Value of Police Helicopter Support Confirmed
Guest
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Heliport, I have a lot of past experiance in CCtv and security camera operations, a camera as small as a packet of cigarettes can give vision from 500 yds down to see the detail on a coin, add this to a micro relay and you have the possiblity of twenty camera's all beamed to one or two screens with multi views and recording, it seems that because I challenge the tasking of the Police Helios, that I am hostile to the Police or the Pas, well take it from me I AM NOT, but what I do see is a great amount of money soemtimes, and I stress Sometimes being used in directions which seem wrong to me, I agree that any bunch of out of work yobbo's should be hearded like cattle until they are tired out and then marched away from any HOT area, I agree with the action that was taken in London earlier this week, but again what I cannot see is why when we are told that there was a force of 9000 policemen and women on the job do they need to risk the low hovering helio over such a pent up force which was to all intents coralled, sorry if my comments upset variouse people, but as you say I am only voicing my opinion, by the way its been lovely flying in the big blue yonder today
Guest
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Heliport - I note your deletions but I am seriously disappointed that we are now subject to censorship when you don't like the content. Whatever happened to freedom of speech? Well to those it concerns I will repeat the erudite quotation of Geroge Elliot - Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin:
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".
"keeping an ear to the ground"
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".
"keeping an ear to the ground"
Guest
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vfrpilotpb,
What was the "risk to the low hovering helio" that you perceived?
How much "helio" experience do you have, in particular of first-hand police helicopter operations? Do you understand Performance A / Class 1 performance?
What is "the Pas" that you refer to? (PAS is actually an abbreviation of a company name; one of the major providers of police aviation. Is it that company that you are referring to?)
What was the "risk to the low hovering helio" that you perceived?
How much "helio" experience do you have, in particular of first-hand police helicopter operations? Do you understand Performance A / Class 1 performance?
What is "the Pas" that you refer to? (PAS is actually an abbreviation of a company name; one of the major providers of police aviation. Is it that company that you are referring to?)
Guest
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Vfrpilotpb
You and I have at least two things in common
- we both know f* all about how police air support is used on occasions like this
- we both know a man who does. (several in fact)
You and I are also very different in at least one way, which may be what irritates a few people
- I read and learn
- you refuse change your mind even when given the facts by people who don't just have an opinion, they know the facts.
Earpiece
Sorry, much as I entirely disagree wirh Vfrpilot's approach, I think that Heliport was right to delete a few posts.
You made personal remarks. Then your target, understandably, responded in similar personal vein. Then someone else joined in the squabble. Then Heliport knocked it on the head before it got out of hand and spoit one of the best threads we've had for a long time.
It's not fair to say that was censorship because he didn't like the content. It's pretty obvious he doesn't agree with Vfr's opinions. He just deleted personal attacks.
I think the Rotorheads has improved a lot since Heliport became a moderator, and it's a lot more active forum that it used to be. He regularly posts helicopter news items, and starts interesting discussions - including this one! I think he's doing a good job.
(I also happen to disagree with Vfr, but that's not the point - your post was bound to start a war!)
[This message has been edited by LightningIII (edited 04 May 2001).]
You and I have at least two things in common
- we both know f* all about how police air support is used on occasions like this
- we both know a man who does. (several in fact)
You and I are also very different in at least one way, which may be what irritates a few people
- I read and learn
- you refuse change your mind even when given the facts by people who don't just have an opinion, they know the facts.
Earpiece
Sorry, much as I entirely disagree wirh Vfrpilot's approach, I think that Heliport was right to delete a few posts.
You made personal remarks. Then your target, understandably, responded in similar personal vein. Then someone else joined in the squabble. Then Heliport knocked it on the head before it got out of hand and spoit one of the best threads we've had for a long time.
It's not fair to say that was censorship because he didn't like the content. It's pretty obvious he doesn't agree with Vfr's opinions. He just deleted personal attacks.
I think the Rotorheads has improved a lot since Heliport became a moderator, and it's a lot more active forum that it used to be. He regularly posts helicopter news items, and starts interesting discussions - including this one! I think he's doing a good job.
(I also happen to disagree with Vfr, but that's not the point - your post was bound to start a war!)
[This message has been edited by LightningIII (edited 04 May 2001).]
Guest
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Agree with Skycop. Vfr, I think you'll find that the police and ENG helos over London were between 1000 ft and 1500 ft agl: well above the 'legal' minimum heights iaw CAA permitted exemptions.
The value of the airborne camera is that it is truly mobile and is backed up by three sets of Mk 1 eyeballs that can assist far more effectively than a battery of fixed cameras.
The value of the airborne camera is that it is truly mobile and is backed up by three sets of Mk 1 eyeballs that can assist far more effectively than a battery of fixed cameras.
Guest
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God Morning Heliport. I have referred in past posts to the PAS, I had not realised this was a private company, and I must apologise for possible infringment of their name/initials, no slight was intended>
Heliport I understand what you say, about the problem in London with all the mobs, I also think the Police did a great job in breaking the so called May day Riots down to a very smalll amount of physical damage, I offer no support at all, to any rule by criminals or mob's,
It seems because I voice my opinion about certain matters relating to the use by the Police of Helicopters, I am being subject to a seemingly large amount of personal abuse, well, when people resort to this , is it not because they have no other answers?
Because of the person I am, I sometimes will reply with as much, if not more cutting comments.
Whilst I do not profess to have the mass of hours, or experience that some of the members of this thread do, never the less I am a pilot, we are all taught to beware, and be ready for the unexpected,not one of us can gain any protection from the rules laid down in any book, now what would you Police pilots have done hovering over possibly 20000 people, and masses of police personel, when "BANG", you are faced with the same problem as the Police helio in Cardiff last year, call me old fashioned, but gravity will win, all I am pointing out is my opinion, but the majority of you are seeming to take my opinions as a personal afront to your particular position, or skill, that I cannot help, but please tell me and indicate if you are prepared to stand by your comment, that no Police Helicopter will ever again fall out of the sky? that is the main reason that I still say, and think the Police helicopters are used sometimes in the wrong way, no amount of pointing out rule books, and regulations to fly by, will ever stop that sort of thing happening, will it. I am sorry to put in such a long answer , and I hope this time I have not upset any of you! if my views dont suit you.
[This message has been edited by Vfrpilotpb (edited 05 May 2001).]
Heliport I understand what you say, about the problem in London with all the mobs, I also think the Police did a great job in breaking the so called May day Riots down to a very smalll amount of physical damage, I offer no support at all, to any rule by criminals or mob's,
It seems because I voice my opinion about certain matters relating to the use by the Police of Helicopters, I am being subject to a seemingly large amount of personal abuse, well, when people resort to this , is it not because they have no other answers?
Because of the person I am, I sometimes will reply with as much, if not more cutting comments.
Whilst I do not profess to have the mass of hours, or experience that some of the members of this thread do, never the less I am a pilot, we are all taught to beware, and be ready for the unexpected,not one of us can gain any protection from the rules laid down in any book, now what would you Police pilots have done hovering over possibly 20000 people, and masses of police personel, when "BANG", you are faced with the same problem as the Police helio in Cardiff last year, call me old fashioned, but gravity will win, all I am pointing out is my opinion, but the majority of you are seeming to take my opinions as a personal afront to your particular position, or skill, that I cannot help, but please tell me and indicate if you are prepared to stand by your comment, that no Police Helicopter will ever again fall out of the sky? that is the main reason that I still say, and think the Police helicopters are used sometimes in the wrong way, no amount of pointing out rule books, and regulations to fly by, will ever stop that sort of thing happening, will it. I am sorry to put in such a long answer , and I hope this time I have not upset any of you! if my views dont suit you.
[This message has been edited by Vfrpilotpb (edited 05 May 2001).]
Guest
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Lightning 111 - your comments are accepted (as are yours TC) and I agree with you about the forum in general - but lets not get too serious because there is still room for some banter and I like (Ms) George Elliot's thoughts.
"keeping an ear to the ground"
"keeping an ear to the ground"
Guest
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Vfrplumbumoscillatum
At the risk of introducing a non-defamatory, probably inappropriate analogy - would you consider it fair then to stop issuing police forces with cars (inappropriate use has led to far more unpleasant incidents than with helis), radios (poor criminals never know what radhaz they're being subjected to while having their collars felt) and, occasionally,firearms (opportunity for abuse too obviousl to spell out here)? Maybe we should also stop giving them uniforms (far too many substantiated cases of impersonating an officer to allow that risk to continue)?
Or should we accept that allowing police forces access to the most appropriate equipment and technology is going to give them the best chance of maintaining public safety?
I should state my own interest here: no police or law enforcement background (other than Military Aid to the Civil Community), and a believer in the principle that the police should be allowed to enforce all laws passed by parliament, not just the ones that I personally and selfishly think they should pursue. Not that I'm ascribing such thoughts to anyone else, mind.
At the risk of introducing a non-defamatory, probably inappropriate analogy - would you consider it fair then to stop issuing police forces with cars (inappropriate use has led to far more unpleasant incidents than with helis), radios (poor criminals never know what radhaz they're being subjected to while having their collars felt) and, occasionally,firearms (opportunity for abuse too obviousl to spell out here)? Maybe we should also stop giving them uniforms (far too many substantiated cases of impersonating an officer to allow that risk to continue)?
Or should we accept that allowing police forces access to the most appropriate equipment and technology is going to give them the best chance of maintaining public safety?
I should state my own interest here: no police or law enforcement background (other than Military Aid to the Civil Community), and a believer in the principle that the police should be allowed to enforce all laws passed by parliament, not just the ones that I personally and selfishly think they should pursue. Not that I'm ascribing such thoughts to anyone else, mind.
Guest
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Thud & Blunder
You say you are
Are you really saying you think the police should enforce all laws with equal vigour?
Or that the same amount of police manpower/public money should be spent on enforcing all laws?
No doubt you'd support expensive police heli's being employed to use their state of the art camera equipment to check traffic meters for over-stayers.
You say you are
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">"a believer in the principle that the police should be allowed to enforce all laws passed by parliament, not just the ones that I personally and selfishly think they should pursue."</font>
Or that the same amount of police manpower/public money should be spent on enforcing all laws?
No doubt you'd support expensive police heli's being employed to use their state of the art camera equipment to check traffic meters for over-stayers.
Guest
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Thomas Coupling
In answer to the question you asked Vfrpilotpb
I think police heli's should be used for the detection and prevention of crime, including crowd monitoring for those purposes. And, searching for missing persons even when no crime is suspected, eg a child who may just have wandered off.
And I do mean crime not, except in the most extreme cases, simple traffic offences.
In answer to the question you asked Vfrpilotpb
I think police heli's should be used for the detection and prevention of crime, including crowd monitoring for those purposes. And, searching for missing persons even when no crime is suspected, eg a child who may just have wandered off.
And I do mean crime not, except in the most extreme cases, simple traffic offences.
Guest
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Thud & Blunder
I must be slowing down as you improve because I can't see the problem with the questions.
As for other people answering the questions - the thread's been running for some time and, I think you'd agree, the majority of posts dealing with this aspect have expressed a view contrary to yours. (Doesn't make them right of course.)
Straight-forward questions - no catch:
Do you think it is an acceptable use of public money to use a helicopter to catch motorists committing traffic offences?
Why do you say it's 'selfish' to express a view that some offences are so serious that the expense is justified, and some are not?
I happen to think that the police already waste far far too much money/manpower catching motorists - which should be used to catch criminals. Of course that's a personal view - most views are, whether original or adopted. I've picked up the odd speeding ticket over the last 35 years, but have never been attracted to robbing or rioting - does that undermine the value of my views, or make them 'selfish' in your opinion?
I must be slowing down as you improve because I can't see the problem with the questions.
As for other people answering the questions - the thread's been running for some time and, I think you'd agree, the majority of posts dealing with this aspect have expressed a view contrary to yours. (Doesn't make them right of course.)
Straight-forward questions - no catch:
Do you think it is an acceptable use of public money to use a helicopter to catch motorists committing traffic offences?
Why do you say it's 'selfish' to express a view that some offences are so serious that the expense is justified, and some are not?
I happen to think that the police already waste far far too much money/manpower catching motorists - which should be used to catch criminals. Of course that's a personal view - most views are, whether original or adopted. I've picked up the odd speeding ticket over the last 35 years, but have never been attracted to robbing or rioting - does that undermine the value of my views, or make them 'selfish' in your opinion?
Guest
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Hoverman: when does a traffic offence become a criminal offence (wreckless driving / dangerous driving /manslaughter,etc) And when do the police step into the fray. Should they wait until the former becomes the latter...and someone is killed (driver or innocent victim) or should they turn a blind eye to the speeding motorist and hope that they won't transgress that defining line?..and hope nothing happens so that they can concentrate on the more sinister aspects of law and order....
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Thermal runaway.
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Thermal runaway.
Guest
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Hoverman,
Oh dear - you were serious, eh? Well, may I offer the following:
If you are going to take issue with comments made earlier, make sure you don't add elements which never existed in the first place.
- At no stage did I ever say, as attributed in your first riposte, that I "..think the police should enforce all laws with equal vigour?". For the record, I don't.
- No amount of context-changing or assumption of ambivalence could lead a reader to understand that I believe "..that the same amount of police manpower/public money should be spent on enforcing all laws?". Again, I don't and have never said otherwise.
These comments are yours alone, and the way by which you came to them is unclear to me. I'll assume your comments re parking meters were humourously intended.
To reply to the questions in the second post:
"Do you think it is an acceptable use of public money to use a helicopter to catch motorists committing traffic offences?"
- Yes, if the public authority in the area concerned (democratically elected, etc) considers it a worthwhile means of improving road safety.
"Why do you say it's 'selfish' to express a view that some offences are so serious that the expense is justified, and some are not?"
- I ascribed the feelings of selfishness to myself - "not just the ones that I personally and selfishly think they should pursue". I did not at any time discuss the parameters for deciding whether or not expense is justified. I am happy to accept the view of those elected by the majority, and if I become unhappy I will use the democratic process to try and put my views across. By all means express your views in open forum, ideally to the lawmakers if you wish to see a change in procedure. Back in the UK you have the ideal opportunity next month.
I'm no angel by the way; last week I received a document from the equivalent of the local constabulary certifying that my tiny J10 is capable of 90 kph. I was obliged to pay 50 Brunei dollars for the privilege, as I happened to be in an area where the limit is 80 kph. That's the law, I broke it, I paid the penalty. The only way I'll change the law in THIS country is by personal appeal to one man - which system do you prefer to live under?
Oh dear - you were serious, eh? Well, may I offer the following:
If you are going to take issue with comments made earlier, make sure you don't add elements which never existed in the first place.
- At no stage did I ever say, as attributed in your first riposte, that I "..think the police should enforce all laws with equal vigour?". For the record, I don't.
- No amount of context-changing or assumption of ambivalence could lead a reader to understand that I believe "..that the same amount of police manpower/public money should be spent on enforcing all laws?". Again, I don't and have never said otherwise.
These comments are yours alone, and the way by which you came to them is unclear to me. I'll assume your comments re parking meters were humourously intended.
To reply to the questions in the second post:
"Do you think it is an acceptable use of public money to use a helicopter to catch motorists committing traffic offences?"
- Yes, if the public authority in the area concerned (democratically elected, etc) considers it a worthwhile means of improving road safety.
"Why do you say it's 'selfish' to express a view that some offences are so serious that the expense is justified, and some are not?"
- I ascribed the feelings of selfishness to myself - "not just the ones that I personally and selfishly think they should pursue". I did not at any time discuss the parameters for deciding whether or not expense is justified. I am happy to accept the view of those elected by the majority, and if I become unhappy I will use the democratic process to try and put my views across. By all means express your views in open forum, ideally to the lawmakers if you wish to see a change in procedure. Back in the UK you have the ideal opportunity next month.
I'm no angel by the way; last week I received a document from the equivalent of the local constabulary certifying that my tiny J10 is capable of 90 kph. I was obliged to pay 50 Brunei dollars for the privilege, as I happened to be in an area where the limit is 80 kph. That's the law, I broke it, I paid the penalty. The only way I'll change the law in THIS country is by personal appeal to one man - which system do you prefer to live under?
Guest
Posts: n/a
vfr,
I notice that you often refer to police 'helio' teams. The only Helio I can easily find on the net, the Courier (1953 design much loved by Air America and other interesting organisations, a sort of mini Piston Porter) is pictured below. That is, if I've followed the instructions from fellow PPRuNers correctly...
Not too many of those in the UK police aviation business.
I don't know why the Army and RAF abbreviate (such a long word...) helicopter to 'heli', while the Andrew prefer 'helo'.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by Thud_and_Blunder (edited 09 May 2001).]
I notice that you often refer to police 'helio' teams. The only Helio I can easily find on the net, the Courier (1953 design much loved by Air America and other interesting organisations, a sort of mini Piston Porter) is pictured below. That is, if I've followed the instructions from fellow PPRuNers correctly...
Not too many of those in the UK police aviation business.
I don't know why the Army and RAF abbreviate (such a long word...) helicopter to 'heli', while the Andrew prefer 'helo'.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by Thud_and_Blunder (edited 09 May 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
's funny, it worked first time...
Anyone going to tell me how to include pictures so they show up every time? I typed [img], left no space between that and the url then put [/img] with no space again. You can always click on the properties of the little red X picture to see what I was trying to download, I suppose.
ho hum
Anyone going to tell me how to include pictures so they show up every time? I typed [img], left no space between that and the url then put [/img] with no space again. You can always click on the properties of the little red X picture to see what I was trying to download, I suppose.
ho hum