Pilot Brits abroad: Why not come back to the UK?
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mongoose237
Your concession that your school analogy is "not quite the same" is a spectacular under-statement. It's entirely different.
It's such a shame some British contributors seem to confirm that image.
Xenophobic?
Most of the criticisms I've read in various threads have been by Brits - many of whom find it difficult or impossible to achieve their ambition in their own country because of the requirements imposed upon them. Given that this is an English language forum, we can't know with certainty what the majority of other Europeans think, but those who speak English and post on Pprune seem to make the same criticisms.
The image you describe is by no means entirely inaccurate. I don't think we have come to terms with the decline of the British Empire. I believe it's the root of the deeply embedded, but embarrassingly quaint and absurd, notion that we're the best in the world at everything, not just aviation - and have nothing to learn from these upstart countries. (My profession is no better.)
Speak to some senior CAA personnel about the FAA and one could easily get the impression that America is some third world country which has just discovered aviation. Speak to them about FAA licence requirements and one gets the impression that it's only by luck that FAA qualified pilots find their way across the Atlantic and little short of a miracle that they don't crash on the way or fall on London in their attempts to land at Heathrow.
Interesting that you should mention the FAA and CASA. My impression from reading the forum over the years is that their helicopter pilots (together with Canada) do some of the most challenging flying in the world.
Is there any justification for the so-called 'safety' argument in support of the JAA's training and licensing requirements?
Is there evidence that (for example) FAA and CASA pilots are less safe than JAA pilots?
People have tried very hard to do so in this thread. If you read from the beginning it's quite obvious where the problem lies.
_
Your concession that your school analogy is "not quite the same" is a spectacular under-statement. It's entirely different.
using the term JAA as synonimous with British so as to perpetuate their own xenophobic beliefs that the UK is a nation of handlebar-moustached wing commanders and Basil Fawlty's who haven't quite come to terms with the decline of their Empire.
Xenophobic?
Most of the criticisms I've read in various threads have been by Brits - many of whom find it difficult or impossible to achieve their ambition in their own country because of the requirements imposed upon them. Given that this is an English language forum, we can't know with certainty what the majority of other Europeans think, but those who speak English and post on Pprune seem to make the same criticisms.
The image you describe is by no means entirely inaccurate. I don't think we have come to terms with the decline of the British Empire. I believe it's the root of the deeply embedded, but embarrassingly quaint and absurd, notion that we're the best in the world at everything, not just aviation - and have nothing to learn from these upstart countries. (My profession is no better.)
Speak to some senior CAA personnel about the FAA and one could easily get the impression that America is some third world country which has just discovered aviation. Speak to them about FAA licence requirements and one gets the impression that it's only by luck that FAA qualified pilots find their way across the Atlantic and little short of a miracle that they don't crash on the way or fall on London in their attempts to land at Heathrow.
Interesting that you should mention the FAA and CASA. My impression from reading the forum over the years is that their helicopter pilots (together with Canada) do some of the most challenging flying in the world.
Is there any justification for the so-called 'safety' argument in support of the JAA's training and licensing requirements?
Is there evidence that (for example) FAA and CASA pilots are less safe than JAA pilots?
This topic is never discussed objectively, it is too emotive.
_
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 30th Mar 2006 at 18:52.
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from the bottom up...
...well, from the bottom rung of the ladder...
It appears the only people argueing the relative merits of either system and getting emotive about it are those that don't have to make the decision anymore.
From us starting out it's a very clear and logical choice..
Can you afford to learn under JAA, YES/NO ?
I'm from the UK, would like to learn and fly in the UK, but simply can't afford it.
The only affordable route open to me is the FAA one (which I don't consider to be second best, given the experience to be gained from a new location).
What I find surprising is how well the yanks take us going over there, and taking FI jobs.
It's little surprise they feel a little agrieved it's not reciprocated and I'm inclined to agree with them.
If it wasn't for the FAA I wouldn't have the chance to do this..and I'm willing as I'm sure all the other FAA/CASA trainees are, to take our chances round the globe finding work until we can come back, if we want to..
I've made my choices and will take my chances, same as anyone under any system - all it takes is a little thinking outside the box to find a way round it - skills that would be well learnt under any system
y'all have a nice day now
It appears the only people argueing the relative merits of either system and getting emotive about it are those that don't have to make the decision anymore.
From us starting out it's a very clear and logical choice..
Can you afford to learn under JAA, YES/NO ?
I'm from the UK, would like to learn and fly in the UK, but simply can't afford it.
The only affordable route open to me is the FAA one (which I don't consider to be second best, given the experience to be gained from a new location).
What I find surprising is how well the yanks take us going over there, and taking FI jobs.
It's little surprise they feel a little agrieved it's not reciprocated and I'm inclined to agree with them.
If it wasn't for the FAA I wouldn't have the chance to do this..and I'm willing as I'm sure all the other FAA/CASA trainees are, to take our chances round the globe finding work until we can come back, if we want to..
I've made my choices and will take my chances, same as anyone under any system - all it takes is a little thinking outside the box to find a way round it - skills that would be well learnt under any system
y'all have a nice day now
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Flying Lawyer
I'm afraid I disagree with you on a number of grounds, and I have been through several professional pilot licencing systems - before going through the JAA system - so I feel I do have a benchmark above and beyond what I read. However, remaining on track:
The cost per flying hour will not significantly reduce, irrespective of training requirements, and I feel the major motivating factor in criticism of JAA is the cost of getting a licence, not the requirements. In fact the expensive bit - the flying - is very rarely criticised at PPL or CPL level (my own being the 5 hours of instruments at PPL level but thankfully a u-turn is being considered). Yes, the theory is onerous, but the theory cost equates to about 5% of the total training cost which is largely fixed by factors beyond those generated by JAA requirements, and personally I don't think 6 months of theory is out the question to train someone who knows nothing about aviation, flying or helicopters up to the standard of a professional pilot. The CAA fees are ridiculous, but again a small percentage of the total training cost.
I have read it from the beginning and the topic has largely taken the same line it always does whenever it is debated, ad nauseum. And I suspect we have differing opinions too on what "obvious" conclusions we deduce from these sorts of threads.
But the world would be a boring place if we didn't all have our own opinion.
BlueStack
Good luck, we don't all have apathy towards the new pilots. I suggest reading threads by Jemax who gave a very good indication of how you can do things cost effectively and extremely expeditiously in the UK, and I also suggest reading my thread about what is involved in converting your future FAA licence back to JAA.
Remember it is highly likely that you will be unable to remain in America after the expiry of your J1 so a conversion may well have to be budgeted for. Even with a 1000 hours under your belt from the States - which is slightly more than most would appear to return with - if you intend to make a living of flying onshore in the UK it will be as an FI, not a charter pilot. Therefore once you have paid for:
1. Training in America
2. Conversion to JAA CPL
3. Adding various type ratings to your licence to make you employable
4. JAA Flight Instructor
and during your time instructing in the US only having earnt back a fraction of what you would have earnt during that year in the UK as an FI (between £18000 - £24000) the long term savings may not be as great as would appear. Particularly if you hour build abroad but do your training in the UK ... and no, I don't have a vested interest, I only instruct very infrequently
I'm afraid I disagree with you on a number of grounds, and I have been through several professional pilot licencing systems - before going through the JAA system - so I feel I do have a benchmark above and beyond what I read. However, remaining on track:
The cost per flying hour will not significantly reduce, irrespective of training requirements, and I feel the major motivating factor in criticism of JAA is the cost of getting a licence, not the requirements. In fact the expensive bit - the flying - is very rarely criticised at PPL or CPL level (my own being the 5 hours of instruments at PPL level but thankfully a u-turn is being considered). Yes, the theory is onerous, but the theory cost equates to about 5% of the total training cost which is largely fixed by factors beyond those generated by JAA requirements, and personally I don't think 6 months of theory is out the question to train someone who knows nothing about aviation, flying or helicopters up to the standard of a professional pilot. The CAA fees are ridiculous, but again a small percentage of the total training cost.
I have read it from the beginning and the topic has largely taken the same line it always does whenever it is debated, ad nauseum. And I suspect we have differing opinions too on what "obvious" conclusions we deduce from these sorts of threads.
But the world would be a boring place if we didn't all have our own opinion.
BlueStack
Good luck, we don't all have apathy towards the new pilots. I suggest reading threads by Jemax who gave a very good indication of how you can do things cost effectively and extremely expeditiously in the UK, and I also suggest reading my thread about what is involved in converting your future FAA licence back to JAA.
Remember it is highly likely that you will be unable to remain in America after the expiry of your J1 so a conversion may well have to be budgeted for. Even with a 1000 hours under your belt from the States - which is slightly more than most would appear to return with - if you intend to make a living of flying onshore in the UK it will be as an FI, not a charter pilot. Therefore once you have paid for:
1. Training in America
2. Conversion to JAA CPL
3. Adding various type ratings to your licence to make you employable
4. JAA Flight Instructor
and during your time instructing in the US only having earnt back a fraction of what you would have earnt during that year in the UK as an FI (between £18000 - £24000) the long term savings may not be as great as would appear. Particularly if you hour build abroad but do your training in the UK ... and no, I don't have a vested interest, I only instruct very infrequently
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Originally Posted by mongoose237
Lets look at the two systems who have a mutual dislike of JAA - under one of the systems you can become an instructor almost straight after CPL. The other you must have (IIRC) 360 hours total time, and then a 40 hour course. So, are all you Australian Instructors superior to the FAA instructors, and therefore producing a better pilot? If yes, I would be interested to hear your justifications. If no, so how do you justify 400 hours for an new instructor?
Well, everybody has to start somewhere. I am not sure what your opinion on the 200 hour FI in the US is, but anyway...
The 200 hour FI is going to train the "new student" including gaining more understanding and experience himself. Is a pilot with 15.000 hours working commecial gonna train a new student any better than the guy with 200 hours? The differences I see is that the 15.000 hour pilot has more experience flying, and probably have forgotten some of the ground he learned in the beginning. Ofcourse it would be different if you have a FI with experience in instructing. But not many want to do that, do they...?
Can a new student gain on the 15.000 hour pilot's experiences in a R-22?
Maybe, but probably not. He doesnt even know how to hover.
I am from Europe, and I think the US system regaring FI is very good. They have found a way to get their pilots the first experience within Aviation.
And yes, the JAA might be good in some ways. I just wanted to know how it realy is. Just talked to a guy coming from Europe today. He has been in the UK almost 1 year converting now, hasnt flown for this time and are now done with he's ATP ground.
He's answer to how the ground was: "The JAA ground sucks" and even the teachers at the school he attended told the students that they would probably forget about 80% of what they have to learn. But its a JAA requierment.
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One advantage for the new instructor (FAA CFI) is that all the information is still fresh and he keeps repeating it for a 1000 hours and that might be an advantage.
Flying wise I think having a more experienced instructor is just better, there are a lot with 200 hours or less, who can't really fly. The perfect mix is instructors with commercial 'real life' experience. But again this is my opinion.
Are there that many accidents with low-time instructors? Answer yes, read the NTSB reports.
As you already know I'm not in favour in this discussion of JAA or FAA.
Flying wise I think having a more experienced instructor is just better, there are a lot with 200 hours or less, who can't really fly. The perfect mix is instructors with commercial 'real life' experience. But again this is my opinion.
Are there that many accidents with low-time instructors? Answer yes, read the NTSB reports.
As you already know I'm not in favour in this discussion of JAA or FAA.
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Nicely put 'Bluestack'
Money was certainly an issue for me with regards to gaining my FI.
Hopefully I will be able to gain a load more experience as an instructor, then move on somewhere else in the world.
I love the UK but its not the only place to fly.
Money was certainly an issue for me with regards to gaining my FI.
Hopefully I will be able to gain a load more experience as an instructor, then move on somewhere else in the world.
I love the UK but its not the only place to fly.
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Thanks for that Mongoose, I have read your thread appreciatively and have also pointed others towards Jemax's post regarding what's involved..
I have no intention of remaining in the US after my J1 runs out (although would be good if it happened - not planning on it).
I have budgeted for my conversion on return (whenever that happens).
Without going into my specifics, Jemax had quit his job for a year - so will be liable to the same loss of earnings as myself.
I don't see the licence issue charges or exam fees levied by the CAA as a show-stopper given the costs the newbies are enduring already, I understand the need to get the legal and procedure right - it's just the per hour flying costs.
Even doing some hour building abroad, I can't see how it's as cheap here once you factor in loss of earnings and running expenses in UK. One months UK mortage gets me 4 months accomodation in Florida. (my mortgage incidentally is being paid by rental while I'm way).
I agree with your 4 points, and the respective costs, even though I still think it's cheaper overall, but probably not by much - but that's missing the point.
Myself like so many others starting out aren't planning on avoiding coming back - we're just not staying in the first place
I have no intention of remaining in the US after my J1 runs out (although would be good if it happened - not planning on it).
I have budgeted for my conversion on return (whenever that happens).
Without going into my specifics, Jemax had quit his job for a year - so will be liable to the same loss of earnings as myself.
I don't see the licence issue charges or exam fees levied by the CAA as a show-stopper given the costs the newbies are enduring already, I understand the need to get the legal and procedure right - it's just the per hour flying costs.
Even doing some hour building abroad, I can't see how it's as cheap here once you factor in loss of earnings and running expenses in UK. One months UK mortage gets me 4 months accomodation in Florida. (my mortgage incidentally is being paid by rental while I'm way).
I agree with your 4 points, and the respective costs, even though I still think it's cheaper overall, but probably not by much - but that's missing the point.
Myself like so many others starting out aren't planning on avoiding coming back - we're just not staying in the first place
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Mortennb
I have voiced my views on new instructors elsewhere on this forum. I don't enter the "safety" debate, nor the better-pilot-by-passport argument because it is preposterous.
Bluestack
I wasn't trying to convince you one way or another, merely help with a broader picture before making such a huge commitment. Different routes suit different people but I find it so sad when peoples careers get cut down before they really started because they didn't know the whole story and ran out of steam (read: money) at the final hurdle.
I am guessing that the ratio of J1 visa holders to CFI openings isn't that great, which would tally up with the hours I saw on such peoples CVs. I also hear that some schools are struggling to keep to time estimates on training. So maximise the time wherever you can. Perhaps get a PPL on an M1 visa (or in another country) and do the CPL study then get your J1 visa provided you don't have too many hours. Do your FAA licences and get a job. Whilst working as a CFI, sign on with a distance learning JAA theory provider. At the end of the 2 years, back to the UK for a few months for medical and exams, then an M1 visa back to HAI for CPL and FI conversion courses. Thats merely a suggestion rather than a recommendation; one of the multitude of ways to skin the proverbial cat
Knowing the systems will save a lot of heartache and expense.
Anyway, this is hijacking the thread and as I don't have anything I would like to add to the original debate I will wish you all good luck!
I have voiced my views on new instructors elsewhere on this forum. I don't enter the "safety" debate, nor the better-pilot-by-passport argument because it is preposterous.
Bluestack
I wasn't trying to convince you one way or another, merely help with a broader picture before making such a huge commitment. Different routes suit different people but I find it so sad when peoples careers get cut down before they really started because they didn't know the whole story and ran out of steam (read: money) at the final hurdle.
I am guessing that the ratio of J1 visa holders to CFI openings isn't that great, which would tally up with the hours I saw on such peoples CVs. I also hear that some schools are struggling to keep to time estimates on training. So maximise the time wherever you can. Perhaps get a PPL on an M1 visa (or in another country) and do the CPL study then get your J1 visa provided you don't have too many hours. Do your FAA licences and get a job. Whilst working as a CFI, sign on with a distance learning JAA theory provider. At the end of the 2 years, back to the UK for a few months for medical and exams, then an M1 visa back to HAI for CPL and FI conversion courses. Thats merely a suggestion rather than a recommendation; one of the multitude of ways to skin the proverbial cat
Knowing the systems will save a lot of heartache and expense.
Anyway, this is hijacking the thread and as I don't have anything I would like to add to the original debate I will wish you all good luck!
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nope - wasn't thinking you were trying to convince me mongoose - and do appreciate the broader view you're offering.
research, research , research...is the only way to make it work.
This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned thinking outside the box, and it's worth taking the time to get it right - there's a few tricks I'd have missed had I just gone in cheque book blazing.
Like you - I'm not going to hijack this any more either.
Appreciate the advice.
Bluestack
research, research , research...is the only way to make it work.
This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned thinking outside the box, and it's worth taking the time to get it right - there's a few tricks I'd have missed had I just gone in cheque book blazing.
Like you - I'm not going to hijack this any more either.
Appreciate the advice.
Bluestack
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Autosync,
Not having a go at non-JAA rated pilots??? I seem to recall someone being called an "FAA whinger wanted everything handed to him on a plate".
Get it through your head - the JAA system is antiquated and out of touch with the rest of the ICAO world and that is the answer to the question originally posted.
I have not had the UK CAA frontal lobotomy but if I had to, I would.
Get real here. "Your" system needs a 100 hourly.
Not having a go at non-JAA rated pilots??? I seem to recall someone being called an "FAA whinger wanted everything handed to him on a plate".
Get it through your head - the JAA system is antiquated and out of touch with the rest of the ICAO world and that is the answer to the question originally posted.
I have not had the UK CAA frontal lobotomy but if I had to, I would.
Get real here. "Your" system needs a 100 hourly.
I have never found that nationality, country (or source) of training, or the system that you are certified under has the slightest difference on your ability to perform any function in aviation.
I have found that attitude, capability, commitment, basic intelligence, diplomacy and the ability to interact with all kinds of human beings has everything to do with success.
I have met as many highly trained, and qualified, assholes; as I have poorly trained or qualiifed assholes. I have met assholes of every nationality. I have military trained assholes and civilian trained assholes. I have met foreign assholes and domestic assholes (and I've been around)!
But you know what I met the most off?
Real life helicopter people that are committed to their jobs and responsibilities. People that commit their lives and careers to the helicopter business. They deserve fair pay and conditions. They deserve respect and recognition for what they do. They don't believe they are superior to anyone else, or peculiarly talented. They are the real, everyday, people in our business.
Go to the HAI or Helitech. There are hundreds (thousands!) of us there. We quietly get on. Interrogate each other for vital intelligence, just like her on PPRuNe, have a few beers, reconnect on lost friends, catch up on recent developments and look toward the future.
The helicopter business is not about the regulatory authority, it is about the Operators and the business environment. This is a fabulous time to take advantage of it.
I have found that attitude, capability, commitment, basic intelligence, diplomacy and the ability to interact with all kinds of human beings has everything to do with success.
I have met as many highly trained, and qualified, assholes; as I have poorly trained or qualiifed assholes. I have met assholes of every nationality. I have military trained assholes and civilian trained assholes. I have met foreign assholes and domestic assholes (and I've been around)!
But you know what I met the most off?
Real life helicopter people that are committed to their jobs and responsibilities. People that commit their lives and careers to the helicopter business. They deserve fair pay and conditions. They deserve respect and recognition for what they do. They don't believe they are superior to anyone else, or peculiarly talented. They are the real, everyday, people in our business.
Go to the HAI or Helitech. There are hundreds (thousands!) of us there. We quietly get on. Interrogate each other for vital intelligence, just like her on PPRuNe, have a few beers, reconnect on lost friends, catch up on recent developments and look toward the future.
The helicopter business is not about the regulatory authority, it is about the Operators and the business environment. This is a fabulous time to take advantage of it.
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Agreed
Fully agree with you Cyclic Hotline.
I've worked both sides of the Atlantic (plus other places) and did my original training in the US. I came back here to the UK with plenty of experience and had to do all the ridiculous exams. I spent nearly six months being out of work whilst I learnt nothing of any consequence and and paid a fortune for the privilege.
The UK syllabus was sadly lacking in a number of very important areas whilst being wildly over the top with unnecessary technical twaddle.
The US flight training and standards are constantly belittled on this forum and almost always by people who have no experience of it. I have read on this forum that a simple 1.5 hour flight test is all that is required. I remember my Instrument instructors checkride lasting from 0900 to 1900. the flight part was around 1.5 hrs. I can assure you that it was FAR more difficult than ANY part of the UK flight testing.
Helicopters fly just the same way here as they do on all the other continents (true).
I've been here long enough! I'm going back to the US
I've worked both sides of the Atlantic (plus other places) and did my original training in the US. I came back here to the UK with plenty of experience and had to do all the ridiculous exams. I spent nearly six months being out of work whilst I learnt nothing of any consequence and and paid a fortune for the privilege.
The UK syllabus was sadly lacking in a number of very important areas whilst being wildly over the top with unnecessary technical twaddle.
The US flight training and standards are constantly belittled on this forum and almost always by people who have no experience of it. I have read on this forum that a simple 1.5 hour flight test is all that is required. I remember my Instrument instructors checkride lasting from 0900 to 1900. the flight part was around 1.5 hrs. I can assure you that it was FAR more difficult than ANY part of the UK flight testing.
Helicopters fly just the same way here as they do on all the other continents (true).
I've been here long enough! I'm going back to the US
