Value of Police Helicopter Support Confirmed
Guest
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Hoverbovver: thanks for that, nice to know we are appreciated!
VFR: Normally, the question arises, comparing helos with alternative ground based options. It is important to remember that airborne ops are 'supplemental to and not instead of' what is already in place. I hope it is here to stay. One cannot ignore the beancounters and their theories! As Multp stated we are very strictly regulated and, I hasten to add monitored. My periodical checks consist of the foll, to name but a few: 2 x base check(OPC), 1 x line check, 1 x emergency and survival check, 2 x medical (class 1), abandon aircraft check, firedrills, dunker drills, crew resource management courses, special ops check (NVG).
The system works, we really do have an effect on crime, be it: reduction of car thefts, containing a scene of crime area, control and command, hydroponics factories, etc. My additional role as HEMS operator impacts on the statistics for: missing vunerable persons, immediate response to accidents (golden hour), searching etc.
The main problem is advertising these roles: I wouldn't wish any of you to be in the position where you need to be on the receiving end of our services!!!!
I wish the Air Ambulance world had the same support from the home office/gov't/NHS, though..it's very tough for them.
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Thermal runaway.
[This message has been edited by Thomas coupling (edited 04 April 2001).]
VFR: Normally, the question arises, comparing helos with alternative ground based options. It is important to remember that airborne ops are 'supplemental to and not instead of' what is already in place. I hope it is here to stay. One cannot ignore the beancounters and their theories! As Multp stated we are very strictly regulated and, I hasten to add monitored. My periodical checks consist of the foll, to name but a few: 2 x base check(OPC), 1 x line check, 1 x emergency and survival check, 2 x medical (class 1), abandon aircraft check, firedrills, dunker drills, crew resource management courses, special ops check (NVG).
The system works, we really do have an effect on crime, be it: reduction of car thefts, containing a scene of crime area, control and command, hydroponics factories, etc. My additional role as HEMS operator impacts on the statistics for: missing vunerable persons, immediate response to accidents (golden hour), searching etc.
The main problem is advertising these roles: I wouldn't wish any of you to be in the position where you need to be on the receiving end of our services!!!!
I wish the Air Ambulance world had the same support from the home office/gov't/NHS, though..it's very tough for them.
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Thermal runaway.
[This message has been edited by Thomas coupling (edited 04 April 2001).]
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OBERON
Thanks for your very interesting, and informative, post. I learnt a lot.
BTW, I didn't mention 'Plods'. A case of mistaken identity?
I suspect people refer to policemen in such disrespectful terms because the only contact most of us have with police is as victims of the arrogant morons in traffic police.
Re Funding
I'd have much more sympathy for police complaints about shortage of money if they didn't waste so much money and manpower on unimportant things.
Thanks for your very interesting, and informative, post. I learnt a lot.
BTW, I didn't mention 'Plods'. A case of mistaken identity?
I suspect people refer to policemen in such disrespectful terms because the only contact most of us have with police is as victims of the arrogant morons in traffic police.
Re Funding
I'd have much more sympathy for police complaints about shortage of money if they didn't waste so much money and manpower on unimportant things.
Guest
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Good Morning Chaps,
Thomas Coupling, how nice of you to answer some of the query's, without the need to sink into the morass of judging the GCSE ability of us mere flying types, as the previous comments of others have said, you are in a service that needs to become 100% able to be nice to people unless they are the "Blaggers", painfully this is a big uphill battle, as your own previous sarcasim has shown, but it is really nice to see that you will answer in a genuine way,thank you, I still think the Ambulance service and the Police should share a greater pot of funding and fly together with the Ambulance service taking priority over crime!!
Thomas Coupling, how nice of you to answer some of the query's, without the need to sink into the morass of judging the GCSE ability of us mere flying types, as the previous comments of others have said, you are in a service that needs to become 100% able to be nice to people unless they are the "Blaggers", painfully this is a big uphill battle, as your own previous sarcasim has shown, but it is really nice to see that you will answer in a genuine way,thank you, I still think the Ambulance service and the Police should share a greater pot of funding and fly together with the Ambulance service taking priority over crime!!
Guest
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VFR: it wasn't "..us mere flying types..." whatever that means, .....just you!!
You touched on an evocative issue there about joint ops between the ambulance trusts and police ops. It will never happen because the demands of each are so diverse. Chasing a vehicle with armed bank robbers carries as much if not more precedence than breaking off that job and diverting to a serious RTA....does it not?
Nr Fairy: Are you sure about the Wiltshire police helo giving precedence to the ambulance authority?? News to me.....
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Thermal runaway.
You touched on an evocative issue there about joint ops between the ambulance trusts and police ops. It will never happen because the demands of each are so diverse. Chasing a vehicle with armed bank robbers carries as much if not more precedence than breaking off that job and diverting to a serious RTA....does it not?
Nr Fairy: Are you sure about the Wiltshire police helo giving precedence to the ambulance authority?? News to me.....
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Thermal runaway.
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Thomas coupling
"It will never happen"
It's already happening in Sussex, Wiltshire and (I believe) North Wales.
Certainly in Sussex there has never been a conflict of interest in tasking the helicopter.
I don't know how well it would work in other parts of the country. There is no doubt of the value of Police and Ambulance helicopters and it is great to see the Police getting more funding but how about something from Government for the Ambulances? Most members of the public are amazed that Air Ambulances have to rely totally on charity, yet MPs love to be photographed next to their local helicopter.
Oh well, there's always the Blue Peter appeal this year.
"It will never happen"
It's already happening in Sussex, Wiltshire and (I believe) North Wales.
Certainly in Sussex there has never been a conflict of interest in tasking the helicopter.
I don't know how well it would work in other parts of the country. There is no doubt of the value of Police and Ambulance helicopters and it is great to see the Police getting more funding but how about something from Government for the Ambulances? Most members of the public are amazed that Air Ambulances have to rely totally on charity, yet MPs love to be photographed next to their local helicopter.
Oh well, there's always the Blue Peter appeal this year.
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Thomas Coupling,
See, there you go again, bad attitude, neg vibes, are you new replacement for PC Plod in the Panda,Stopping little ole ladies in their Metro's, come on tell us that you dont realy care to help your injured fellow man, that you would like only to be chasing " Armed robbers in a car", sad situation I thought that you had seen the light , and decided to be nice, guess I was wrong, but one question , did you ever drive a Panda?
See, there you go again, bad attitude, neg vibes, are you new replacement for PC Plod in the Panda,Stopping little ole ladies in their Metro's, come on tell us that you dont realy care to help your injured fellow man, that you would like only to be chasing " Armed robbers in a car", sad situation I thought that you had seen the light , and decided to be nice, guess I was wrong, but one question , did you ever drive a Panda?
Guest
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Altymeter, Sorry I attributed, mistakenly, the comment re Plod to you and thank you for your thank you. I personally would like to see the Air Ambulance service being fully funded by Government but, as they seem to be determined to run down the NHS in even the basic service areas, I can't see it happening no matter which party is in power.
It is true that some police forces and Ambulance trusts do join services and fly in the same aircraft but I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that smaller County Police Forces can only afford to run an Air Unit by finding joint funding from elsewhere. I am sure the same can be said of the Ambulance Trusts who share the aircraft with police. Who knows, perhaps one day the politically inept leaders of this country will get their act together, sort out their priorities and begin to give all the emergency services the funding and manpower they require to do the job required of them without putting their staff at risk. As for the comment within this topic about the emergency services spending their money wisely, the force budget is controlled by the Police Authority who have the right of censure over spending proposed by the Chief Constable. As they receive no training and are very often swayed by the forcefulness of the local Chief Constable, who knows what they will spend their money on?
It is true that some police forces and Ambulance trusts do join services and fly in the same aircraft but I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that smaller County Police Forces can only afford to run an Air Unit by finding joint funding from elsewhere. I am sure the same can be said of the Ambulance Trusts who share the aircraft with police. Who knows, perhaps one day the politically inept leaders of this country will get their act together, sort out their priorities and begin to give all the emergency services the funding and manpower they require to do the job required of them without putting their staff at risk. As for the comment within this topic about the emergency services spending their money wisely, the force budget is controlled by the Police Authority who have the right of censure over spending proposed by the Chief Constable. As they receive no training and are very often swayed by the forcefulness of the local Chief Constable, who knows what they will spend their money on?
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Vfrpilotpb
I don't know why you persist in making provocative personal remarks to one contributor. Perhaps there's a history? I don't know, or care.
Please stop - before you provoke a reaction which might spoil this interesting (and informative) discussion.
[This message has been edited by Heliport (edited 05 April 2001).]
I don't know why you persist in making provocative personal remarks to one contributor. Perhaps there's a history? I don't know, or care.
Please stop - before you provoke a reaction which might spoil this interesting (and informative) discussion.
[This message has been edited by Heliport (edited 05 April 2001).]
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TC :
The last info I had, when they were flying their BO105, was that this was the case. The ASU, behind Police HQ in Devizes, houses the pilot, police observer and a paramedic who all go up together. It may have changed since they've got their flash Explorer. Maybe I'll have to pay another visit and contribute to the Air Ambulance Fund again.
The last info I had, when they were flying their BO105, was that this was the case. The ASU, behind Police HQ in Devizes, houses the pilot, police observer and a paramedic who all go up together. It may have changed since they've got their flash Explorer. Maybe I'll have to pay another visit and contribute to the Air Ambulance Fund again.
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Heliport, sorry that my comments seem to cause some grief, but my maxim in life is do unto others as they do to me, I may be a rank bad person when it comes to putting words into their correct grammatical order, but I do not need some self important jockey to make personal attacks on my lack of ability in the setting out of messages, so to you and all the other Ppruners I will apologise, but I will not be kicked and do nothing. These annonymous contributors have all made personnal comments about my messages,Helimut has even used my profile to formulate a childish message, so perhaps you will also have a go at them also! Eyeinthesky,Helimut and Thomas Coupling. or is Pprune just for the likes of this type?
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Vfrpilotpb
I did realise there's a history but, whatever is in the past is best left there, not dragged up again when it might spoil a good discussion. Two of those you mention haven't even contributed to this thread. The other has, as you pointed out, answered in a friendly and reasonable way - despite your two shots.
Back to the topic:
You've raised some interesting points.
If you don't think a 'normal Plod' should decide when to 'scramble', who should decide?
If it was a combined Police/Ambulance air support unit, who would you have deciding which of two competing calls should get priority?
Or would the ambulance call always ge given priority, regardless of the circumstances?
I did realise there's a history but, whatever is in the past is best left there, not dragged up again when it might spoil a good discussion. Two of those you mention haven't even contributed to this thread. The other has, as you pointed out, answered in a friendly and reasonable way - despite your two shots.
Back to the topic:
You've raised some interesting points.
If you don't think a 'normal Plod' should decide when to 'scramble', who should decide?
If it was a combined Police/Ambulance air support unit, who would you have deciding which of two competing calls should get priority?
Or would the ambulance call always ge given priority, regardless of the circumstances?
Guest
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Sorry, I haven't explained myself properly!! What I meant to say was this: Of the 37 police forces in the country, only 3 provide a dual purpose (Wilts / Sussex and N Wales...police and HEMS) the others are pure police. Tose 3 I mentioned are partially funded (less than 25%) by the Ambulance trust. It is therefore always going to be primarily a police vehicle. Obviously, should conflict for a call out occur, then it will be dealt with in a humane and logical manner but 9 times out of 10, the police will have precedence. I think what VFR was describing was where joint custody of the a/c was 50/50 between the police authority and the Ambulance trust...now this would be an area for conflict, I suspect....that is why it will "never happen". Think of the interested parties: Ambulance trust / police authority / NAAAS / health authority / charities involved, etc. The unit would sink in a morass of bureaucracy!!!
Best left as is, methinks Charitable air support for the air ambulance (because it is an emmotive issue) and Home Office funding for the police (so that the gov't can keep a firm grip on them!!).
Air ambulance cost on average between £60,000 and £80,000 / month to run...a very expensive proposition for any gov't dept to take on, eh?
Sorry for the confusion..
Better behave...heliport is watching!!
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Thermal runaway.
Best left as is, methinks Charitable air support for the air ambulance (because it is an emmotive issue) and Home Office funding for the police (so that the gov't can keep a firm grip on them!!).
Air ambulance cost on average between £60,000 and £80,000 / month to run...a very expensive proposition for any gov't dept to take on, eh?
Sorry for the confusion..
Better behave...heliport is watching!!
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Thermal runaway.
Guest
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TC and all, ther should be no conflict.
the primary aim of all policemen is to protect life. A quick analogy
A policemen chasing an armed robber comes across (dirty b**tard) a victim with severe gunshot wounds. He is the only man there
does he stay with the victim and try to save his life or continue the chase....
And for VFR of course the policeman makes the decision to go/ not go it a police aircraft. The pilot is just the driver!
the primary aim of all policemen is to protect life. A quick analogy
A policemen chasing an armed robber comes across (dirty b**tard) a victim with severe gunshot wounds. He is the only man there
does he stay with the victim and try to save his life or continue the chase....
And for VFR of course the policeman makes the decision to go/ not go it a police aircraft. The pilot is just the driver!
Guest
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Good Morning People,
I hope I will not offfend, but as one who gives monthly to the local Air Ambulance funds,and as some one who has a connection with Helios I cannot understand why we in the UK give Gov funding thru the Police budget system to allow the Police effective random use, forgive that word Random for we as Joe pub never see or hear why the Police Helio was buzzing round (unless its to show car chases on the TV)all we are told is that the Helio has arrested two "Blaggers"
well it seems hard to see how, when the most of the time the poilce Helio never lands, only at the most unusual scene of crime! but the Hems Helio has to be funded thru public and Corporate gifts, I know that I am sticking my neck out, but it seems that despite the " GOlden Hour" ability of the Hems Helio's the Gov both Lab/con by their funding only of Police Helio's are seeming to be grossly unfair in backing Heli'o for high profile in crime , and ignoring the desparate needs of ill and seriously injured people, My sons life was saved by the ability of the local hems Helio team( he broke his back in an aviation incident) it pains me to think had it not been for the AA and public donations that Helicopter would not have been available, the way to look at this is to ask who is more important, a crim
in a stolen vehicle, or a seriously injured child/man/woman , lets see what some of the Police pilots think, for they are the only Gov funded Pilots in touch with every day happenings, My Regards
I hope I will not offfend, but as one who gives monthly to the local Air Ambulance funds,and as some one who has a connection with Helios I cannot understand why we in the UK give Gov funding thru the Police budget system to allow the Police effective random use, forgive that word Random for we as Joe pub never see or hear why the Police Helio was buzzing round (unless its to show car chases on the TV)all we are told is that the Helio has arrested two "Blaggers"
well it seems hard to see how, when the most of the time the poilce Helio never lands, only at the most unusual scene of crime! but the Hems Helio has to be funded thru public and Corporate gifts, I know that I am sticking my neck out, but it seems that despite the " GOlden Hour" ability of the Hems Helio's the Gov both Lab/con by their funding only of Police Helio's are seeming to be grossly unfair in backing Heli'o for high profile in crime , and ignoring the desparate needs of ill and seriously injured people, My sons life was saved by the ability of the local hems Helio team( he broke his back in an aviation incident) it pains me to think had it not been for the AA and public donations that Helicopter would not have been available, the way to look at this is to ask who is more important, a crim
in a stolen vehicle, or a seriously injured child/man/woman , lets see what some of the Police pilots think, for they are the only Gov funded Pilots in touch with every day happenings, My Regards
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To VFR
There are two sides to every story, before continuing I agree that the gov should fund both Air Ambulance and Police Helis,but if it is a dual ops heli the problem will always be of split responsibilities, who is most important?.Im sure if you are in need of medical attention then you would say air ambulance, but if your someone had just been shot by an armed robber and the robber possesed the power to harm more ??? Or the joyriders who are in most cases worse than a burglar as they cause injury and destruction on a daily basis?
I think you are missing the point slightly of the police helo, they don't actually land and intervene (mostly) they provide a tracking and co ordination role for the ground troops and are very, very effective.
I do deal with our local police helo team on a daily basis, and believe me they always have to have a very good reason to go on task, and are controlled by the area force anyway, because thats who provides the budget.
I am not arguing with you on the air ambulance front, as they are of equal importance,but give thwe police helo teams a break!
Regards
hoverbover
There are two sides to every story, before continuing I agree that the gov should fund both Air Ambulance and Police Helis,but if it is a dual ops heli the problem will always be of split responsibilities, who is most important?.Im sure if you are in need of medical attention then you would say air ambulance, but if your someone had just been shot by an armed robber and the robber possesed the power to harm more ??? Or the joyriders who are in most cases worse than a burglar as they cause injury and destruction on a daily basis?
I think you are missing the point slightly of the police helo, they don't actually land and intervene (mostly) they provide a tracking and co ordination role for the ground troops and are very, very effective.
I do deal with our local police helo team on a daily basis, and believe me they always have to have a very good reason to go on task, and are controlled by the area force anyway, because thats who provides the budget.
I am not arguing with you on the air ambulance front, as they are of equal importance,but give thwe police helo teams a break!
Regards
hoverbover
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To heliport, Thank you for your comments, you are right, I can be a little abrasive to some, and on my first posting this am I forgot to thank you.
Hoverbover, I am not really haveing a go at the Police Helio teams, I am just probing to see what other's think, I know that it is important to the Police to be able to have every wepon(so to speak ) in their armoury to fight crime,and my opinions are that I feel sometimes there is Overkill in the way the Police go about things, but I feel that injured and seriously ill human beings should take total priority over crime, the problem is we can talk this to death, really the solution lies with central Government and whether they feel that it would be a vote catcher! any way thank you also , this is a good thread and I am sorry if I went of track ( stick with my GPS next time eh)
My regards
Hoverbover, I am not really haveing a go at the Police Helio teams, I am just probing to see what other's think, I know that it is important to the Police to be able to have every wepon(so to speak ) in their armoury to fight crime,and my opinions are that I feel sometimes there is Overkill in the way the Police go about things, but I feel that injured and seriously ill human beings should take total priority over crime, the problem is we can talk this to death, really the solution lies with central Government and whether they feel that it would be a vote catcher! any way thank you also , this is a good thread and I am sorry if I went of track ( stick with my GPS next time eh)
My regards
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Did I read this right? OK, I admit to not reading all of this thread but Thomas Coupling has stated that at Units such as Sussex and Wilts "should conflict for a call out occur, then it will be dealt with in a humane and logical manner but 9 times out of 10, the police will have precedence". I flew for both of these Units for several years and NEVER did the Police take precedence on a call out. In response to every call people came first! The pilot is not merely a driver airframe but an integrated member of the crew. The policeman may have operational control but in many cases will ask the entire crew for their input. This does not show weakness on the part of the policeman but a mature attitude towards CRM which must be encouraged!.
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Vfrpilotpb
I don't disagree with you about the valuable role played by air ambulance helicopters, although I have heard criticism that the London air ambulance is sometimes used when an ordinary ambulance would be adequate. (I'm not in a position to know whether that is a fair criticism.)
I know a little more about the work of Police helicopters and, you do seem to under-estimate the importance of their role.
They are effective in preventing crime, and apprehending criminals who might otherwise escape. Apologies if I've misunderstood, but I have the impression you don't attach much importance to this aspect. Don't forget that damage done to victims of crime can sometimes last much longer than it takes broken bones to heal.
Helicopters are also more efficient, and more cost-effective in many other police tasks which would take up enormous manpower, and take far too long, if carried out by officers on the ground. In my experience, the comments posted by Letsby, Oberon and TC bear are correct.
I draw a major distinction between helping to catch so-called "joyriders" in stolen vehicles (usually young inexperienced drivers who might seriously injure or kill when trying to escape from a pursuing police car), and using air support to catch ordinary motorists speeding. The percentage of speeding motorists who crash is so small, and the offence so minor, that the cost is not justified; the police waste far too much money on trapping motorists already.
Thomas coupling
You say
Why do you say air ambulance support is an emotive issue? In what respect?
Although Vfrpilotpb doesn't appear to be the greatest fan of Police helicopter support, he makes good points about the value of air ambulances.
Why aren't you in favour of government funding for both?
[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 06 April 2001).]
I don't disagree with you about the valuable role played by air ambulance helicopters, although I have heard criticism that the London air ambulance is sometimes used when an ordinary ambulance would be adequate. (I'm not in a position to know whether that is a fair criticism.)
I know a little more about the work of Police helicopters and, you do seem to under-estimate the importance of their role.
They are effective in preventing crime, and apprehending criminals who might otherwise escape. Apologies if I've misunderstood, but I have the impression you don't attach much importance to this aspect. Don't forget that damage done to victims of crime can sometimes last much longer than it takes broken bones to heal.
Helicopters are also more efficient, and more cost-effective in many other police tasks which would take up enormous manpower, and take far too long, if carried out by officers on the ground. In my experience, the comments posted by Letsby, Oberon and TC bear are correct.
I draw a major distinction between helping to catch so-called "joyriders" in stolen vehicles (usually young inexperienced drivers who might seriously injure or kill when trying to escape from a pursuing police car), and using air support to catch ordinary motorists speeding. The percentage of speeding motorists who crash is so small, and the offence so minor, that the cost is not justified; the police waste far too much money on trapping motorists already.
Thomas coupling
You say
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">"Best left as is, methinks Charitable air support for the air ambulance (because it is an emmotive issue) and Home Office funding for the police (so that the gov't can keep a firm grip on them!!)."[</font>
Although Vfrpilotpb doesn't appear to be the greatest fan of Police helicopter support, he makes good points about the value of air ambulances.
Why aren't you in favour of government funding for both?
[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 06 April 2001).]