What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?
21st, I've read enough, and had to make input into enough, public affairs releases to be mildly skeptical of any of their pronouncements at face value. That said, seems that the folks in that squadron got good service out of their Ospreys. 'Tis a good thing.
Sultan,
Let's be very clear about this.
I know "Combat" having dwelled in the middle of a two way machine gun range for the best part of two years, the difference between "sortie count/mission count from multiple sources, and can differeniate between accurate data and improperly reported statistics having studied Statistics during my part of my University stay.
The USMC Press Release was misleading in the numbers reported.....which is what I pointed out by my post.
Let's be very clear about this.
I know "Combat" having dwelled in the middle of a two way machine gun range for the best part of two years, the difference between "sortie count/mission count from multiple sources, and can differeniate between accurate data and improperly reported statistics having studied Statistics during my part of my University stay.
The USMC Press Release was misleading in the numbers reported.....which is what I pointed out by my post.
Last edited by SASless; 23rd Jul 2011 at 00:11.
21st....or the numbers of missions includes multiple aircraft taskings on the same mission (which would then be sorties) or as stats can be manipulated....multiple stop flights where folks drop off and some are picked up....when the aircraft load is counted towards Pax carried and Cargo carried for a daily Sum....the numbers can grow exponentially. I have seen that game played at several places both military and civilian.
Example.....a Bell 212 with an eleven pax seating arrangement departs from the home heliport with eleven passengers aboard....arrives back at the heliport after making five stops and the load sheet shows Sixty-Six passengers carried. Yet only Twenty-Two humans ever rode as passengers.
Example.....a Bell 212 with an eleven pax seating arrangement departs from the home heliport with eleven passengers aboard....arrives back at the heliport after making five stops and the load sheet shows Sixty-Six passengers carried. Yet only Twenty-Two humans ever rode as passengers.
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Sas,
I have no doubt your experience is not unique and purposeful attempts to deceive or stretch the truth are certainly out there. I have to say that my experience with the intent of those conducting passenger/cargo counts have always been done 'by the numbers' (showing how many pax on each leg and not giving a false 'total count' at the end of the flight), but occasionally anomalies arise.
When we look at numbers that don't match up we don’t automatically declare fraud, as more often than not there is a legitimate explanation behind it. Having said that, if there is evidence that shows numbers are being purposely falsified there should be no hesitation to expose it (military or civilian).
21stC
I have no doubt your experience is not unique and purposeful attempts to deceive or stretch the truth are certainly out there. I have to say that my experience with the intent of those conducting passenger/cargo counts have always been done 'by the numbers' (showing how many pax on each leg and not giving a false 'total count' at the end of the flight), but occasionally anomalies arise.
When we look at numbers that don't match up we don’t automatically declare fraud, as more often than not there is a legitimate explanation behind it. Having said that, if there is evidence that shows numbers are being purposely falsified there should be no hesitation to expose it (military or civilian).
21stC
Just suggesting it is not the statistic given.....but the method the data was built within.
The example I gave is an example.
Sortie count for pax carried would be 66....Mission count 22.
I did not accuse the Marines of cooking the books....but note the numbers given are not worth a darn until one knows the method used to do the accounting.
The FBI's infamous National Crime Report is yet another example of garbage statistics....once you understand the methodology used to frame their stats.
A good local Police Chief can use those very methods to make his department look good (if he is wanting to keep his job) or justify more Officers and resources (if he wants to build up the force) just by applying varying rules of defining crimes.
The classic example (drawn from real life first hand) regarded reporting of Break-In's. Under one Chief we reported pretty much what actually happened, under another the Thief could get inside the house but not steal anything of value and it was only a Damage To Property....and with a third if the window pane was broken and no entry was made.....it was a Burglary. In other words the same crime could be a Misdeameanor or a Felony but only the Felony Crime made it to the NCR Database.
They also report only the most serious crime committed in one event....Drug deal goes bad, Buyer shoots dead the Dealer, rapes the dealer's daughter, robs the Buyer's wife, sets fire to the house and steals a car and kidnaps the driver, runs over a Police Officer, and holds a school bus full of children hostage....then surrenders......One Crime...Murder gets reported for stats use.
The example I gave is an example.
Sortie count for pax carried would be 66....Mission count 22.
I did not accuse the Marines of cooking the books....but note the numbers given are not worth a darn until one knows the method used to do the accounting.
The FBI's infamous National Crime Report is yet another example of garbage statistics....once you understand the methodology used to frame their stats.
A good local Police Chief can use those very methods to make his department look good (if he is wanting to keep his job) or justify more Officers and resources (if he wants to build up the force) just by applying varying rules of defining crimes.
The classic example (drawn from real life first hand) regarded reporting of Break-In's. Under one Chief we reported pretty much what actually happened, under another the Thief could get inside the house but not steal anything of value and it was only a Damage To Property....and with a third if the window pane was broken and no entry was made.....it was a Burglary. In other words the same crime could be a Misdeameanor or a Felony but only the Felony Crime made it to the NCR Database.
They also report only the most serious crime committed in one event....Drug deal goes bad, Buyer shoots dead the Dealer, rapes the dealer's daughter, robs the Buyer's wife, sets fire to the house and steals a car and kidnaps the driver, runs over a Police Officer, and holds a school bus full of children hostage....then surrenders......One Crime...Murder gets reported for stats use.
Im still completely confused as to how the numbers are misleading or even considered implausible.....with the only reason to doubt them the fact that the stated number of combat missions doesnt correlate with the given payload numbers.
Where was it implied that one had anything to do with the other?
Where was it implied that one had anything to do with the other?
the only reason to doubt them the fact that the stated number of combat missions doesnt correlate with the given payload numbers.
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RIP
Marines in Afghanistan Honor Fallen Crew Chief
July 18, 2011 Marine Corps News | Cpl. Samantha H. Arrington
CAMP LEATHERNECK, Afghanistan -- Deployed Marines and Sailors gathered at the Regional Command Southwest Memorial Chapel on Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan, to honor the life of Staff Sgt. Thomas J. Dudley, July 18.
Dudley fell to his death from an MV-22 Osprey while conducting combat operations in southwestern Afghanistan, July 7.
“We will we commemorate his life and not his death,” said Sgt. Maj. George P. Aurelio, the Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 264 sergeant major. “We’re gathering to remember him for who he was, which was a great father, husband and Marine.”
Dudley, a native of Tega Cay, S.C., is survived by his wife, Mary, and three children.
“He’ll be missed dearly but he will be with us forever,” said Gunnery Sgt. Shawn A. Howard, the quality assurance chief for VMM-264, and a native of Brooksville, Fla. “This was not just a loss for the squadron, his family and friends, but for the Marine Corps as a whole.”
Dudley served with VMM-264, as an MV-22 Osprey crew chief. He deployed with the squadron out of Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C., to Camp Bastion, Afghanistan, in December 2010.
“He was a great man, he was the kind of guy who would do anything to help someone,” said Cpl. William Alder, a fellow crew chief with VMM-264, and a native of Flintstone, Md. “He will always be with us. He taught and led all of us and because of that he will live on with us.”
http://m.military.com/news/article/marine-corps-news/marines-in-afghanistan-honor-fallen-crew-chief.html?ESRC=marine.nl
July 18, 2011 Marine Corps News | Cpl. Samantha H. Arrington
CAMP LEATHERNECK, Afghanistan -- Deployed Marines and Sailors gathered at the Regional Command Southwest Memorial Chapel on Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan, to honor the life of Staff Sgt. Thomas J. Dudley, July 18.
Dudley fell to his death from an MV-22 Osprey while conducting combat operations in southwestern Afghanistan, July 7.
“We will we commemorate his life and not his death,” said Sgt. Maj. George P. Aurelio, the Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 264 sergeant major. “We’re gathering to remember him for who he was, which was a great father, husband and Marine.”
Dudley, a native of Tega Cay, S.C., is survived by his wife, Mary, and three children.
“He’ll be missed dearly but he will be with us forever,” said Gunnery Sgt. Shawn A. Howard, the quality assurance chief for VMM-264, and a native of Brooksville, Fla. “This was not just a loss for the squadron, his family and friends, but for the Marine Corps as a whole.”
Dudley served with VMM-264, as an MV-22 Osprey crew chief. He deployed with the squadron out of Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C., to Camp Bastion, Afghanistan, in December 2010.
“He was a great man, he was the kind of guy who would do anything to help someone,” said Cpl. William Alder, a fellow crew chief with VMM-264, and a native of Flintstone, Md. “He will always be with us. He taught and led all of us and because of that he will live on with us.”
http://m.military.com/news/article/marine-corps-news/marines-in-afghanistan-honor-fallen-crew-chief.html?ESRC=marine.nl
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SOF Looking for new vehicle — Jeep vs. Flyer
Read more: http://kitup.military.com/2011/07/so...#ixzz1TamJKlxP
Kit Up!
In the beginning, one of the stipulations around this project was that the vehicle be compatible with the VTOL capable, V-22 Osprey. Finally, this requirement was given the chop in favor of seeking a platform specifically compatible with the MH-47 helicopter preferred by Army Special Operations teams.
Kit Up!
IAF ups pressure for V-22 buy
The Israeli air force (IAF) will increase the pressure on the country's ministry of defence to fund the purchase of Bell-Boeing V-22 tilt rotors, following a positive evaluation of the aircraft.
A delegation from the IAF, including pilots and technical experts, recently visited US Marine Corps sites in the United States, to inspect the USMC's MV-22B Ospreys.
Israeli sources said that feedback from the IAF was overwhelmingly positive.
The IAF now wants to include an initial order for "limited" numbers of the V-22 in the multi-year spending plan being prepared by the Israeli Defence Force.
That wish may not be granted, however, but as a contingency the IAF may use reserve budgets to fund the purchase.
Scott Donnelly, chief executive of Bell parent company Textron, recently suggested that up to 12 countries, including Israel, would end up purchasing the Osprey.
A delegation from the IAF, including pilots and technical experts, recently visited US Marine Corps sites in the United States, to inspect the USMC's MV-22B Ospreys.
Israeli sources said that feedback from the IAF was overwhelmingly positive.
The IAF now wants to include an initial order for "limited" numbers of the V-22 in the multi-year spending plan being prepared by the Israeli Defence Force.
That wish may not be granted, however, but as a contingency the IAF may use reserve budgets to fund the purchase.
Scott Donnelly, chief executive of Bell parent company Textron, recently suggested that up to 12 countries, including Israel, would end up purchasing the Osprey.
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All you wanted to know about Osama bin Laden's burial at sea
New details have emerged on how US navy SEALs gave Osama bin Laden a "blunt" sea burial to end his myth, after they killed the al-Qaeda chief during a raid in Pakistan's garrison town of Abbottabad.
The US navy SEALs planned disposal of Laden's body on the basis on a similar burial they carried out for Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, a top al-Qaeda leader in East Africa, in 2009.
But, US deputy national security advisor John Brennan did call up a former Saudi intelligence official, asking him whether the country was interested in taking the body of Laden as his relatives were there and once he was a citizen of Saudi Arabia. However, there was no positive response from the other side," The New Yorker magazine reported.
"All along, the SEALs had planned to dump Laden's corpse into the sea — a blunt way of ending the Laden myth," it said.
Nabhan's corpse was flown to a ship in the Indian Ocean and was given proper Muslim rites before being thrown overboard.
In the case of Laden's corpse, flip-wing V-22 Osprey flew the body from a US base in Afghanistan's Bagram to USS Carl Vinson—a thousand-foot-long nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sailing in the Arabian Sea, off the Pakistani coast --in another violation of Islamabad's airspace.
Once the body reached Carl Vinson, it was washed, wrapped in a white burial shroud, weighted, and then slipped inside a bag.
The process was done "in strict conformance with Islamic precepts and practices," Brennan later told reporters in Washington.
The shrouded body was placed "on an open-air elevator, and rode down with it to the lower level, which functions as a hangar for airplanes. From a height of between twenty and twenty-five feet above the waves, they heaved the corpse into the water," the magazine said.
Earlier Jalalabad where the corpse was brought, a pair of SEALs unloaded the body bag and unzipped it so that man in charge of the mission Vice Adm William H McRaven and the CIA station chief could see bin Laden’s corpse with their own eyes. Photographs were taken of Laden’s face and then of his outstretched body.
Laden, 54, was believed to be about six feet four, "but no one had a tape measure to confirm the body’s length. So one SEAL, who was six feet tall, lay beside the corpse: it measured roughly four inches longer than the American," it said.
Minutes later, McRaven appeared on the teleconference screen in the Situation Room in the White House and confirmed that Laden's body was in the bag. The corpse was sent to Bagram.
Monday, August 1, 2011 21:51 IST
New details have emerged on how US navy SEALs gave Osama bin Laden a "blunt" sea burial to end his myth, after they killed the al-Qaeda chief during a raid in Pakistan's garrison town of Abbottabad.
The US navy SEALs planned disposal of Laden's body on the basis on a similar burial they carried out for Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, a top al-Qaeda leader in East Africa, in 2009.
But, US deputy national security advisor John Brennan did call up a former Saudi intelligence official, asking him whether the country was interested in taking the body of Laden as his relatives were there and once he was a citizen of Saudi Arabia. However, there was no positive response from the other side," The New Yorker magazine reported.
"All along, the SEALs had planned to dump Laden's corpse into the sea — a blunt way of ending the Laden myth," it said.
Nabhan's corpse was flown to a ship in the Indian Ocean and was given proper Muslim rites before being thrown overboard.
In the case of Laden's corpse, flip-wing V-22 Osprey flew the body from a US base in Afghanistan's Bagram to USS Carl Vinson—a thousand-foot-long nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sailing in the Arabian Sea, off the Pakistani coast --in another violation of Islamabad's airspace.
Once the body reached Carl Vinson, it was washed, wrapped in a white burial shroud, weighted, and then slipped inside a bag.
The process was done "in strict conformance with Islamic precepts and practices," Brennan later told reporters in Washington.
The shrouded body was placed "on an open-air elevator, and rode down with it to the lower level, which functions as a hangar for airplanes. From a height of between twenty and twenty-five feet above the waves, they heaved the corpse into the water," the magazine said.
Earlier Jalalabad where the corpse was brought, a pair of SEALs unloaded the body bag and unzipped it so that man in charge of the mission Vice Adm William H McRaven and the CIA station chief could see bin Laden’s corpse with their own eyes. Photographs were taken of Laden’s face and then of his outstretched body.
Laden, 54, was believed to be about six feet four, "but no one had a tape measure to confirm the body’s length. So one SEAL, who was six feet tall, lay beside the corpse: it measured roughly four inches longer than the American," it said.
Minutes later, McRaven appeared on the teleconference screen in the Situation Room in the White House and confirmed that Laden's body was in the bag. The corpse was sent to Bagram.
In the case of Laden's corpse, flip-wing V-22 Osprey flew the body from a US base in Afghanistan's Bagram to USS Carl Vinson—a thousand-foot-long nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sailing in the Arabian Sea, off the Pakistani coast --in another violation of Islamabad's airspace
How is a US carrier operating off of the coast of Pakistan a violation of Islamabad airspace? Or, is the assertion that the flight did not have standard dip clearance to go from Afghanistan to feet wet?
Not sure our intrepid reporter has it right ... this is confusing.
Minutes later, McRaven appeared on the teleconference screen in the Situation Room in the White House and confirmed that Laden's body was in the bag. The corpse was sent to Bagram.
Someone needs to talk to his editor.
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How is a US carrier operating off of the coast of Pakistan a violation of Islamabad airspace? Or, is the assertion that the flight did not have standard dip clearance to go from Afghanistan to feet wet?
Not sure our intrepid reporter has it right ... this is confusing.
Not sure our intrepid reporter has it right ... this is confusing.
Keep in mind that Afghanistan is a land-locked country. The only alternatives to flying the body out would be through Pakistani airspace or to ask for the kind permission of the Iranian government.
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A more DETAILED version of the event. Wow!
The Mission to Get Osama Bin Laden : The New Yorker
DNA: World - Americans breached Pak airspace not once, but twice in Osama raid
The Mission to Get Osama Bin Laden : The New Yorker
Americans breached Pak airspace not once, but twice in Osama raid
Wednesday, August 3, 2011 14:53 IST
It seems Pakistani military was caught off guard not once but twice by the Americans who not only breached its airspace during the May 2 raid to kill Osama bin Laden but also flew in back from Afghanistan hours later with the body of the al-Qaeda leader on way to his sea burial.
At dawn on May 2, Laden's body was loaded into the belly of a flip-wing V-22 Osprey chopper in Afghanistan, accompanied by a Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) liaison officer and a security detail of military police, the New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue detailing finer aspects of the entire operation.
The Osprey flew south, destined for the deck of the USS Carl Vinson, a 1,000-foot-long nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sailing in the Arabian Sea, off the Pakistani coast for the sea burial of the slain al-Qaeda chief.
"The Americans, yet again, were about to traverse Pakistani airspace without permission. Some officials worried that the Pakistanis, stung by the humiliation of the unilateral raid in Abbottabad, might restrict the Osprey's access. The airplane ultimately landed on the Vinson without incident," the report said.
Interestingly, the report said the Abbottabad raid was not DEVGRU's (Naval Special Warfare Development Group that killed Laden) maiden venture into Pakistan.
"The team had surreptitiously entered the country on ten to twelve previous occasions," a special-operations officer, who is deeply familiar with the Laden raid, was quoted as saying.
Most of those missions were forays into North and South Waziristan, where many military and intelligence analysts had thought that Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders were hiding.
Wednesday, August 3, 2011 14:53 IST
It seems Pakistani military was caught off guard not once but twice by the Americans who not only breached its airspace during the May 2 raid to kill Osama bin Laden but also flew in back from Afghanistan hours later with the body of the al-Qaeda leader on way to his sea burial.
At dawn on May 2, Laden's body was loaded into the belly of a flip-wing V-22 Osprey chopper in Afghanistan, accompanied by a Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) liaison officer and a security detail of military police, the New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue detailing finer aspects of the entire operation.
The Osprey flew south, destined for the deck of the USS Carl Vinson, a 1,000-foot-long nuclear-powered aircraft carrier sailing in the Arabian Sea, off the Pakistani coast for the sea burial of the slain al-Qaeda chief.
"The Americans, yet again, were about to traverse Pakistani airspace without permission. Some officials worried that the Pakistanis, stung by the humiliation of the unilateral raid in Abbottabad, might restrict the Osprey's access. The airplane ultimately landed on the Vinson without incident," the report said.
Interestingly, the report said the Abbottabad raid was not DEVGRU's (Naval Special Warfare Development Group that killed Laden) maiden venture into Pakistan.
"The team had surreptitiously entered the country on ten to twelve previous occasions," a special-operations officer, who is deeply familiar with the Laden raid, was quoted as saying.
Most of those missions were forays into North and South Waziristan, where many military and intelligence analysts had thought that Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders were hiding.
I am fully aware of that, 21st century. Suffice to say, I am more than passing familiar with the lay of the land out there, and the littoral, and the problems of Afghanistan being bloody well landlocked. 
Hell of a place for America to run a war.
Did you read my post?
Are you a military pilot? Do you not remember the fun of getting diplomatic clearance for flights over various nations' airspaces?
The presumption of an airspace violation (as opposed to one of many routine flights through Pakistani airspace (yes, we do have agreements with them)) seems to me a leap of inference by our intrepid reporter. Now, if we have in our agreements with them some language that we'll not transport dead terrorists without providing a passenger manifest, or if the flight can be shown to not have been on the air tasking order, with copy to USDAO and with appropriate bits releasable to his Pakistani MoD contacts** and more, then perhaps our intrepid reporter can show that this flight was done on the sly.
All he has done is made a claim, and I am skeptical of his supporting sources.
(Mind you, he may be right)
No further comment.
I was being a bit facetious, eh? Tone sometimes doesn't come across well on the internet.
** = yes, such things are done, no kidding. There was a time in my life not too long ago that I had to deconflict various and sundry stuff with the among the MoD in that country through USDAO, about some those useless 's ... I better stop. Got no love for some of the lads who serve our "ally" there. 
Hell of a place for America to run a war. Did you read my post?
How is a US carrier operating off of the coast of Pakistan a violation of Islamabad airspace? Or, is the assertion that the flight did not have standard dip clearance to go from Afghanistan to feet wet?
The presumption of an airspace violation (as opposed to one of many routine flights through Pakistani airspace (yes, we do have agreements with them)) seems to me a leap of inference by our intrepid reporter. Now, if we have in our agreements with them some language that we'll not transport dead terrorists without providing a passenger manifest, or if the flight can be shown to not have been on the air tasking order, with copy to USDAO and with appropriate bits releasable to his Pakistani MoD contacts** and more, then perhaps our intrepid reporter can show that this flight was done on the sly.
All he has done is made a claim, and I am skeptical of his supporting sources.
(Mind you, he may be right)
No further comment.
I was being a bit facetious, eh? Tone sometimes doesn't come across well on the internet.
** = yes, such things are done, no kidding. There was a time in my life not too long ago that I had to deconflict various and sundry stuff with the
among the MoD in that country through USDAO, about some those useless 's ... I better stop. Got no love for some of the lads who serve our "ally" there.
LW......actually they were probably just hauling "Baggage" that required some "Special" handling!
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LW,
Glad my geography lesson was able to help you out there.
Did you read your post?
In Pakistan there is no longer any such thing as a "standard clearance." Even before the bin Laden operation each clearance must be painstakingly secured despite the billions of dollars that we have been contributing to their government (windows did open up temporarily for the humanitarian efforts after the earthquake and floods in recent years). The Pakistan military does not trust the US military (and vice versa!). I guess our uninvited Predator visits don't help much either.
Even if there had been a standing clearance it is pretty obvious that after the public humiliation of the violation of their airspace the night before, any clearance would have been immediately rescinded. As you know from your experience -- mitigating potential 'loss of face' situations is the one item that is on the top of the list for an immediate action response above all others.
If you click on the first link of my last post you will see that the original author of the article was Nicholas Schmidle reporting for 'The New Yorker.' He mentions in the full article (9 pages long in the magazine) the names of who he spoke to in the CIA and military. He has some incredibly detailed descriptions about things like which Seal did what, the type of weapons each individual carried, what they encountered along the way, etc (even down to the name of the dog!). So far the only denial coming from the US government about the article is the assertion that the Seals had no intention to take bin Laden alive.
Like you I cannot say how accurate the reporting is, particularly with the experience that all of us have had with reporters in the past -- sometimes it seems like journalists must take a course in 'how to inaccurately report the facts.' But given the direct sources quoted in the article I'd say his reporting does appear to have some degree of credibility. 'The New Yorker' PR people are claiming that everything was verified, but then again Rupert Murdoch didn't think he had a problem in his organization (or so he says).
Glad my geography lesson was able to help you out there.
Did you read your post?
How is a US carrier operating off of the coast of Pakistan a violation of Islamabad airspace? Or, is the assertion that the flight did not have standard dip clearance to go from Afghanistan to feet wet?
Not sure our intrepid reporter has it right ... this is confusing.
Not sure our intrepid reporter has it right ... this is confusing.
Even if there had been a standing clearance it is pretty obvious that after the public humiliation of the violation of their airspace the night before, any clearance would have been immediately rescinded. As you know from your experience -- mitigating potential 'loss of face' situations is the one item that is on the top of the list for an immediate action response above all others.
...then perhaps our intrepid reporter can show that this flight was done on the sly. All he has done is made a claim, and I am skeptical of his supporting sources.
Like you I cannot say how accurate the reporting is, particularly with the experience that all of us have had with reporters in the past -- sometimes it seems like journalists must take a course in 'how to inaccurately report the facts.' But given the direct sources quoted in the article I'd say his reporting does appear to have some degree of credibility. 'The New Yorker' PR people are claiming that everything was verified, but then again Rupert Murdoch didn't think he had a problem in his organization (or so he says).
Last edited by 21stCen; 4th Aug 2011 at 18:52.