British v American approach to flying
Chief Bottle Washer
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Please don't let this become a national pride or anti-American thread.
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Interesting thread. Glad I finally noticed it.
Seems just about every macro point of view ref: licensing systems and associated cultural attributes of them has been brought up.
Having worked both sides of the pond under the UK and FAA systems as a line pilot, instructor, training captain and check airman the one thing that struck me about the UK training and standards, as compared to FAA, is that pilots learn a lot more about why things in helicopters are the way they are than their FAA counterpart. I noticed UK pilots more proficient at analyizing and dealing with abnormal situations as well as being able to express the situation to maintenance engineers in order to expedite troubleshooting and fixing - for what that is worth, and it may be substantial, I'm not in much a position, or with sufficient interest, to prove it - just an observation.
The UK standard certainly provides a pilot who can talk a better show than the FAA one but when it comes right down to the normal flying bits I haven't noticed much difference in capability or actual performance in training, under check/test, or in line flying.
WIII
BTW - Far as I know the FAA's mandate hasn't included 'promoting' aviation for quite awhile - I believe their focus is regulatory and enforcement; though many of them do have quite a forward looking and helpful attitude towards their job - definitely more positive and helpful to the average pilot than many of their UK counterparts.
Seems just about every macro point of view ref: licensing systems and associated cultural attributes of them has been brought up.
Having worked both sides of the pond under the UK and FAA systems as a line pilot, instructor, training captain and check airman the one thing that struck me about the UK training and standards, as compared to FAA, is that pilots learn a lot more about why things in helicopters are the way they are than their FAA counterpart. I noticed UK pilots more proficient at analyizing and dealing with abnormal situations as well as being able to express the situation to maintenance engineers in order to expedite troubleshooting and fixing - for what that is worth, and it may be substantial, I'm not in much a position, or with sufficient interest, to prove it - just an observation.
The UK standard certainly provides a pilot who can talk a better show than the FAA one but when it comes right down to the normal flying bits I haven't noticed much difference in capability or actual performance in training, under check/test, or in line flying.
WIII
BTW - Far as I know the FAA's mandate hasn't included 'promoting' aviation for quite awhile - I believe their focus is regulatory and enforcement; though many of them do have quite a forward looking and helpful attitude towards their job - definitely more positive and helpful to the average pilot than many of their UK counterparts.
I would think this is more an FAA/CAA,CASA/JAA/EASA discussion vice American/British/Australian per se.
Granted the various national personalities have a bearing upon the process and that in itself might be telling a bit about our various mindsets and views upon what is important and what is not.
The real discussion should be about how to cherry pick the good parts of the various systems and meld them into a single system that would work worldwide re licensing, training, and operations.
But that requres a decision as to what the priorities must be towards cost, structure, and philosophy.
All that being said.....I find very little in the CAA system to embrace beyond perhaps the CAA/UK system seems to value safety a bit more than perhaps some of others....but at what cost?
The FAA accessibility, building block approach to licensing and testing for those licenses plainly beats the CAA concept.
The funding method of the US FAA system seems superior to the UK/CAA.
The "costs" to the user cannot be beat in the US FAA system.
I can assure you....my once intricate knowledge of "cereal bowl" compasses....and valve overlap and cam timing....and the landing gear system of a Lancaster Bomber never made me a "better" helicopter pilot.
That being said....I have made good use of old Lord Buys Ballot's law! If I could just remember if it is the right or left arm....and which hemisphere requires which arm? Too many choices I guess!
Granted the various national personalities have a bearing upon the process and that in itself might be telling a bit about our various mindsets and views upon what is important and what is not.
The real discussion should be about how to cherry pick the good parts of the various systems and meld them into a single system that would work worldwide re licensing, training, and operations.
But that requres a decision as to what the priorities must be towards cost, structure, and philosophy.
All that being said.....I find very little in the CAA system to embrace beyond perhaps the CAA/UK system seems to value safety a bit more than perhaps some of others....but at what cost?
The FAA accessibility, building block approach to licensing and testing for those licenses plainly beats the CAA concept.
The funding method of the US FAA system seems superior to the UK/CAA.
The "costs" to the user cannot be beat in the US FAA system.
I can assure you....my once intricate knowledge of "cereal bowl" compasses....and valve overlap and cam timing....and the landing gear system of a Lancaster Bomber never made me a "better" helicopter pilot.
That being said....I have made good use of old Lord Buys Ballot's law! If I could just remember if it is the right or left arm....and which hemisphere requires which arm? Too many choices I guess!
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WhirlwindIII
While the 'promoting' part may be gone from the FAA's mandate, the requirement to write only the minimum legislation necessary for safety has not. This alone is a huge part of the difference in approach between the two sides of the Atlantic.
While the 'promoting' part may be gone from the FAA's mandate, the requirement to write only the minimum legislation necessary for safety has not. This alone is a huge part of the difference in approach between the two sides of the Atlantic.
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SASless
Yes, more a combined authority discussion but my experience is limited to CAA/FAA and I do agree the UK system seems to value safety a bit more, but as you say, "at what cost". I remember all the CAA writtens, systems and law and type technicals - challenging and what a helicopter pilot seems to favor, knowledge of the field, or is it just theory disguised as *&^%&&&& ? I won't go towards a discussion of JARs etc. Far too much thinking and far too little knowledge.
Shawn
Agree. In years past I had a few years of reasonably close dealings with AFS 400 - 420 and 800 etc., and those in OKC, and a few of the supporting arms and organizations to find the size of the beurocracy and its inefficiencies create a huge impediment to writing regulation, which may not be how it is in the UK/Europe. As a result I see the FAA pretty much 'regulating' by Ops Spec, etc. This may in fact be more efficient, flexible, and useful than the UK regulatory approach but I do admire the latter's standards and overall think them useful, albeit cumbersome, annoying, and very expensive. Just me.
Yes, more a combined authority discussion but my experience is limited to CAA/FAA and I do agree the UK system seems to value safety a bit more, but as you say, "at what cost". I remember all the CAA writtens, systems and law and type technicals - challenging and what a helicopter pilot seems to favor, knowledge of the field, or is it just theory disguised as *&^%&&&& ? I won't go towards a discussion of JARs etc. Far too much thinking and far too little knowledge.
Shawn
Agree. In years past I had a few years of reasonably close dealings with AFS 400 - 420 and 800 etc., and those in OKC, and a few of the supporting arms and organizations to find the size of the beurocracy and its inefficiencies create a huge impediment to writing regulation, which may not be how it is in the UK/Europe. As a result I see the FAA pretty much 'regulating' by Ops Spec, etc. This may in fact be more efficient, flexible, and useful than the UK regulatory approach but I do admire the latter's standards and overall think them useful, albeit cumbersome, annoying, and very expensive. Just me.
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Hey WhirlwindII,
I came to the US with a UK PPL I got in 2005 and quickly realised that I knew absolutely nothing compared to someone who had done their training in the US. I had also done the JAA ATPL exams and wondered why I had spent 6 months of 10 hours study a day when I would have been better off being thought to be a helicopter pilot.
I've trained people from all over the world and I've always found that when a European ppl comes to the US to hour build, or get a CPL, their level of knowledge, and in most cases flying ability, is way below that of an FAA ppl - and I can say this without any bias because I was once that person! I thought myself, when I came over, that JAA was way more advanced, and quickly realised that us, as Europeans, are just a more arrogant people!
I believe that on the FAA side you learn a lot more about the machine you fly. I did all my commercial and IR flying in the US so cant comment on any comparison there.
Just another point of view from someone who trained in both places and has both licenses!
I came to the US with a UK PPL I got in 2005 and quickly realised that I knew absolutely nothing compared to someone who had done their training in the US. I had also done the JAA ATPL exams and wondered why I had spent 6 months of 10 hours study a day when I would have been better off being thought to be a helicopter pilot.
I've trained people from all over the world and I've always found that when a European ppl comes to the US to hour build, or get a CPL, their level of knowledge, and in most cases flying ability, is way below that of an FAA ppl - and I can say this without any bias because I was once that person! I thought myself, when I came over, that JAA was way more advanced, and quickly realised that us, as Europeans, are just a more arrogant people!
I believe that on the FAA side you learn a lot more about the machine you fly. I did all my commercial and IR flying in the US so cant comment on any comparison there.
Just another point of view from someone who trained in both places and has both licenses!
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dwoodcoc
I never had any experience on the PPL level so that's kinda out of my league in the backlooking sense. I'm glad you have found a good time of it here in the U.S. My experience with both sides of the pond ended in the '80s - no idea what you might have experienced back then on such a comparison you've secured.
I believe what HAI have done for the training equation here in the US is a boon for both sides. George Bedford was the Bristows principal of their UK scheme there and here in the U.S. for quite awhile. Knowing him I suspect he brought a great deal to the table.
I believe the 6 months and 10 hours a day! Do the CAA Instructor Course - that's fun too! I struggled, believe me!
I hope your career is as full, safe, and varied as mine, you certainly have a good and open attitude to achieve it!
Fly safe.
WIII
I never had any experience on the PPL level so that's kinda out of my league in the backlooking sense. I'm glad you have found a good time of it here in the U.S. My experience with both sides of the pond ended in the '80s - no idea what you might have experienced back then on such a comparison you've secured.
I believe what HAI have done for the training equation here in the US is a boon for both sides. George Bedford was the Bristows principal of their UK scheme there and here in the U.S. for quite awhile. Knowing him I suspect he brought a great deal to the table.
I believe the 6 months and 10 hours a day! Do the CAA Instructor Course - that's fun too! I struggled, believe me!
I hope your career is as full, safe, and varied as mine, you certainly have a good and open attitude to achieve it!
Fly safe.
WIII
