Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind (Merged)
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Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind (Merged)
a word for word email, i'm sorry it's come to this, but maybe it'll help others from making the mistake I did.
Dear ...........
This is email is written to ask you to complete the final payment left outstanding from my tuition fees from 2 months ago. The outstanding amount is 800 pounds plus my account fee of 25 which I incured having gone overdrawn after a promise was made to pay me prior to going on holiday. If this final payment has not been settled within 10 days you leave me no choice but to persue the payment through the small claims court at Biscester and I will be obliged to inform the CAA. I hope, in all sincereity that it doesn't come to that.
Steve Francis
Hi Steve,
we have already paid you an extra £50 as this was the amount you previously informed me your bank had charged you for going overdrawn when you went on holiday. I presume, therefore, that I can deduct £25 from the outstanding amount and we therefore owe you £775.
As stated before, we will pay you as soon as we have the money, and this is still the case. We have no intention of not settling the bill in full. You have to accept that companies are not always able to pay within 30 days due to circumstances beyond their control: this is certainly the case when I am working freelance and there have been occasions when I have waited more than 120 days to be paid.
If you want to take us to court thatıs up to you but you wonıt get your money any faster; we canıt pay what we donıt have
Kind regards,
Dear ...........
This is email is written to ask you to complete the final payment left outstanding from my tuition fees from 2 months ago. The outstanding amount is 800 pounds plus my account fee of 25 which I incured having gone overdrawn after a promise was made to pay me prior to going on holiday. If this final payment has not been settled within 10 days you leave me no choice but to persue the payment through the small claims court at Biscester and I will be obliged to inform the CAA. I hope, in all sincereity that it doesn't come to that.
Steve Francis
Hi Steve,
we have already paid you an extra £50 as this was the amount you previously informed me your bank had charged you for going overdrawn when you went on holiday. I presume, therefore, that I can deduct £25 from the outstanding amount and we therefore owe you £775.
As stated before, we will pay you as soon as we have the money, and this is still the case. We have no intention of not settling the bill in full. You have to accept that companies are not always able to pay within 30 days due to circumstances beyond their control: this is certainly the case when I am working freelance and there have been occasions when I have waited more than 120 days to be paid.
If you want to take us to court thatıs up to you but you wonıt get your money any faster; we canıt pay what we donıt have
Kind regards,
Hovering AND talking
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Not quite sure who is whom in this (and perhaps that's a good thing before this thread gets pulled) BUT
it is illegal to use the excuse "pay when paid". The supplier has a statutory right to charge interest now. If a company does not have the cash to pay it's debts then it is trading illegally and can be wound up.
A Winding-Up petition (under Insolvency Act 1986 - can't remember the section number after a couple of glasses of merlot) can be made to the Courts where a debt (or total of debts) is greater than £800. This means, that unless the Limited Company can demonstrate that it can pay it's debts and has another dispute with the supplier, then the court can deem the company to be trading illegally and issue a Compulsory Winding-Up Order. Basically, the company will be liquidated.
Whoever wrote the latter part of the e-mail is treading on very dodgy ground. It is not the supplier's problem that there is no cash. The debtor should seek further overdraft funds from the bank or the directors/shareholders should put more capital into the company to raise funds (issue of shares/debentures/long term loans) or seek to find further investors.
Of course, this would require a sound business plan and if overdrafts have already been increased, then a bank might be reluctant to extend.
If the second correspondent has any issue with what I've written, please feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Whirls (ACA!)
it is illegal to use the excuse "pay when paid". The supplier has a statutory right to charge interest now. If a company does not have the cash to pay it's debts then it is trading illegally and can be wound up.
A Winding-Up petition (under Insolvency Act 1986 - can't remember the section number after a couple of glasses of merlot) can be made to the Courts where a debt (or total of debts) is greater than £800. This means, that unless the Limited Company can demonstrate that it can pay it's debts and has another dispute with the supplier, then the court can deem the company to be trading illegally and issue a Compulsory Winding-Up Order. Basically, the company will be liquidated.
Whoever wrote the latter part of the e-mail is treading on very dodgy ground. It is not the supplier's problem that there is no cash. The debtor should seek further overdraft funds from the bank or the directors/shareholders should put more capital into the company to raise funds (issue of shares/debentures/long term loans) or seek to find further investors.
Of course, this would require a sound business plan and if overdrafts have already been increased, then a bank might be reluctant to extend.
If the second correspondent has any issue with what I've written, please feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Whirls (ACA!)
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Actually, that rather reminds me of the time a friend of mine issued a winding up order on BT for non payment of debts (but that's another story).
As a supplier to Dragon, I would have to say they have been consistently the BEST payer of all commercial and flying schools I've ever traded with.
h-r
As a supplier to Dragon, I would have to say they have been consistently the BEST payer of all commercial and flying schools I've ever traded with.
h-r
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The secret is in the contract and persistent pestering for payment of invoices from the date of issue (usually within 3 minutes of the service being delivered).
Smiling at the phone when asking for the money is quite helpful as well. Sets the tone as friendly but firm.
Luck? Nein! Pluck? Ja!
h-r
Smiling at the phone when asking for the money is quite helpful as well. Sets the tone as friendly but firm.
Luck? Nein! Pluck? Ja!
h-r
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I was an instructor for them, the first letter is me writing to them, the second is their reply to me.
I certainly did all that helicopter redeye, alas being nice this time hasn't helped, so I have no choice but to let the courts help me. It was actually very easy to do online. Time for bed now.
I certainly did all that helicopter redeye, alas being nice this time hasn't helped, so I have no choice but to let the courts help me. It was actually very easy to do online. Time for bed now.
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pugzi,
At least you got an honest answer, if not a fair deal. Many won't even bother to explain their situation, at least in the States. Going to court is surely justified, of course. Good luck.
At least you got an honest answer, if not a fair deal. Many won't even bother to explain their situation, at least in the States. Going to court is surely justified, of course. Good luck.
Pugzi: dont forget to charge them everything when it goes to small claims court:
In addition to your fone/paper/postage costs etc:
1. daily interest accruing on full amount.
And the best:
2. your charges for taking the day off to go to court. That normally wakes them up when they see what they will have to pay in the end.
Thank goodness for small claims courts eh?
Good luck and lets hope word gets out about Dragon before Heliport pulls the accused names from the thread!
In addition to your fone/paper/postage costs etc:
1. daily interest accruing on full amount.
And the best:
2. your charges for taking the day off to go to court. That normally wakes them up when they see what they will have to pay in the end.
Thank goodness for small claims courts eh?
Good luck and lets hope word gets out about Dragon before Heliport pulls the accused names from the thread!
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pugzi,
Don't feel terrible. It's only business. You deserve to get paid for the services you provided. You are completely entitled and expected to take all reasonable actions to protect your own interests.
You could be viewed as a wimp if you did not persue your debtors with with every means available to you.
Don't make this personal. Hopefully, with a satisfactory resolution to this situation, the persons responsible will not view you in any other light than that of being a level headed businessman and pilot.
Don't feel terrible. It's only business. You deserve to get paid for the services you provided. You are completely entitled and expected to take all reasonable actions to protect your own interests.
You could be viewed as a wimp if you did not persue your debtors with with every means available to you.
Don't make this personal. Hopefully, with a satisfactory resolution to this situation, the persons responsible will not view you in any other light than that of being a level headed businessman and pilot.
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Hell hath no fury like a flight instructor scorned!
I think Kissmysquirrel said it best with:
"Just remember, most small schools will shaft you at the first opportunity.
Unless you can find work with a respectable, reputable company, my advice now is don't bother unless you want to be treated like sh*t!!
Don't work for one man band outfits out of portacabins, too many used car salesmen type people think they can run heli businesses when they couldn't run sh*t."
I think Kissmysquirrel said it best with:
"Just remember, most small schools will shaft you at the first opportunity.
Unless you can find work with a respectable, reputable company, my advice now is don't bother unless you want to be treated like sh*t!!
Don't work for one man band outfits out of portacabins, too many used car salesmen type people think they can run heli businesses when they couldn't run sh*t."
Hovering AND talking
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But the costs under Small Claims Court are fixed as is the formula for calculating interest (or they certainly were the last time I did one!). Those fixed costs are added to the claim. Since a small claim involves very little work and it can all be done by the claimant, these costs will contra.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
If you add the costs you incur to a final figure and make that figure the claim figure and win - you'll get all of that back. Did it with...***.. and they had to pay for a days release from work!
Hovering AND talking
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I'm surprised this thread has lasted so long to be honest! I don't think there is much to be gained by naming and shaming hence my offer to this company to give them some advice on how to manage their cash flow and what their legal position is.
It could have sufficed to ask what are the best steps in getting a debtor to pay in which case many of the answers would have been the same.
Cheers
Whirls
It could have sufficed to ask what are the best steps in getting a debtor to pay in which case many of the answers would have been the same.
Cheers
Whirls
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Your right Whirlgig, i didn't have to name and shame, but I was upset and didn't want others, especially students to suffer what I have. But mainly I think I did it because I was upset and I wanted to upset them too I suppose. Revenge is never a good thing I know, but alas it's done. I have calmed down now. Would I have still done it, maybe, I'm not sure.
And kissmysquirrel, thanks for the support, you can be my lawyer anytime
And kissmysquirrel, thanks for the support, you can be my lawyer anytime
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Naming and shaming is not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully those responsible (and anybody else in the industry) will think twice before doing the same (or similar) again.
Self regulation - makes the whole industry more professional.
Self regulation - makes the whole industry more professional.
Hovering AND talking
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To be honest, I'm not sure it does come across as professional. This is a very small world and pugzi has identified his real name. Some operators may respect him for what he's done but others may not. I'm not talking about the act of taking a school to the Small Claims Court (which, without knowing the full facts, without prejudice etc, was the right thing to do) but publicly announcing it on this forum. I know of a couple of Chief Pilots who read but don't post so you never know who's looking.
Just to play Devil's Advocaat here, we only have pugzi's word that that was the verbatim e-mails sent and received. We haven't heard Dragon's side and there may be a dispute so we none of us should be quick to judge.
I do think the course of action is correct and Pugzi, when you get a cheque from them, take a photocopy so that if they do it again, you can ask the courts for a Garnishee Order (great fun they are!) whereby the courts can take the money out of the acocunt - if they have it.
This operator is a new outfit so appropriate checks such as Companies House filing of Statutory Accounts will not yield much. But, for future, it is worth checking out Companies House for any new customer. You will need the full name and/or number which should be on the bottom of their letterhead (if they are a Limited Company). If it isn't, that's breaking Companies Act 85. Online this only costs about a fiver compared with Dun & Bradstreet or Experian reports which are upwards of £30 a pop. If you are serious about dealing with a particular organisation, then I would recommend D&B.
Cheers
Whirls
Just to play Devil's Advocaat here, we only have pugzi's word that that was the verbatim e-mails sent and received. We haven't heard Dragon's side and there may be a dispute so we none of us should be quick to judge.
I do think the course of action is correct and Pugzi, when you get a cheque from them, take a photocopy so that if they do it again, you can ask the courts for a Garnishee Order (great fun they are!) whereby the courts can take the money out of the acocunt - if they have it.
This operator is a new outfit so appropriate checks such as Companies House filing of Statutory Accounts will not yield much. But, for future, it is worth checking out Companies House for any new customer. You will need the full name and/or number which should be on the bottom of their letterhead (if they are a Limited Company). If it isn't, that's breaking Companies Act 85. Online this only costs about a fiver compared with Dun & Bradstreet or Experian reports which are upwards of £30 a pop. If you are serious about dealing with a particular organisation, then I would recommend D&B.
Cheers
Whirls