Too old to [be paid to...] fly ??
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Too old to [be paid to...] fly ??
Here's a question of legality for you:
- Pilot X is over 60, has a CPL(H) and an FI(H)
- Passed previous medical with flying colours
- Owns own aircraft
- Runs own Company X Aerial Work Services Ltd. performing aerial photo, inspections, etc.
- Cameraman / Observer / etc is employed directly by Company X
1) As X is over 60, X CAN'T fly single pilot Commercial Flights (not allowed to receive renumeration), although Co-jockey of twin pilot is ok - AGREED no problem - law is clear
2) Aerial work is NOT classed as AOC work and therefore no AOC is required to be held - AGREED no problem - law is clear
3) CAN'T fly aerial work as it is argued (guess who) that X will be receiving renumeration for the flying (albeit that our common understanding of aerial work requirements is met: i.e. no fare-paying pax on board, invoices through Company X, etc) - huh ?
HOWEVER ...
4) CAN instruct using valid FI(H) and therefore CAN be paid to fly !! - double huh ? - seems to contradict point 3 !!
Questions:
- How can one be paid to instruct, over 60, but not be paid to fly under aerial work?
- Aren't there a "number" of older pilots out there instructing / performing aerial work over 60 (please do NOT grass yourselves up !) ?
- Where is the consistency, or am I being fed a load of old "bunny" and its a lack of understanding within the Campaign Against Aviation ?
Incidentally, this person is NOT me - I am just trying to clear up the understanding of the legal position and wondering how much other lack of understanding exists out there in industry.
I would like to think this will generate a hot debate identifying how unclear the Aerial Work section of air law is.
Answers on the back of a fag packet, postcard, PPrune thread, etc ...
- Pilot X is over 60, has a CPL(H) and an FI(H)
- Passed previous medical with flying colours
- Owns own aircraft
- Runs own Company X Aerial Work Services Ltd. performing aerial photo, inspections, etc.
- Cameraman / Observer / etc is employed directly by Company X
1) As X is over 60, X CAN'T fly single pilot Commercial Flights (not allowed to receive renumeration), although Co-jockey of twin pilot is ok - AGREED no problem - law is clear
2) Aerial work is NOT classed as AOC work and therefore no AOC is required to be held - AGREED no problem - law is clear
3) CAN'T fly aerial work as it is argued (guess who) that X will be receiving renumeration for the flying (albeit that our common understanding of aerial work requirements is met: i.e. no fare-paying pax on board, invoices through Company X, etc) - huh ?
HOWEVER ...
4) CAN instruct using valid FI(H) and therefore CAN be paid to fly !! - double huh ? - seems to contradict point 3 !!
Questions:
- How can one be paid to instruct, over 60, but not be paid to fly under aerial work?
- Aren't there a "number" of older pilots out there instructing / performing aerial work over 60 (please do NOT grass yourselves up !) ?
- Where is the consistency, or am I being fed a load of old "bunny" and its a lack of understanding within the Campaign Against Aviation ?
Incidentally, this person is NOT me - I am just trying to clear up the understanding of the legal position and wondering how much other lack of understanding exists out there in industry.
I would like to think this will generate a hot debate identifying how unclear the Aerial Work section of air law is.
Answers on the back of a fag packet, postcard, PPrune thread, etc ...
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Everybody else will be expected to work until they are 67 very soon to qualify for a pension, so where does that leave us and who is going to pay for the extra 7 years?
Answers on the back of a second class stamp!
Rick
Answers on the back of a second class stamp!
Rick
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I don't understand what you mean about the aerial work.
You will have to explain to me again why he is not allowed to fly the aerial work flight. I thought that it was just single crew public transport that had that limit in the UK.
You will have to explain to me again why he is not allowed to fly the aerial work flight. I thought that it was just single crew public transport that had that limit in the UK.
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headsethair,
The 60 year age limit is, as I understood it, not related to holding a commercial licence, nor being paid but but rather flying single crew public transport. If it ain't public transport, then the age 60 limit does not apply........ You can earn money as a commercial pilot flying single crew, but you can't fly PT single crew.
ANO Schedule 8 Excerpt:
Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more
The holder of a licence who has attained the age of 60 years but not attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of a helicopter on a public transport flight except where the holder is:
a) a member of a multi-pilot crew; and
b) the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained the age of 60 years
At least, that is my understanding.
The 60 year age limit is, as I understood it, not related to holding a commercial licence, nor being paid but but rather flying single crew public transport. If it ain't public transport, then the age 60 limit does not apply........ You can earn money as a commercial pilot flying single crew, but you can't fly PT single crew.
ANO Schedule 8 Excerpt:
Curtailment of privileges of licence holders aged 60 years or more
The holder of a licence who has attained the age of 60 years but not attained the age of 65 years shall not act as a pilot of a helicopter on a public transport flight except where the holder is:
a) a member of a multi-pilot crew; and
b) the only pilot in the flight crew who has attained the age of 60 years
At least, that is my understanding.
Last edited by Helinut; 21st Dec 2005 at 19:33.
Wow.. you guy´s in the UK have some weird rules if this is true
But I agree with Helinut. It´s got nothing to do with renumeration or commercial licence but has everything to do with public transport i.e. JAR-OPS 3 work. Where JAR does restrict pilots at the age of 60 to fly multi crew only until 65 and one pilot has to be under 60.
In my country Aerial work requires AOC, this is clearly different from the UK rules. And any commercial pilot with valid 1st class medical can do aerial work in Iceland and Denmark. Both countries are fully JAA compliant. But then again Aerial work is not really covered by JAR so national rules apply.
But I agree with Helinut. It´s got nothing to do with renumeration or commercial licence but has everything to do with public transport i.e. JAR-OPS 3 work. Where JAR does restrict pilots at the age of 60 to fly multi crew only until 65 and one pilot has to be under 60.
In my country Aerial work requires AOC, this is clearly different from the UK rules. And any commercial pilot with valid 1st class medical can do aerial work in Iceland and Denmark. Both countries are fully JAA compliant. But then again Aerial work is not really covered by JAR so national rules apply.
.....or in the USA.....no age limit on non-scheduled flights. Some GOMers are in their 70's....still flogging JetRangers and such out to the rigs.
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60 and out!
In some countries the regulation is even more clear cut. In Singapore for example the ANO states “A licence of the class referred to in (a) to (k) shall not be renewed or granted to any person who has attained the age of 60 years."
The reference (a) to (k) means all pilot's licences starting at a Student Pilot’s Licence and going all the way up to an ATPL, for helicopters, airplanes, balloons, airships, etc.; the lot!
Having said that, I understand from industry sources that Singapore Airlines is giving contracts to direct entry Captains valid up to the age of 62 years. Apparently this is in anticipation of a change in the ICAO regulations which will be immediately adopted by CAAS.
The reference (a) to (k) means all pilot's licences starting at a Student Pilot’s Licence and going all the way up to an ATPL, for helicopters, airplanes, balloons, airships, etc.; the lot!
Having said that, I understand from industry sources that Singapore Airlines is giving contracts to direct entry Captains valid up to the age of 62 years. Apparently this is in anticipation of a change in the ICAO regulations which will be immediately adopted by CAAS.
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Sad but true
Thank you all for your interesting replies - especially the statements about other countries rules although I have to say it doesn't add much to the debate.
From what I see, you are all as unclear about this "grey" area of the law in the UK, as I am (and the Campaign !!!).
Aesir and HeliNut
I have been told by the powers that be, that Pilot X is unable to fly aerial work for renumeration (aerial work being own ship, no pax, company crew member, i.e. photo work, aerial observation etc) as X is over 60 and therefore cannot exercise their CPL(H) - presumably X would be allowed to do it for FREE, however, other than some low time hour builder WHO in their right mind would incur huge expenses for the benefit of someone else's lovely photo of their house ???
HedsetHair and HeliNut
That was my understanding until I was told otherwise - from what the Campaign are saying:
- CPL single pilot = NOT OVER 60 (understood - no problem)
- CPL aerial work over 60 = NOT ALLOWED due to renumeration as it is therefore commercial work
- FI(H) over 60 = ALLOWED and renumeration ALLOWED ?
So WHY can a 60+ FI(H) be paid to fly with a student ? If the same 60+ cannot be paid to fly their own aircraft, with a company crew member to take photos ?????
Methinks the law is an Ass m'lud !! That or the understanding of the law is conducted by Asses.
I believe that if you asked every pilot in the UK to look at this problem, you'd have a multitude of differing answers ... so why does the regulator insist on considering the amendment of rules about private over water flights in R22 needing floats whilst gaping chasm's of misunderstanding exist over something as [sic] simple as What is PT, Aerial Work or Private Cat flying !!!
Sheesh - only in aviation ! No wonder pilots have brains the size of planets (and cojones to match - sorry ladies, you qualify also) !!!
Its always better to be pi$$ed off than pi$$ed on !
FO
From what I see, you are all as unclear about this "grey" area of the law in the UK, as I am (and the Campaign !!!).
Aesir and HeliNut
I have been told by the powers that be, that Pilot X is unable to fly aerial work for renumeration (aerial work being own ship, no pax, company crew member, i.e. photo work, aerial observation etc) as X is over 60 and therefore cannot exercise their CPL(H) - presumably X would be allowed to do it for FREE, however, other than some low time hour builder WHO in their right mind would incur huge expenses for the benefit of someone else's lovely photo of their house ???
HedsetHair and HeliNut
That was my understanding until I was told otherwise - from what the Campaign are saying:
- CPL single pilot = NOT OVER 60 (understood - no problem)
- CPL aerial work over 60 = NOT ALLOWED due to renumeration as it is therefore commercial work
- FI(H) over 60 = ALLOWED and renumeration ALLOWED ?
So WHY can a 60+ FI(H) be paid to fly with a student ? If the same 60+ cannot be paid to fly their own aircraft, with a company crew member to take photos ?????
Methinks the law is an Ass m'lud !! That or the understanding of the law is conducted by Asses.
I believe that if you asked every pilot in the UK to look at this problem, you'd have a multitude of differing answers ... so why does the regulator insist on considering the amendment of rules about private over water flights in R22 needing floats whilst gaping chasm's of misunderstanding exist over something as [sic] simple as What is PT, Aerial Work or Private Cat flying !!!
Sheesh - only in aviation ! No wonder pilots have brains the size of planets (and cojones to match - sorry ladies, you qualify also) !!!
Its always better to be pi$$ed off than pi$$ed on !
FO
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Uncle Ian posted in July on his fight to raise this limit. He was going down the route of European age discrimination law. Not sure where he has got with it. I imagine it’s a nightmare of paperwork.
FP.
FP.
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All this lot is UK based.
I won't go around this again, beyond saying that the "powers that be" can't just say "no remuneration after 60". There has to be a rule/regulation/requirement written down somewhere. The one that I quoted does not say - no remuneration/no commercial work after 60;
it DOES say - no single pilot public transport after 60
which is a bit different.
My suggestion is that a CPL/ATPL aged between 60 and 65 can fly single pilot/multi crew and be paid for aerial work (including instruction). He can also do a private cat flight for which he is paid.
Get the "powers that be" to quote the legal requirement that prevents such a pilot from being paid after 60.
I won't go around this again, beyond saying that the "powers that be" can't just say "no remuneration after 60". There has to be a rule/regulation/requirement written down somewhere. The one that I quoted does not say - no remuneration/no commercial work after 60;
it DOES say - no single pilot public transport after 60
which is a bit different.
My suggestion is that a CPL/ATPL aged between 60 and 65 can fly single pilot/multi crew and be paid for aerial work (including instruction). He can also do a private cat flight for which he is paid.
Get the "powers that be" to quote the legal requirement that prevents such a pilot from being paid after 60.
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In response to Flying Pencil: I seem to have CAA agreement that curtailment of privileges at age 60 will cease in 2006. The caveat is that nothing to do with CAA is as straightforward as it should be.........................
Which brings me to the ridiculous situation regarding Aerial Work in UK. I do it all the time; having an ownership interest in some helicopters helps but the other requirements need to be met with some artifice at times. My view is that the Authority dare not prosecute for illegal Public Transport as the current legislation is as watertight as I am fast becoming as I reach my dotage [ie age 60]. By contrast I worked in Eire recently completely legally with the superb help of IAA in issuing Aerial Work and Low Flying Permits on reciept of straightforward documents and a modest fee.
I intend to carry on doing exactly what I do now in terms of Aerial Work well into my sixties and will challenge the CAA in the european courts if my privileges in respect of all flying are curtailed after the adoption in UK of age discrimination legislation next year. Anyone caring to join the cause can contact me here.
Which brings me to the ridiculous situation regarding Aerial Work in UK. I do it all the time; having an ownership interest in some helicopters helps but the other requirements need to be met with some artifice at times. My view is that the Authority dare not prosecute for illegal Public Transport as the current legislation is as watertight as I am fast becoming as I reach my dotage [ie age 60]. By contrast I worked in Eire recently completely legally with the superb help of IAA in issuing Aerial Work and Low Flying Permits on reciept of straightforward documents and a modest fee.
I intend to carry on doing exactly what I do now in terms of Aerial Work well into my sixties and will challenge the CAA in the european courts if my privileges in respect of all flying are curtailed after the adoption in UK of age discrimination legislation next year. Anyone caring to join the cause can contact me here.
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Good luck with your campaign, Uncle Ian.
But can anyone explain to me WHY an experienced, fit and capable pilot should be forced to stop flying public transport at these arbitrary ages? Does it mean that the legislators recognise that the medicals and base checks they impose on us have no purpose other to churn income for people outside the cockpit? Or that the AME's and training captains are all incompetent?
What are the figures for incapacitation of public transport helicopter pilots in the various age groups? I bet nobody, even the insurance actuaries, has ever sorted out one type of pilot from another and produced actuarial figures to back up the legislator's requirements.
Yes I have an axe to grind as I fell foul of this idiocy ("not our fault, it's ICAO", not our fault it's the UK CAA/SRG" etc). Again the FAA seems a bit more enlightened; will ICAO see the logic I wonder?
But can anyone explain to me WHY an experienced, fit and capable pilot should be forced to stop flying public transport at these arbitrary ages? Does it mean that the legislators recognise that the medicals and base checks they impose on us have no purpose other to churn income for people outside the cockpit? Or that the AME's and training captains are all incompetent?
What are the figures for incapacitation of public transport helicopter pilots in the various age groups? I bet nobody, even the insurance actuaries, has ever sorted out one type of pilot from another and produced actuarial figures to back up the legislator's requirements.
Yes I have an axe to grind as I fell foul of this idiocy ("not our fault, it's ICAO", not our fault it's the UK CAA/SRG" etc). Again the FAA seems a bit more enlightened; will ICAO see the logic I wonder?
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Uncle Ian,
Thank you for your post ... I was hoping that someone in a similar situation may own up to agreeing what nonsense the understanding of the requirements seems to be.
I have spoken with Pilot X who was very interested to hear snippets of your post - they are intending to log on to PPrune to read the thread in full and will most likely be in touch.
Thanks again to all respondees, and best of British to you fellows who are now "past it" (Campaign's words not mine !) - I would rather fly with the majority of you due to your wealth of experience than a restricted FI(H) with a handful of hours beating up the circuit in a Robbo.
As its the season of goodwill, I raise my glass to experience ... and trust the Parkinsons will allow you to 'clink' glasses with me.
Lets hope one day that common sense will prevail !
Viva la revolution
FO
Thank you for your post ... I was hoping that someone in a similar situation may own up to agreeing what nonsense the understanding of the requirements seems to be.
I have spoken with Pilot X who was very interested to hear snippets of your post - they are intending to log on to PPrune to read the thread in full and will most likely be in touch.
Thanks again to all respondees, and best of British to you fellows who are now "past it" (Campaign's words not mine !) - I would rather fly with the majority of you due to your wealth of experience than a restricted FI(H) with a handful of hours beating up the circuit in a Robbo.
As its the season of goodwill, I raise my glass to experience ... and trust the Parkinsons will allow you to 'clink' glasses with me.
Lets hope one day that common sense will prevail !
Viva la revolution
FO
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As an aging wrinkly who is trying to retire and finds the market still seems to want one to carry on is most gratifying. I suppose that after around 35 years in the business and still in the frame must show some confidence in ones expertise. The only problem is determining the correct glasses and selection for the moment. Still color coding of the string round the neck helps.
Have a great X Mass and New Year to all.
Aging wrinkly outhouse
Have a great X Mass and New Year to all.
Aging wrinkly outhouse
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Mr Toad,
As part of my campaign I asked the head quack at CAA for his statistics from UK and overseas to justify the 60 rule. He admitted he had none!
Flight Oops,
Any time. Glad to share my opinions/experiences with anyone who wants less regulation without compromising safety.
I shalln't log on to this again 'till after Christmas.........so............. A Very Happy One to anyone reading this.
Uncle Ian
As part of my campaign I asked the head quack at CAA for his statistics from UK and overseas to justify the 60 rule. He admitted he had none!
Flight Oops,
Any time. Glad to share my opinions/experiences with anyone who wants less regulation without compromising safety.
I shalln't log on to this again 'till after Christmas.........so............. A Very Happy One to anyone reading this.
Uncle Ian
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Over 60?
Dennis K is also one of those wrinklies who has to hold up his hand in shame!
I've been 'over the 60' limit now for 13 years, in which time I've carried out 165 public flying displays, completed five feature films, taken part in three world 'helicopter freestyle' championships and taught 82 pilots to fly.
But I'm not allowed to drop a few fare paying punters off at Silverstone or the Derby.
Where's my Zimmer ?
Happy Xmas lads.
I've been 'over the 60' limit now for 13 years, in which time I've carried out 165 public flying displays, completed five feature films, taken part in three world 'helicopter freestyle' championships and taught 82 pilots to fly.
But I'm not allowed to drop a few fare paying punters off at Silverstone or the Derby.
Where's my Zimmer ?
Happy Xmas lads.
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And probably the best fixed-wing display pilot in the world was still showing youngsters how it should be done when he finished last season at the age of 77.
Sadly, he passed away a few weeks ago.
Link.
Sadly, he passed away a few weeks ago.
Link.
