What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?
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Re: V22 Osprey
Nick,
I agree the V-22 is a giant vortex ring for sucking up money. The U.S. gov has put in 12 billion and since the gov is probably the only customer the true cost need to apportion the development cost into each unit. That would be staggering.
But that is how the U.S. does things. The design should have been put out to bid for several companies to compete. And they should have started small first in my opinion.
slowrotor
I agree the V-22 is a giant vortex ring for sucking up money. The U.S. gov has put in 12 billion and since the gov is probably the only customer the true cost need to apportion the development cost into each unit. That would be staggering.
But that is how the U.S. does things. The design should have been put out to bid for several companies to compete. And they should have started small first in my opinion.
slowrotor
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Re: V22 Osprey
You better head for the bunker, grab yer Kevlar underwear.....sully the "Concorde"? Yikes...."Incoming!"
My concern is that technically the V-22 is not the best approach for it's mission requirements.
Also, the (X-2) cruise fuel flow at 240-ish would be higher than a tilt rotor because the rotor is just not as efficient as a wing at high speed.
Mart
Last edited by Graviman; 14th Jan 2006 at 18:16.
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Re: V22 Osprey
Matthew,
Yaw response in the ABC was reasonable, a little slower than a tail rotor aircraft, more in keeping with a NOTAR feel. Yaw is achieved by differential torque, so the feel is not as fully crisp as a tail rotor, but every bit as good at what I have read about NOTAR and tiltrotors.
Yaw response in the ABC was reasonable, a little slower than a tail rotor aircraft, more in keeping with a NOTAR feel. Yaw is achieved by differential torque, so the feel is not as fully crisp as a tail rotor, but every bit as good at what I have read about NOTAR and tiltrotors.
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Re: V22 Osprey
I/C,
When I say compete, I mean really compete, with each company building a flying prototype that is fully tested and funded by the company. With five different designs to choose from the government would get a design with true cost for value. It is the government bidding process that is to blame for billions in cost overruns. There should not be just one design under development. The procurement should be divided among several companies to create an incentive to improve.
I think some type of tiltprop design is the future. But the V-22 has muddied the water for future development. That's the sad part. In other words, I think the direct lift airplane is something that needs to be invented. The V-22 needs some competition with some new and better ideas and configurations that make better economic sense. Maybe this will come from private business.
When I say compete, I mean really compete, with each company building a flying prototype that is fully tested and funded by the company. With five different designs to choose from the government would get a design with true cost for value. It is the government bidding process that is to blame for billions in cost overruns. There should not be just one design under development. The procurement should be divided among several companies to create an incentive to improve.
I think some type of tiltprop design is the future. But the V-22 has muddied the water for future development. That's the sad part. In other words, I think the direct lift airplane is something that needs to be invented. The V-22 needs some competition with some new and better ideas and configurations that make better economic sense. Maybe this will come from private business.
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Re: V22 Osprey
Nick, Matthew has this one.
The military may not know the future usage and life of its vehicles, but commercial companies have to consider the estimated usage when doing cost accounting.
The military may not know the future usage and life of its vehicles, but commercial companies have to consider the estimated usage when doing cost accounting.
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 15th Jan 2006 at 04:58.
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Re the Osprey
I was based at Farnborough when the the first version of the osprey was delivered to carry out flight tests before the airshow. When you consider that was within 5 years of the end of the vietnam war and consider the time it takes for an aircraft to get off the drawing board to that stage. It is no wonder that the aircraft was developed with vietnam era or even earlier vehicles in mind.
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What do you think about this aproach?
What about flying in turbulent air whith the rotor unloaded?
What about flying in turbulent air whith the rotor unloaded?
Funding may block X-49 progress
Piasecki Aircraft has completed ground vibration testing of its X-49A compound helicopter demonstrator, but uncertainty over funding is threatening plans to flight test the modified Sikorsky YSH-60F by early 2007.
X-49
The Seahawk prototype has been fitted with a wing and Piasecki’s vectored thrust ducted propeller (VDTP), which replaces the tailrotor and provides both anti-torque control and forward thrust. The “ring tail” VTDP includes elevator and rudder control surfaces, as well as a deployable visor that vectors propeller thrust to counter torque and provide yaw control in vertical and low-speed flight.
The modification is expected to boost the helicopter’s maximum speed from 150kt (280km/h) to 200kt, says director programme requirements Joe Cosgrove. Transferring lift to the wing as forward speed increases allows the rotor to be unloaded, avoiding retreating-blade stall.
The YSH-60F’s tailrotor driveshaft has been replaced by a strengthened shaft capable of delivering 2,100shp (1,560kW) to the ducted propeller, Cosgrove says. At high forward speed this is the majority of the power generated by the helicopter’s two General Electric T700-701Cs. A production VTDP would draw 2,700shp, he says.
To overcome concerns about the impact on empty weight and hover payload of the VTDP, Piasecki is proposing to replace the helicopter’s auxiliary power unit with a supplementary power unit based on the Rolls-Royce T703 turboshaft. This would provide an additional 650shp in the hover, and would idle in the cruise, says Cosgrove.
Essington, Pennsylvania-based Piasecki is now installing instrumentation on the X-49A, and plans to begin ground testing by mid-year, but flight testing depends on Congress adding money to the US Army’s budget. “We need $8.8 million to get to flight test, but don’t know what we will get in [fiscal year] 2006,” says Cosgrove.
Originally a US Navy programme, but transferred to the US Army in 2004, the X-49A technology demonstration has survived on Congressional “plus-ups”. The House voted $5 million for this year, but the FY2006 US defence budget has yet to be agreed by Congress.
“Five million dollars is short of the stated requirement,” says Cosgrove, who believes “some service money” could be found to fly the X-49A early in 2007.
GRAHAM WARWICK/WASHINGTON DC
Piasecki Aircraft has completed ground vibration testing of its X-49A compound helicopter demonstrator, but uncertainty over funding is threatening plans to flight test the modified Sikorsky YSH-60F by early 2007.
X-49
The Seahawk prototype has been fitted with a wing and Piasecki’s vectored thrust ducted propeller (VDTP), which replaces the tailrotor and provides both anti-torque control and forward thrust. The “ring tail” VTDP includes elevator and rudder control surfaces, as well as a deployable visor that vectors propeller thrust to counter torque and provide yaw control in vertical and low-speed flight.
The modification is expected to boost the helicopter’s maximum speed from 150kt (280km/h) to 200kt, says director programme requirements Joe Cosgrove. Transferring lift to the wing as forward speed increases allows the rotor to be unloaded, avoiding retreating-blade stall.
The YSH-60F’s tailrotor driveshaft has been replaced by a strengthened shaft capable of delivering 2,100shp (1,560kW) to the ducted propeller, Cosgrove says. At high forward speed this is the majority of the power generated by the helicopter’s two General Electric T700-701Cs. A production VTDP would draw 2,700shp, he says.
To overcome concerns about the impact on empty weight and hover payload of the VTDP, Piasecki is proposing to replace the helicopter’s auxiliary power unit with a supplementary power unit based on the Rolls-Royce T703 turboshaft. This would provide an additional 650shp in the hover, and would idle in the cruise, says Cosgrove.
Essington, Pennsylvania-based Piasecki is now installing instrumentation on the X-49A, and plans to begin ground testing by mid-year, but flight testing depends on Congress adding money to the US Army’s budget. “We need $8.8 million to get to flight test, but don’t know what we will get in [fiscal year] 2006,” says Cosgrove.
Originally a US Navy programme, but transferred to the US Army in 2004, the X-49A technology demonstration has survived on Congressional “plus-ups”. The House voted $5 million for this year, but the FY2006 US defence budget has yet to be agreed by Congress.
“Five million dollars is short of the stated requirement,” says Cosgrove, who believes “some service money” could be found to fly the X-49A early in 2007.
GRAHAM WARWICK/WASHINGTON DC
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Israel considers V-22 acquisition
By Alon Ben-David JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv
The Israel Air Force (IAF) is seriously considering procurement of Bell/ Boeing V-22 Osprey multimission tiltrotor aircraft, defence sources have told JDW.
The IAF is preparing to issue a request for information in the coming months and is sending its Chief of Air Directorate for Helicopters, Brigadier General 'Tamir', to fly the aircraft in the US.
Offering a range greater than 1,000 km and a speed of 275 kt - much faster than most helicopters - the V-22 is being considered by the IAF for special forces missions as well as search and rescue. "It could provide new dimensions to IAF capabilities, especially now that Israel is facing a distant developing threat from Iran," an industry source told JDW. "With the V-22's air-to-air refuelling capability, the range could even be further extended, providing the IAF with new deterrent capabilities."
However, its unit cost, estimated at USD70 million, might impede such a procurement. "The Osprey is indeed an expensive platform, but it could relieve the IAF from the need to upgrade all of its Hercules and Sea Stallion fleet and [allow it to] decommission some of them," said the industry source.
By Alon Ben-David JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv
The Israel Air Force (IAF) is seriously considering procurement of Bell/ Boeing V-22 Osprey multimission tiltrotor aircraft, defence sources have told JDW.
The IAF is preparing to issue a request for information in the coming months and is sending its Chief of Air Directorate for Helicopters, Brigadier General 'Tamir', to fly the aircraft in the US.
Offering a range greater than 1,000 km and a speed of 275 kt - much faster than most helicopters - the V-22 is being considered by the IAF for special forces missions as well as search and rescue. "It could provide new dimensions to IAF capabilities, especially now that Israel is facing a distant developing threat from Iran," an industry source told JDW. "With the V-22's air-to-air refuelling capability, the range could even be further extended, providing the IAF with new deterrent capabilities."
However, its unit cost, estimated at USD70 million, might impede such a procurement. "The Osprey is indeed an expensive platform, but it could relieve the IAF from the need to upgrade all of its Hercules and Sea Stallion fleet and [allow it to] decommission some of them," said the industry source.
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What do you think about this aproach?
Pusher props make sense, since they present the minimum aero profile for the rotor hub. The size can also be optimised in terms of minimum parasitic drag.
What about flying in turbulent air whith the rotor unloaded?
Worth bearing in mind that the controls will never be as easy as a fixed wing, since pilot is still flying a helicopter control system. Ailerons and elevators effectively control roll/pitch velocity, while rotor systems control pitch/roll acceleration (or more accurately torque, but for small inputs it's effectively acceleration).
Mart
Last edited by Graviman; 27th Jan 2006 at 17:19.
What happened to the Eagle Eye's neat blended empennage ?
More shortcomings of the V22 Osprey
http://www.newsobserver.com/689/story/386297.html
Lengthy article discusses shortcomings of V22 as a Marine Assault Support aircraft. Notes two aircraft are required to carry the same load a CH-46 can for the same distance. Definitely worth reading if you are not a US Taxpayer.
Lengthy article discusses shortcomings of V22 as a Marine Assault Support aircraft. Notes two aircraft are required to carry the same load a CH-46 can for the same distance. Definitely worth reading if you are not a US Taxpayer.
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Did it not say half load of H53 not the h-46 , still interesting comparison though. Why don't they give each marine one of them strap on jet packs instead.
The Growler was chosen because it fits into the Osprey's cabin. It will take two Ospreys to fly in one mortar with 30 rounds of ammunition and six Marines to operate the system. One Sea Stallion could handle the same load, though slower.
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“French, Retreat & V-22” synonymous?
I read that since the proposed chin-mounted gun is too pricey (& heavy), V-22s will go into combat with a ramp-mounted 50 cal machine gun since: “…it could provide at least some suppressive fire during the retreat.”
Due to the V-22’s restrictive cabin size, marines were forced to procure a French mortar towed behind an unarmored jeep that can’t leave the protection of the base (IAW current US Force's rules in Iraq and Afghanistan). However, I’d be willing to bet that not unlike most of theV-22’s pre-production goals, that rule will be eroded or abolished altogether in the name of “positive V-22 propaganda” but paid for in marine blood (again).
What a slippery slope the marines have found the V-22 dragging them down!
Due to the V-22’s restrictive cabin size, marines were forced to procure a French mortar towed behind an unarmored jeep that can’t leave the protection of the base (IAW current US Force's rules in Iraq and Afghanistan). However, I’d be willing to bet that not unlike most of theV-22’s pre-production goals, that rule will be eroded or abolished altogether in the name of “positive V-22 propaganda” but paid for in marine blood (again).
What a slippery slope the marines have found the V-22 dragging them down!
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US Air Force welcomes arrival of first combat-configured CV-22 Osprey
Air Force leadership accepted the keys for the first combat-configured CV-22 Osprey from Bell Boeing March 1 in a ceremony at the Bell manufacturing facility in Amarillo, Texas.
While earlier versions of the CV-22 tiltrotor aircraft are in use as test assets, this is the first of the "Block B/10" aircraft, representing the configuration that the Air Force Special Operations Command will take into combat in 2009.
Senior DoD leaders taking part in the ceremony included Army Gen. Doug Brown, commander of U.S. Special Operations Command; Air Force Lt. Gen. John L. Hudson, commander of Aeronautical Systems Center; and Air Force Maj. Gen. Donald Wurster, vice commander of AFSOC. The man to receive the keys to the aircraft, however, was Air Force Lt. Col. Jim Cardoso, commanding officer of the 71st Special Operations Squadron, which will get this Osprey to support aircrew training at Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M.
The Air Force will purchase 50 CV-22s for long-range infiltration, exfiltration and re-supply of special operations forces in hostile or denied territory. The Osprey provides twice the speed, up to five times the range and significantly enhanced survivability over other conventional rotary wing platforms.
At the same time, it retains the operational flexibility of a helicopter, with the ability to take off and land vertically, and insert troops via "fast rope" capability onto rooftops or decks of ships.
"This aircraft is the single most significant transformation of Air Force Special Operations since the introduction of the helicopter," said Wurster. "Nearly every mission we have faced in the last 20 years could have been done better and faster with the V-22."
Wurster also spoke of the positive impact the aircraft would have on protecting troops in Afghanistan and Iraq today.
"Our ability to move point to point by air, over extended distances at high speed, would reduce our exposure to the roadside attacks" that are responsible for so many casualties, he said.
The CV-22 is about 85 percent common with the MV-22 Osprey that the Marine Corps will deploy with in 2007, but possesses a number of additional capabilities tailored to the demands of its unique mission.
A Multi-Mode Radar with terrain following/terrain avoidance modes allows aggressive, terrain-masking ingress routes to be flown safely under cover of darkness. The Suite of Integrated Radio-Frequency Countermeasures and the Directed Infrared Countermeasures systems detect and defeat radar-guided and heat-seeking missiles, respectively. The CV-22 also has additional internal fuel capacity and enhanced navigation systems, communications and avionics gear when compared to the MV-22.
"This gives us global reach," Brown said of the CV-22. "We can reach out and touch bad guys wherever they live around the world."
On Feb. 24, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld rode in the jump seat of an MV-22 Osprey on a short flight from Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C., to Camp Lejeune, N.C. The Defense Department approved full rate production of the Osprey in September 2005, following successful completion of an operational evaluation in which the Osprey demonstrated all the key performance parameters for the Marine Corps mission. Additional operational test will begin later this year for those systems and mission profiles unique to the CV-22.
Brown said his troops would like to have the aircraft in theater today. "I never go to visit them without getting the question, 'When are we going to get the CV-22?'" he said.
Positive feedback has also come from operators fresh from the field during recent trials with the aircraft at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md.
"I spent the summer of 2004 in Afghanistan and led 22 direct-action air assaults," said one Navy SEAL team leader who asked not to be identified. "Coming in on the helos, the enemy would hear us when we were still [minutes] out. That was time they had to flee or to get ready to shoot at us. With the Osprey, my experience has been that you don't hear it until it's already over your head."
Brown acknowledged that it has been a long road to get the V-22 from earlier designs to a mature technology that's ready for war.
"This is not the same aircraft that was flying six years ago," said Marine Corps Col. Bill Taylor, head of the V-22 Joint Program Office. "Both the aircraft and the program have been reengineered, and more than ten thousand flight hours over the last three-and-a-half years have validated those changes. And we will continue to make improvements for as long as this aircraft is in the inventory."
On March 3, the Marine Corps will stand up the first operational V-22 squadron, VMM-263, at MCAS New River. The Marines' MV-22 reaches initial operational capability, meaning it is ready to deploy for combat, in summer 2007, though the squadron will be airborne with its full complement of Ospreys at New River within the year. Initial operational capability for the Air Force's CV-22 follows in 2009.
Air Force leadership accepted the keys for the first combat-configured CV-22 Osprey from Bell Boeing March 1 in a ceremony at the Bell manufacturing facility in Amarillo, Texas.
While earlier versions of the CV-22 tiltrotor aircraft are in use as test assets, this is the first of the "Block B/10" aircraft, representing the configuration that the Air Force Special Operations Command will take into combat in 2009.
Senior DoD leaders taking part in the ceremony included Army Gen. Doug Brown, commander of U.S. Special Operations Command; Air Force Lt. Gen. John L. Hudson, commander of Aeronautical Systems Center; and Air Force Maj. Gen. Donald Wurster, vice commander of AFSOC. The man to receive the keys to the aircraft, however, was Air Force Lt. Col. Jim Cardoso, commanding officer of the 71st Special Operations Squadron, which will get this Osprey to support aircrew training at Kirtland Air Force Base, N.M.
The Air Force will purchase 50 CV-22s for long-range infiltration, exfiltration and re-supply of special operations forces in hostile or denied territory. The Osprey provides twice the speed, up to five times the range and significantly enhanced survivability over other conventional rotary wing platforms.
At the same time, it retains the operational flexibility of a helicopter, with the ability to take off and land vertically, and insert troops via "fast rope" capability onto rooftops or decks of ships.
"This aircraft is the single most significant transformation of Air Force Special Operations since the introduction of the helicopter," said Wurster. "Nearly every mission we have faced in the last 20 years could have been done better and faster with the V-22."
Wurster also spoke of the positive impact the aircraft would have on protecting troops in Afghanistan and Iraq today.
"Our ability to move point to point by air, over extended distances at high speed, would reduce our exposure to the roadside attacks" that are responsible for so many casualties, he said.
The CV-22 is about 85 percent common with the MV-22 Osprey that the Marine Corps will deploy with in 2007, but possesses a number of additional capabilities tailored to the demands of its unique mission.
A Multi-Mode Radar with terrain following/terrain avoidance modes allows aggressive, terrain-masking ingress routes to be flown safely under cover of darkness. The Suite of Integrated Radio-Frequency Countermeasures and the Directed Infrared Countermeasures systems detect and defeat radar-guided and heat-seeking missiles, respectively. The CV-22 also has additional internal fuel capacity and enhanced navigation systems, communications and avionics gear when compared to the MV-22.
"This gives us global reach," Brown said of the CV-22. "We can reach out and touch bad guys wherever they live around the world."
On Feb. 24, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld rode in the jump seat of an MV-22 Osprey on a short flight from Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C., to Camp Lejeune, N.C. The Defense Department approved full rate production of the Osprey in September 2005, following successful completion of an operational evaluation in which the Osprey demonstrated all the key performance parameters for the Marine Corps mission. Additional operational test will begin later this year for those systems and mission profiles unique to the CV-22.
Brown said his troops would like to have the aircraft in theater today. "I never go to visit them without getting the question, 'When are we going to get the CV-22?'" he said.
Positive feedback has also come from operators fresh from the field during recent trials with the aircraft at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md.
"I spent the summer of 2004 in Afghanistan and led 22 direct-action air assaults," said one Navy SEAL team leader who asked not to be identified. "Coming in on the helos, the enemy would hear us when we were still [minutes] out. That was time they had to flee or to get ready to shoot at us. With the Osprey, my experience has been that you don't hear it until it's already over your head."
Brown acknowledged that it has been a long road to get the V-22 from earlier designs to a mature technology that's ready for war.
"This is not the same aircraft that was flying six years ago," said Marine Corps Col. Bill Taylor, head of the V-22 Joint Program Office. "Both the aircraft and the program have been reengineered, and more than ten thousand flight hours over the last three-and-a-half years have validated those changes. And we will continue to make improvements for as long as this aircraft is in the inventory."
On March 3, the Marine Corps will stand up the first operational V-22 squadron, VMM-263, at MCAS New River. The Marines' MV-22 reaches initial operational capability, meaning it is ready to deploy for combat, in summer 2007, though the squadron will be airborne with its full complement of Ospreys at New River within the year. Initial operational capability for the Air Force's CV-22 follows in 2009.