Seeing is Believing!
Thread Starter
Seeing is Believing!
Thomas Coupling has told us of the long wait for CAA approval for Police Pilots to use NVG's. The practice in the past was for the non-pilot crewmembers to use the devices and the pilot to use the MK I eyeball.
This video shows the minor and insignificant difference in vision between the two methods.
Does anyone have any doubt as to the value NVG's for night flying? View the video and then ask yourself that question again.
http://www.henry1.com/nvg/NVG%20Lost%20Hikers.wmv
This video shows the minor and insignificant difference in vision between the two methods.
Does anyone have any doubt as to the value NVG's for night flying? View the video and then ask yourself that question again.
http://www.henry1.com/nvg/NVG%20Lost%20Hikers.wmv
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I'm convinced... what's the hangup with using them?
I would have thought the cost of purchase and even training would be insignificant compared to the overall cost of running the aircraft and all the associated overheads.
I would have thought the cost of purchase and even training would be insignificant compared to the overall cost of running the aircraft and all the associated overheads.
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Originally Posted by SASless
Thomas Coupling has told us of the long wait for CAA approval for Police Pilots to use NVG's. The practice in the past was for the non-pilot crewmembers to use the devices and the pilot to use the MK I eyeball.
This video shows the minor and insignificant difference in vision between the two methods.
Does anyone have any doubt as to the value NVG's for night flying? View the video and then ask yourself that question again.
http://www.henry1.com/nvg/NVG%20Lost%20Hikers.wmv
This video shows the minor and insignificant difference in vision between the two methods.
Does anyone have any doubt as to the value NVG's for night flying? View the video and then ask yourself that question again.
http://www.henry1.com/nvg/NVG%20Lost%20Hikers.wmv
You're right SASless - a good video which should be very helpful to the cause. I only hope that people don't get the impression that NVG should only be used in open dimly-lit areas though; my own experience is that even in urban/congested areas they provide a substantial increase to the crew's situational awareness and effectiveness.
Wasn't too impressed by the internal cockpit reflections though - unless that was all from the people with the torch/"flashlight" on the ground.
Wasn't too impressed by the internal cockpit reflections though - unless that was all from the people with the torch/"flashlight" on the ground.
Hi all,
no doubt, flying with NVG can be safer - especially when having an emergency.
But it can be detrimental to your health, if you're not properly trained.
There are more then one pitfall relating to NVG-flying - and thats why additional to a ground course, at least 15 hours training AND a minimum currency is mandatory for operating with NVG.
It is one thing to see the capabilities of NVG at good conditions - it is a different story at bad conditions. I ended up in a shower in the hillsides, air traffic telling me, that 15 NM around the wheather was the same, no landing spot available, hovering along a 200 feet powerline, which I followed with my landing light, because if I had lost it, the risk ending up in it was high.
It payed off, that we operate NVG with a crew of two - no chance to check inside the cockpit without flying several seconds blind. In that condition - loosing the wires in the landinglight - could have been deadly.
I'm convinced, that NVG-operations should only be done with a crew of two.
Itī s much more to NVG-flying then just putting them on - don't forget that, when wanting them.
And don't forget the extra weight on your head/neck - there are no longtime experiances - but there are already NVG-pilots with problems...
Greeting Flying Bull
no doubt, flying with NVG can be safer - especially when having an emergency.
But it can be detrimental to your health, if you're not properly trained.
There are more then one pitfall relating to NVG-flying - and thats why additional to a ground course, at least 15 hours training AND a minimum currency is mandatory for operating with NVG.
It is one thing to see the capabilities of NVG at good conditions - it is a different story at bad conditions. I ended up in a shower in the hillsides, air traffic telling me, that 15 NM around the wheather was the same, no landing spot available, hovering along a 200 feet powerline, which I followed with my landing light, because if I had lost it, the risk ending up in it was high.
It payed off, that we operate NVG with a crew of two - no chance to check inside the cockpit without flying several seconds blind. In that condition - loosing the wires in the landinglight - could have been deadly.
I'm convinced, that NVG-operations should only be done with a crew of two.
Itī s much more to NVG-flying then just putting them on - don't forget that, when wanting them.
And don't forget the extra weight on your head/neck - there are no longtime experiances - but there are already NVG-pilots with problems...
Greeting Flying Bull
Thread Starter
Where and how did you arrive at a 15 hour training requirement?
Are not NVG's supposed to be an aid to night flying and not an excuse to lower the weather minimums in which one operates?
Are not NVG's supposed to be an aid to night flying and not an excuse to lower the weather minimums in which one operates?
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SASless - Exactly - but the case made for NVG invariably is of the "turns night into day" model. Anyone with any experience knows this is not the case.
That said, taking to the night skies without 'em is fairly crazy.
The 15 hrs is the initial qual. followed by around 1:30 per month (for the mil that is). That is the minimum assessed time to fit in all the basic stuff in about 6 sorties.
That said, taking to the night skies without 'em is fairly crazy.
The 15 hrs is the initial qual. followed by around 1:30 per month (for the mil that is). That is the minimum assessed time to fit in all the basic stuff in about 6 sorties.
Thread Starter
I guess we talk less then....6-10 hours does us. That included remote site landings with no lights on darkest nights of the month, low-level tactical approaches/takeoffs, landing in amongst wires and obstacles in very tight areas, and doing single skid landings.
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Very impressive, interested to know how the Sonoma County Sheriff's heli made that video?
Looks like a handheld camera, I guess with the NVG component attached as a lens, with a second camera alongside? Or one input, with the image split through a NVG and a normal image processer?
If a proper task, searching for the hikers, why such a high speed pass and a what height over that ridge?
Not condeming the video, it's very impressive and I am gladly awaiting authority for NVG's over here. It just has that "promotional video for the NVG company" feel about it.
Looks like a handheld camera, I guess with the NVG component attached as a lens, with a second camera alongside? Or one input, with the image split through a NVG and a normal image processer?
If a proper task, searching for the hikers, why such a high speed pass and a what height over that ridge?
Not condeming the video, it's very impressive and I am gladly awaiting authority for NVG's over here. It just has that "promotional video for the NVG company" feel about it.
Thread Starter
Aeromys,
Perhaps merely accepting the short video at face value....and not getting involved in dissecting the thing would be enough for you. Perhaps it was not even a real search, maybe the "lost hikers" were actors only, maybe it was in fact a sales pitch promotional.....bottomline....it serves a good purpose to show the difference between the unaided eye and that equipped with NVG's.
I would suggest it is pretty effective at doing that.
There are many among us who have no concept of the value NVG's brings to night flying.....sounds like the CAA is among them as long as it took for them to get around to approving the use of NVG's (with restrictions of course).
Perhaps merely accepting the short video at face value....and not getting involved in dissecting the thing would be enough for you. Perhaps it was not even a real search, maybe the "lost hikers" were actors only, maybe it was in fact a sales pitch promotional.....bottomline....it serves a good purpose to show the difference between the unaided eye and that equipped with NVG's.
I would suggest it is pretty effective at doing that.
There are many among us who have no concept of the value NVG's brings to night flying.....sounds like the CAA is among them as long as it took for them to get around to approving the use of NVG's (with restrictions of course).
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SASless,
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in NVG and am only playing Devils's Advocate as far as the video is concerned. Alas it will always be my nature NOT to take things at "face value", and I wouldn't want to be taken in by what appears to be a very set up piece of imagery, without at least some professional interpretation other than your own very enthusiastic one (with all due respect).
Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer in NVG and am only playing Devils's Advocate as far as the video is concerned. Alas it will always be my nature NOT to take things at "face value", and I wouldn't want to be taken in by what appears to be a very set up piece of imagery, without at least some professional interpretation other than your own very enthusiastic one (with all due respect).
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A good video of NVGs invaluable benefits.....on the most perfect night one can imagine! On a bad night you would not have seen the hill in the foreground until youre about 30-50m away. (and even then it would be smooth like a sand dune)
The reflective glare is 'standard' for NVG ops, even with a compatible lighting system.
Im 100% convinced that NVGs should be available to the civil helo population but I am also convinced that training in their use must be mandated to agencies/operators who can monitor & evaluate their safe usage.
These are excellent devices that have very serious pitfalls.
Knowing when not to use them is just as important and having NVG compatible cockpit lighting system is essential.
Having an advanced level of understanding of how your eye 'perceives' images (ie: how you brain sees them) and most importantly how the brain processes monocular vs binocular cues is very important. There are things you learnt as a child that just do not hold 100% true on NVGs.
NVGs are an aid only...and not the holy grail of night flying. The mere fact 20yrs on still say "they turn night into day" shows that education on NVGs hasnt come far enough.
Ex military guys are not trying to put you off. Its just that we've all been scared to death at some point on NVGs.
As an NVG instructor all my students went through these phases:
1-4hrs: Amazed & a touch scared.
5-10hrs: Loving it
11-25hrs: Bullet proof
@25hrs: 1st big fright (due over confidence)
25-100hrs: Treading carefully but loving it
100hrs: The slow realisation that things things are going to kill you eventually.
200hrs: Only doing it because you have to.
300hrs: Id rather call in sick!
The reflective glare is 'standard' for NVG ops, even with a compatible lighting system.
Im 100% convinced that NVGs should be available to the civil helo population but I am also convinced that training in their use must be mandated to agencies/operators who can monitor & evaluate their safe usage.
These are excellent devices that have very serious pitfalls.
Knowing when not to use them is just as important and having NVG compatible cockpit lighting system is essential.
Having an advanced level of understanding of how your eye 'perceives' images (ie: how you brain sees them) and most importantly how the brain processes monocular vs binocular cues is very important. There are things you learnt as a child that just do not hold 100% true on NVGs.
NVGs are an aid only...and not the holy grail of night flying. The mere fact 20yrs on still say "they turn night into day" shows that education on NVGs hasnt come far enough.
Ex military guys are not trying to put you off. Its just that we've all been scared to death at some point on NVGs.
As an NVG instructor all my students went through these phases:
1-4hrs: Amazed & a touch scared.
5-10hrs: Loving it
11-25hrs: Bullet proof
@25hrs: 1st big fright (due over confidence)
25-100hrs: Treading carefully but loving it
100hrs: The slow realisation that things things are going to kill you eventually.
200hrs: Only doing it because you have to.
300hrs: Id rather call in sick!
Are NVG operating/physiological limitations being applied?
After the Puma/Gazz incident in S.Armagh, the boffins at Farnborough were asked to carry out numerous tests involving gogs/ambient lighting etc. To say that gogs were rushed into use in NI is a bit of an understatement......AAC/RAF politics sought out the first sqn to be truely, 100% 24/7 capable...but that's another story.
What shocked the boffins was the lack of time sqns gave before flipping the gogs down and using them in anger. Something to do with the carrots and cones but, suffice to say, the RAF atleast were shooting around, using gogs without letting pilots eyes fully acclimatise.
Boffin went off to make some telephone calls because he thought we must have been mistaken - only to return after, I guess, having been told to get back in his box!
I understand technology has improved since early 90s but I know our eyes haven't.
Boffins stated 40mins min to acclimatise, sortie length 5 minutes.....bit of a problem there.
What's the latest wisdom?
What shocked the boffins was the lack of time sqns gave before flipping the gogs down and using them in anger. Something to do with the carrots and cones but, suffice to say, the RAF atleast were shooting around, using gogs without letting pilots eyes fully acclimatise.
Boffin went off to make some telephone calls because he thought we must have been mistaken - only to return after, I guess, having been told to get back in his box!
I understand technology has improved since early 90s but I know our eyes haven't.
Boffins stated 40mins min to acclimatise, sortie length 5 minutes.....bit of a problem there.
What's the latest wisdom?
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The goggles present an image that is bright enough to destroy regular night vision, therefore there is little darkness accomodation needed for goggles.
Anyone who thinks goggles are more dangerous than not having goggles is sadly mistaken. Those who think so are those who have a vested interest in the status quo, because their signature on an approval makes them responsible for actually doing their jobs - a civil agency has no panalty for failure to approve, so a NO earns no negative while a YES might actually come back to bite them.
Goggles are ALWAYS safer than not. While there is much to learn to use goggles well, there is little to learn without them, except the brace position, or how to sit in the ready room and play cards.
Anyone who thinks goggles are more dangerous than not having goggles is sadly mistaken. Those who think so are those who have a vested interest in the status quo, because their signature on an approval makes them responsible for actually doing their jobs - a civil agency has no panalty for failure to approve, so a NO earns no negative while a YES might actually come back to bite them.
Goggles are ALWAYS safer than not. While there is much to learn to use goggles well, there is little to learn without them, except the brace position, or how to sit in the ready room and play cards.
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Hard to argue with that Nick.
Its actually hard to believe we did multi-ship formation troop insertions without NVGs!
Imagine what the health & safety folk would say about that!
In the UK, these guys are very well sorted and experienced providers of NVG Instruction/Training www.highlandaero.co.uk
Its actually hard to believe we did multi-ship formation troop insertions without NVGs!
Imagine what the health & safety folk would say about that!
In the UK, these guys are very well sorted and experienced providers of NVG Instruction/Training www.highlandaero.co.uk
Petitfromage - if you are getting reflective glare like that in the video, you have not got a compatible lighting system. That glare looks like white light from unfiltered instruments and even filtered instruments should have dimmers fitted to reduce the light levels.
The backlight of a normal cellphone can be seen on goggles from miles away so a proper white light torch looks like a laser light show. A lot of casualties/lost walkers etc have been located on the hillside as they use their mobile phones to call for help.
As Nick says, NVG flying does not require the normal night adaptation required for 'mortal' night flight; we regularly go from NVG on approach to white light for winching and back to NVG for departure with no degradation of acuity save for 'brown eye' when reverting to white light after using goggles for a while.
The backlight of a normal cellphone can be seen on goggles from miles away so a proper white light torch looks like a laser light show. A lot of casualties/lost walkers etc have been located on the hillside as they use their mobile phones to call for help.
As Nick says, NVG flying does not require the normal night adaptation required for 'mortal' night flight; we regularly go from NVG on approach to white light for winching and back to NVG for departure with no degradation of acuity save for 'brown eye' when reverting to white light after using goggles for a while.
Like I said, we didn't take any notice of the boffins, seemed to work ok with us! We did wonder why all the sudden interest as the incident that sparked it off had nought to do with acuity!
My only problem with gogs is the fatigue effect they have upon your eyes, from having two tv tubes so close.
My only problem with gogs is the fatigue effect they have upon your eyes, from having two tv tubes so close.
Hi SASsy, hope all is well with you?
That demo is superb and has gone straight onto my powerpoint presentation. We are joining the queue to get the cab converted and should be number 3 or 4 in the UK police fraternity to get it done. Numero Uno are feeding back superb results.
As I said before, now that there is fresh blood in the CAA things are moving along at a much more acceptable pace.
7 years was a long time to fight for these but we got there in the end.
Our "passengers" in that time have worn out 3 pairs of goggles!!!!
That demo is superb and has gone straight onto my powerpoint presentation. We are joining the queue to get the cab converted and should be number 3 or 4 in the UK police fraternity to get it done. Numero Uno are feeding back superb results.
As I said before, now that there is fresh blood in the CAA things are moving along at a much more acceptable pace.
7 years was a long time to fight for these but we got there in the end.
Our "passengers" in that time have worn out 3 pairs of goggles!!!!
