Instrument Rating to be simplified?
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Originally Posted by Woolf
fishboy:
There is no CAA requirement for two engines at all. You can sign up for a course tomorrow (if you have the spare cash). Only catch is that once you have your single engine IR ticket you are not allowed to fly in IMC with a single engined helicopter in the UK.
There is no CAA requirement for two engines at all. You can sign up for a course tomorrow (if you have the spare cash). Only catch is that once you have your single engine IR ticket you are not allowed to fly in IMC with a single engined helicopter in the UK.
Hmmm, so maybe I AM missing something. I apologise. Does that mean you can go get an instrument rating in a single Squirrel (Not IFR rated)? It would have all the capability to fly approaches and holds etc. but no autopilot and no backup systems. It would be totally VFR flying, whilst simulating IFR.
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fishboy,
er no, only on that particular bristows jetranger, it is stabilised and can fly in real IMC, although not to the same limits as a twin, i.e higher decision height I think
regards
CF
Does that mean you can go get an instrument rating in a single Squirrel (Not IFR rated)?
regards
CF
CF:
You are qute right, I was only talking about the (in the UK useless) single-engine IR.
Fishboy:
As CF has pointed out there is only one helicopter in the UK with this clearance. There are however a few other operators in Europe that offer similar single-engine IR packages. Unless you have money coming out of your ears there is not much point doing a single-engine IR unless you plan to upgrade it to a twin later.
You are qute right, I was only talking about the (in the UK useless) single-engine IR.
Fishboy:
As CF has pointed out there is only one helicopter in the UK with this clearance. There are however a few other operators in Europe that offer similar single-engine IR packages. Unless you have money coming out of your ears there is not much point doing a single-engine IR unless you plan to upgrade it to a twin later.
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Thanks CF.
I thought that was the case. I'm curious as to WHY...
I originally did my Instrument rating in the USA, (on a schweizer 300).
Everyone knows you are not going to fly IFR in a 300 but you can effectively simulate ALL of the requirements for an instrument rating in that type of aircraft. I can assure you, it is FAR more difficult to fly that kind of aircraft with no auto systems whatsoever, than a fully coupled Puma for example. I know there are more systems etc on the Puma or any of the other IFR capable machines, but again, that comes down to "type rating".
If you were ever to fly actual IFR, your employer would then be putting you through a type rating and NOT an instrument rating.
And I'm boring myself now so that's enough for me
I thought that was the case. I'm curious as to WHY...
I originally did my Instrument rating in the USA, (on a schweizer 300).
Everyone knows you are not going to fly IFR in a 300 but you can effectively simulate ALL of the requirements for an instrument rating in that type of aircraft. I can assure you, it is FAR more difficult to fly that kind of aircraft with no auto systems whatsoever, than a fully coupled Puma for example. I know there are more systems etc on the Puma or any of the other IFR capable machines, but again, that comes down to "type rating".If you were ever to fly actual IFR, your employer would then be putting you through a type rating and NOT an instrument rating.
And I'm boring myself now so that's enough for me
fishboy:
I totally agree, flying an unstabelized aircarft in IMC is harder. However training in those aircraft is not done in IMC. Also in a Puma you will actually plan to fly IMC on a daily basis and not just use it as a get out clause.
I can assure you, it is FAR more difficult to fly that kind of aircraft with no auto systems whatsoever, than a fully coupled Puma for example
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fishboy,
well when I converted to the S76, the conversion course was scheduled for 12 or 13 hours total time, it most definitely was not just a VFR conversion, we spent more time on instruments, and at the end of it I did an LST + IR, as the IR is type specific.
i.e. you need to do IRT on every type you intend to fly IFR
regards
CF
If you were ever to fly actual IFR, your employer would then be putting you through a type rating and NOT an instrument rating.
i.e. you need to do IRT on every type you intend to fly IFR
regards
CF
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OK, last one.
I understand that flying a big twin, or whatever; you will be flying actual IMC on a regular basis, but an instrument rating shows that you have the required skills to fly on instruments. A type rating (along with an instrument rating) would show you have the required skills to fly on instruments, in that particular aircraft.
That is the case in the USA. Just because you have an instrument rating, does not mean to say you can fly ANY aircraft IFR, just that you can fly an appropriately equipped aircraft, that you are qualified to fly. If you are flying a VFR only aircraft, then, instrument rating or not, you WILL fly VFR.
That to me sounds like common sense, though I am fully aware that common sense does not go along with current CAA thinking.
I understand that flying a big twin, or whatever; you will be flying actual IMC on a regular basis, but an instrument rating shows that you have the required skills to fly on instruments. A type rating (along with an instrument rating) would show you have the required skills to fly on instruments, in that particular aircraft.
That is the case in the USA. Just because you have an instrument rating, does not mean to say you can fly ANY aircraft IFR, just that you can fly an appropriately equipped aircraft, that you are qualified to fly. If you are flying a VFR only aircraft, then, instrument rating or not, you WILL fly VFR.
That to me sounds like common sense, though I am fully aware that common sense does not go along with current CAA thinking.
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fishboy,
lets say I got my IR in a Robbie (if that was possible here), and then I did a VFR conversion to lets say an EC135,
you sound like you are saying that you should be able to fly it IFR because you have demonstrated that you can fly a robbie IFR and that you can fly the EC135 VFR.
but that you think it is excessive to demonstrate that you can actually fly IFR in the EC135.
if that is what you are saying I would disagree.
regards
CF
lets say I got my IR in a Robbie (if that was possible here), and then I did a VFR conversion to lets say an EC135,
you sound like you are saying that you should be able to fly it IFR because you have demonstrated that you can fly a robbie IFR and that you can fly the EC135 VFR.
but that you think it is excessive to demonstrate that you can actually fly IFR in the EC135.
if that is what you are saying I would disagree.
regards
CF
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Originally Posted by Camp Freddie
fishboy,
well when I converted to the S76, the conversion course was scheduled for 12 or 13 hours total time, it most definitely was not just a VFR conversion, we spent more time on instruments, and at the end of it I did an LST + IR, as the IR is type specific.
i.e. you need to do IRT on every type you intend to fly IFR
regards
CF
well when I converted to the S76, the conversion course was scheduled for 12 or 13 hours total time, it most definitely was not just a VFR conversion, we spent more time on instruments, and at the end of it I did an LST + IR, as the IR is type specific.
i.e. you need to do IRT on every type you intend to fly IFR
regards
CF
All I'm saying is that you were not taught HOW to fly on instruments, I'm sure that it was a given that you could already do that. I would like to place a bet that anyone who has the required skills to fly IFR,(never having set foot in a twin) would be able to fly a twin under IFR, given the training in that particular aircraft.
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I totally agree that you should have to pass an Instrument test in any aircraft that you fly.
My only point is that the original training does not need to be accomplished in a twin, IFR rated aircraft. You can learn to fly on instruments in any aircraft.
My only point is that the original training does not need to be accomplished in a twin, IFR rated aircraft. You can learn to fly on instruments in any aircraft.
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fishboy,
I would agree with that, but all those CAA instrument rating examiners dont like flying around in robbies 
regards
CF
My only point is that the original training does not need to be accomplished in a twin, IFR rated aircraft. You can learn to fly on instruments in any aircraft.
regards
CF
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In Australia theres a bloke in Victoria that can train you in his FRASCA for 20 hours. A good portion of the remaining 20 hours could be done in an R22 or H300 with the flight test done in a genuine IFR Longranger. I think there is still a requiremnent to do the test under the IFR in an IFR machine.
Theres a 206 and a 206L in Australia that are genuine IFR machines. This effectively limits you single engine IFR command but opens up the first officer world... all one needs is a type rating to act as a FO on any machine!
Surely a similar system would be perfectly adequete for the European requirements and make the IFR route a bit more accessible... not to mention lifting the game of the industry. If the test or perhaps the last 5 hours had to be done in a genuine IFR machine... albeit single engine... at least that would solve exposure to 'real' IMC conditions.
Only trouble is the machinery. Off the top of my head there is the one machine in the UK, two in Australia as mentioned. Theres a private AS350 B3 in New Zealand... perhaps thats where it would need to start... convincing the authorities that there are a few new types that would be suitable as single engine IFR... A119 springs to mind.
Theres a 206 and a 206L in Australia that are genuine IFR machines. This effectively limits you single engine IFR command but opens up the first officer world... all one needs is a type rating to act as a FO on any machine!
Surely a similar system would be perfectly adequete for the European requirements and make the IFR route a bit more accessible... not to mention lifting the game of the industry. If the test or perhaps the last 5 hours had to be done in a genuine IFR machine... albeit single engine... at least that would solve exposure to 'real' IMC conditions.
Only trouble is the machinery. Off the top of my head there is the one machine in the UK, two in Australia as mentioned. Theres a private AS350 B3 in New Zealand... perhaps thats where it would need to start... convincing the authorities that there are a few new types that would be suitable as single engine IFR... A119 springs to mind.
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Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.205 states as follows :
Page 72
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated helicopter.
Page 73
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated multi-engine helicopters .
Page 72
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated helicopter.
Page 73
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated multi-engine helicopters .
Don´t mix things up.
Appendix 1 to 2.205:
FLYING TRAINING
9 A SINGLE-engine IR(H) course shall...
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated helicopter.
10 A MULTI-engine IR(H) course shall... [ The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated multi-engine
helicopters.]
Two different courses, depends on which one you take...
Appendix 1 to 2.205:
FLYING TRAINING
9 A SINGLE-engine IR(H) course shall...
The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated helicopter.
10 A MULTI-engine IR(H) course shall... [ The instrument flight instruction shall include at least 10 hours in an IFR-certificated multi-engine
helicopters.]
Two different courses, depends on which one you take...
