robinson the only company to stipulate which way a machine departs it factory?
Sympathy to friends, collegues and family of the deceased
Hughesy
It seems strange to me that a manafacturer would not allow its product to be flown in certain areas. Any aircraft which is airworthy should be able to be flown in most conditions, for which is was designed for.
It would be like a car company saying that it's product is fine, but we strongly advise not to use it on a motorway as at top speed the flux-capacitor will fail.
Is Robinson the only company to stipulate which way a machine departs it factory?
Sympathy to friends, collegues and family of the deceased
Hughesy
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I have made the ferry trip one time. I agree that the ferry route (I-10), is the best way to go. This is the southern most route. It keeps your highest point of the route aroud 5500' and the highest airport around 5000.
Any further north puts you into the jet steam where the winds are VERY strong. Anywhere from 40 to sometimes aproaching 100 at altitude.
I did it in Jan in a R22. Even as far down as the I-10 route takes you I still had a leg where I had 50kt tailwinds. It was a real windy trip!
It got real rough for me coming out of Texas.
For my last 600 mile leg, all the way Alabama to the east coast there was not a single general avaition aircraft that I ever heard on the radio. The people looked at me like I was nuts at my fuel stops for flying in those conditions. I had a new found respect for the 22 after that trip.
It was a long day at 65kts
Any further north puts you into the jet steam where the winds are VERY strong. Anywhere from 40 to sometimes aproaching 100 at altitude.
I did it in Jan in a R22. Even as far down as the I-10 route takes you I still had a leg where I had 50kt tailwinds. It was a real windy trip!
It got real rough for me coming out of Texas.
For my last 600 mile leg, all the way Alabama to the east coast there was not a single general avaition aircraft that I ever heard on the radio. The people looked at me like I was nuts at my fuel stops for flying in those conditions. I had a new found respect for the 22 after that trip.
It was a long day at 65kts
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Heli_Sticktime- I can't say on this forum what is going on because i don't know who anybody is you could be working for Robinson for all i know. the investigation as I said is still ongoing throught the FAA. Its not as simply as you might think. This was a Brand NEW HELICOPTER that BROKE up in flight. cruising home to Canada. the flight plan was made by Robinson and followed. this is the same flight plan the same pilot had made 5 times before picking up other Robinson helicopters in the past years. He was very experienced pilot, and did crop dusting as well. The helicopter stopped in air I don't know if i should tell you this. but eventually this is going to be common knowledge. i looking for information, you people are helicopter pilots or mechanics or just for the love of it you know what to look for. why did this helicopter fall out of the sky? question: if the pitch link was broken and found mile from site.(what would cause pitch link to break) one revolution of the blade to the cockpit. one blade showed upward and downward coning, the other downward.what would cause that . read above, no medical, no interference. just cruising.
still does anyone know how long the helicopter has to be tested at Robinson before they let it go to the owner?
i would like answers and also inform others of safety issues i'm not a robinson hater or helicopter hater in general. i just want people to be safe in the air so nobody dies.
http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/awb/62/002.pdf
induced drag- could you explain yourself more to me. because i have a report from the FAA . FAA Advisor Circular 20-95 that assumes 10.5% of operating time will be in autorotation, run-up ,or shut-down.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.
still does anyone know how long the helicopter has to be tested at Robinson before they let it go to the owner?
i would like answers and also inform others of safety issues i'm not a robinson hater or helicopter hater in general. i just want people to be safe in the air so nobody dies.
http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/awb/62/002.pdf
induced drag- could you explain yourself more to me. because i have a report from the FAA . FAA Advisor Circular 20-95 that assumes 10.5% of operating time will be in autorotation, run-up ,or shut-down.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.
Last edited by FLYINHY; 17th Aug 2006 at 20:48.
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Most common for new A/C to have between 4 and 8 hours on the Datcon when they are 'new'. Very rarely have I seen one that has more than 10 hours when recieved (except for ENG ships).
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FLYINHY thanks for the post, it does seem very strange from what you explain, and worrying. I don't work for RH or the CASA or FAA, I'm in South Africa. The link you posted doesn't seem to work, any chance you can see if you can update it. I'd like to read what they have to say. What has RH had to say about the accident?
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what is the protocol, testing procedure of these "new" helicopters?
has anyone been able to go through Robinson factory and see how the ships are made? What safety inspections are in place?
site is update. even more trouble some
by the way RH never an apology, condolences, has become a little snake in a hen house, quiet but sneaky. ready for the kill, but the hen is ready to attack, with help. thanks.
has anyone been able to go through Robinson factory and see how the ships are made? What safety inspections are in place?
site is update. even more trouble some
by the way RH never an apology, condolences, has become a little snake in a hen house, quiet but sneaky. ready for the kill, but the hen is ready to attack, with help. thanks.
Last edited by FLYINHY; 17th Aug 2006 at 22:00.
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
induced drag- could you explain yourself more to me. because i have a report from the FAA . FAA Advisor Circular 20-95 that assumes 10.5% of operating time will be in autorotation, run-up ,or shut-down.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.
I think you are missing my point or I may have misunderstood you. I thought you only felt the 44 had 1 hour of flight testing at Robinson with the rest of the hobbs time (3 hrs) being ground runs.
What I meant was that if it have 4 hrs on the ship, then it had 4 hrs of flight testing. Usually I hear the number of hours testing is around 5 hrs..
The Hobbs on the R44 is NOT an engine hobbs. It is activated by a switch on the collective. It only runs when the collective is off the stop. Therefore you could run at 100% on the ground for hours and not click a 10th on the hobbs. This is how the ship was certified.
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I have been to the Robinson factory at least 5 times. I have had two full tours of the facility and I have ferried two new Robinsons away from the factory to Canada.
The first new ship had 5.2 hours on it and my memory is the second was around the same. As stated above; that is 5.2 hours of testing in the air. During the Robinson Safety course I flew for 1.1 hours with a Robinson test pilot. We actually used Frank Robinsons own ship as the course was full and a one hour flight was part of the deal and they were short of helicopters. It was the same as all the rest.
After touring the factory I have even more confidence in the Robinson product. The pace is state of the art or better, clean and organized. If you have not seen a 500,000 square foot CNC precision factory before it is worth the trip alone.
I have no idea what brought down that R-44, if you have the knowledge you say you do then just tell the story.
The first new ship had 5.2 hours on it and my memory is the second was around the same. As stated above; that is 5.2 hours of testing in the air. During the Robinson Safety course I flew for 1.1 hours with a Robinson test pilot. We actually used Frank Robinsons own ship as the course was full and a one hour flight was part of the deal and they were short of helicopters. It was the same as all the rest.
After touring the factory I have even more confidence in the Robinson product. The pace is state of the art or better, clean and organized. If you have not seen a 500,000 square foot CNC precision factory before it is worth the trip alone.
I have no idea what brought down that R-44, if you have the knowledge you say you do then just tell the story.
Pardon me for bringing this up, but was there another US accident with a Robinson in the last week?
I have never been fortunate enough to train to fly a helicopter, but have worked with guys who have and wish that I had the money for such training. One is a reserve Instructor on the Bell Jet Ranger with the US Navy VT in Pensacola. Another guy flies part-time in Louisiana and reportedly earns a very good salary.
I have never been fortunate enough to train to fly a helicopter, but have worked with guys who have and wish that I had the money for such training. One is a reserve Instructor on the Bell Jet Ranger with the US Navy VT in Pensacola. Another guy flies part-time in Louisiana and reportedly earns a very good salary.
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R44 went down Aug 13,2006
NTSB reported SEA06FA159
R44, destroyed after colliding with ocean waters aprox. 1mile west of Camp Rilea, Warrenton, Oregon. The refueled in Astoria, Oregon heading towards Long Beach. Just another example of a well made piece of machinery. can't wait too hear this one too. i'd guess oh pilot error, no wait the weather.http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X01202&key=1
R44, destroyed after colliding with ocean waters aprox. 1mile west of Camp Rilea, Warrenton, Oregon. The refueled in Astoria, Oregon heading towards Long Beach. Just another example of a well made piece of machinery. can't wait too hear this one too. i'd guess oh pilot error, no wait the weather.http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X01202&key=1
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The Hobbs on the R44 is NOT an engine hobbs. It is activated by a switch on the colle
induced drag- So, correct me if i'm wrong but what your saying is that when they test these hobbs they test with the collective on 100% and do not leave the ground. so this is just engine time of 4 hours. because the 1.2hrs was when the pilot was in control of the new ship. that what the records indicate. also, again tell me if i've been misinformed on this too, but i also was told this was an unreliable source that the new ship are tested in flight by the pilots that come for training. can anyone expand on this?
what ships do they use?
what ships do they use?
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Hate seeing pilot error finger pointing.
I am saddened to see any loss of life, always sympathies to all those affected.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?
Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.
If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?
Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.
I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.
HF
Heliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?
Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.
If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?
Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.
I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.
HFHeliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.
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Originally Posted by FLYINHY
induced drag- So, correct me if i'm wrong but what your saying is that when they test these hobbs they test with the collective on 100% and do not leave the ground. so this is just engine time of 4 hours. because the 1.2hrs was when the pilot was in control of the new ship. that what the records indicate. also, again tell me if i've been misinformed on this too, but i also was told this was an unreliable source that the new ship are tested in flight by the pilots that come for training. can anyone expand on this?
what ships do they use?
what ships do they use?
I think you are misunderstanding me. This is a small point and really not important in the big picture.
What I am saying is simply:
The Hobbs meter in the ship only operates when the ship is flying as it is activated by a switch on the collective.....period
So all 4 hours were airbourne and not ground running....Not that this matters....
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Originally Posted by HELOFAN
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
.
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
.
I think it is just a function of pure numbers.... This is a quote off of schweizers website:
The Model 269 Series helicopters, (including the piston-powered Model 300C and 300CBi and the turbine-powered 333) have been in series prodcution since the mid-1960's. Nearly 3,000 269 Series helicopters have been produced.
So including all the 269's 300 AND 333's almost 3000 have been produced.
Now this is going back to the 60's. Of those ships, some smaller fraction are still flying.
Now take Robinson. Off thier website, on 1/9/06 the 5000th R22 was sold. I would say that a greater portion of the 22's are still flying then the 269 series due to the 12yr overhaul and the fact that the fleet is much younger. Less ships written off or fallen in to dis-repair
the R22 alone has in 20years outsold 2 to 1 a ship that has been around for 40years.
Now add the R44 in the mix and you are talking about aproaching 7000 helicopters produced.!! That is alot of ships.
Just plain statistics that these ships are involved in more accidents....
Compare that to the Jet Ranger and since the mid sixties, 4400 206's have been produced. (Not including OH58's)
In 2000 and 2001 the company delivered a whopping 14 ships, and in 2002 it jumped to 20.
So long story short....with the numbers of ships Robinson is putting out.....they are simply more likely to be involved.
This condition is ever increasing as Robinson continues to dominate and gain even more market share.
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hmm now if a scale was applied to even it out ( number of ships produced over time ) would the number of ships per production over time be even or at a higher/lower rate?
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[quote=FLYINHY]
THE SHIP WAS STOPPED IN AIR AND FELL OUT OF THE SKY THE TAILBOOM WAS SEPARATED BY THE FORCE OF THE BLADES COMING AROUND AND ENTERING THE COCKPIT.
All of the accidents I have heard of in which MR blades have departed their normal plane of rotation and contacted the cockpit were due to a Low-G situation. Wouldn't a MR hub, blade or linkage failure more likely result in parts traveling out and away from the airframe?
How does one know for certain that the non-rated passenger was not on the controls?
THE SHIP WAS STOPPED IN AIR AND FELL OUT OF THE SKY THE TAILBOOM WAS SEPARATED BY THE FORCE OF THE BLADES COMING AROUND AND ENTERING THE COCKPIT.
All of the accidents I have heard of in which MR blades have departed their normal plane of rotation and contacted the cockpit were due to a Low-G situation. Wouldn't a MR hub, blade or linkage failure more likely result in parts traveling out and away from the airframe?
How does one know for certain that the non-rated passenger was not on the controls?