Flying Offshore at Night
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Special 25,
If you & other professionals using this forum believe there is a problem with operations to helidecks at night then file an MOR or alternatively complete the insert in your CHIRP newsletter.
The more inputs there are to CHIRP the more CAA/SRG will have to take a pro-active (don't hold your breath) stance instead of just pushing out questionnaires which are then conveniently filed to gather dust.
airspeed alive
If you & other professionals using this forum believe there is a problem with operations to helidecks at night then file an MOR or alternatively complete the insert in your CHIRP newsletter.
The more inputs there are to CHIRP the more CAA/SRG will have to take a pro-active (don't hold your breath) stance instead of just pushing out questionnaires which are then conveniently filed to gather dust.
airspeed alive
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Does anyone know of a visual approach slope indicator (VASI) that is designed for use on jack-up rigs? The problem of course is that the direction of the approach path is not fixed, it is variable being dependant upon wind direction at the time. The unit would have to be pointed in the right direction (down wind) by the HLO, or it would need to show glide path indications throughout a very wide azimuth.
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The main problem is not Jack-ups but small NUI's (normally unmanned" installations. These are small.....sometimes monopods with a helideck on top and often many miles from any other platforms. On dark grotty nights there are no other visual clues apart from one circle of lights. Nothing else around.
Occasionally even the most experienced crews have to work hard to keep disorientation at bay during an approach.
I enjoy night flying and spend much of the winter doing it but there are times in certain weathers that I don't look forward to the evening shuttles.
Occasionally even the most experienced crews have to work hard to keep disorientation at bay during an approach.
I enjoy night flying and spend much of the winter doing it but there are times in certain weathers that I don't look forward to the evening shuttles.
Does anyone else wonder what all the fuss is with this topic?
It reminds me why getting away from Offshore is a good thing. Not enough flying and too much time to think of things to worry and complain about.
The call for automated approaches to rigs at night seems great but why take away the only flying the autopilot lets these guys do?
I also cannot see why a trained pro would not relish the night approach and find it a doddle. Really it is.. face it, you know generally where the wind is, you are over the ocean (ie: flat), there are no wires, you know the orientation of the pad and platform, it is brighter than the sun, the radalt reads off your exact clearance from the planet, the radar paints the target, you have another pilot there to help and all you have to do is fly a constant angle, controlled rate of decent into a defined landing area. WHAT's THE ISSUE?
If it is an issue and concerning, I think a shift down to the slabwing operators might be in store.
But think! you might have to fly single pilot night approach on a back course ILS, without a working weather radar and TS in the vicinity to minimums at 3am in a grotty old Chieftain.... yuk!
ho hum...back to the tent and drill.
It reminds me why getting away from Offshore is a good thing. Not enough flying and too much time to think of things to worry and complain about.
The call for automated approaches to rigs at night seems great but why take away the only flying the autopilot lets these guys do?
I also cannot see why a trained pro would not relish the night approach and find it a doddle. Really it is.. face it, you know generally where the wind is, you are over the ocean (ie: flat), there are no wires, you know the orientation of the pad and platform, it is brighter than the sun, the radalt reads off your exact clearance from the planet, the radar paints the target, you have another pilot there to help and all you have to do is fly a constant angle, controlled rate of decent into a defined landing area. WHAT's THE ISSUE?
If it is an issue and concerning, I think a shift down to the slabwing operators might be in store.
But think! you might have to fly single pilot night approach on a back course ILS, without a working weather radar and TS in the vicinity to minimums at 3am in a grotty old Chieftain.... yuk!
ho hum...back to the tent and drill.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Totally agree with you Steve!
Was just waiting for you to post your thoughts to save myself the hassle of writing it all!!!
Nobody complains about night flying here... so, not all offshore pilots do... probably cause were too busy flying our ... off.
Have to go fly my late afternoon trip in the dark now...
Was just waiting for you to post your thoughts to save myself the hassle of writing it all!!!
Nobody complains about night flying here... so, not all offshore pilots do... probably cause were too busy flying our ... off.
Have to go fly my late afternoon trip in the dark now...
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What ever happened to the Firefly night approach lighting system that was developed years ago?
Variable azimuth and elevation that gave the standard flashing green, green, red and flashing red lights, could be pre-set for any number of different approach directions.... Could be controlled from the cockpit via a simple keypad through the radio.
Seemed to be an ideal solution.
Anybody ever use it?
Variable azimuth and elevation that gave the standard flashing green, green, red and flashing red lights, could be pre-set for any number of different approach directions.... Could be controlled from the cockpit via a simple keypad through the radio.
Seemed to be an ideal solution.
Anybody ever use it?
Hey hey Galapagos!
The North Sea is a millpond compared to where you blokes fly. How are those 70kt winds and the freezing fog?
Not nearly as hard as the landing light approach into Southampton at 2am with only one light and BA as your cojoe ... now that is hazardous!
Set the OBS to the inbound track please and look out for the towers
HEY! and there is nobody wandering across the pad on late finals either!!!
Ha!
The North Sea is a millpond compared to where you blokes fly. How are those 70kt winds and the freezing fog?
Not nearly as hard as the landing light approach into Southampton at 2am with only one light and BA as your cojoe ... now that is hazardous!
Set the OBS to the inbound track please and look out for the towers
HEY! and there is nobody wandering across the pad on late finals either!!!
Ha!
Morning All,
I think most people will agree that flying Offshore (certainly in the North Sea) at night is quite well regulated and safe. Sufficient lighting is (mostly – see thread on southern North Sea NUI’s) in place and decks are regulated in terms of size and also movement which in most cases are more restrictive at night.
However I can sympathise with Special 25, especially when we are talking night landings to a smallish bow deck with lots of fast movement and nothing to look at. To be honest I do actually like the challenge of a difficult landing and feel quite satisfied after a smooth and safe landing in those conditions (you might even call it professional pride). But then again if I am the flying pilot I know that should things go wrong (e.g. deceptive references) or should I loose visuals with the deck I WILL initiate a safe go around and come back to try again.
Things are slightly different as the non-flying pilot. It’s a bit like being front seat passenger in a car in difficult driving conditions were you find yourself hitting the “air brakes” or leaning into the turn to help it round the corner. It just feels better if you drive yourself …. I think pilots especially are people who like to be in control of every situation (and so they should be). In a multi-crew environment this is slightly more difficult because there has to be trust in the other pilot’s abilities. In a well regulated company you have the knowledge that the training department thinks that the pilot is able to do the job, but personally I find that this trust is built up over time as you get to know each pilot flying the line.
As others have said before the key to safe night landings is appropriate training, a good brief, a stable approach and plenty of practice (which is probably the hardest part to get). Above all not being afraid of going around if things go wrong.
Steve76, congratulations on being such a great pilot, I genuinely hope you will miss those towers every time and I certainly take my hat off to all EMS drivers (especially the ones flying at night)! However not everyone is up there with you, yes there are mediocre and even bad pilots working within the industry (Sometimes flying single pilot has its advantages). In my opinion a discussion on how to improve safety is always a good thing - that’s why your comments make me slightly uneasy. Overall I think flying offshore, even at night, has an excellent safety record which cannot be said about your industry.
Regards,
Woolf
I think most people will agree that flying Offshore (certainly in the North Sea) at night is quite well regulated and safe. Sufficient lighting is (mostly – see thread on southern North Sea NUI’s) in place and decks are regulated in terms of size and also movement which in most cases are more restrictive at night.
However I can sympathise with Special 25, especially when we are talking night landings to a smallish bow deck with lots of fast movement and nothing to look at. To be honest I do actually like the challenge of a difficult landing and feel quite satisfied after a smooth and safe landing in those conditions (you might even call it professional pride). But then again if I am the flying pilot I know that should things go wrong (e.g. deceptive references) or should I loose visuals with the deck I WILL initiate a safe go around and come back to try again.
Things are slightly different as the non-flying pilot. It’s a bit like being front seat passenger in a car in difficult driving conditions were you find yourself hitting the “air brakes” or leaning into the turn to help it round the corner. It just feels better if you drive yourself …. I think pilots especially are people who like to be in control of every situation (and so they should be). In a multi-crew environment this is slightly more difficult because there has to be trust in the other pilot’s abilities. In a well regulated company you have the knowledge that the training department thinks that the pilot is able to do the job, but personally I find that this trust is built up over time as you get to know each pilot flying the line.
As others have said before the key to safe night landings is appropriate training, a good brief, a stable approach and plenty of practice (which is probably the hardest part to get). Above all not being afraid of going around if things go wrong.
Steve76, congratulations on being such a great pilot, I genuinely hope you will miss those towers every time and I certainly take my hat off to all EMS drivers (especially the ones flying at night)! However not everyone is up there with you, yes there are mediocre and even bad pilots working within the industry (Sometimes flying single pilot has its advantages). In my opinion a discussion on how to improve safety is always a good thing - that’s why your comments make me slightly uneasy. Overall I think flying offshore, even at night, has an excellent safety record which cannot be said about your industry.
Regards,
Woolf
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What luxury.... two engines, two pilots , auto pilot
blah blah balh...
Grab a tissue princess and wipe your tears..
When I was a lad .......jet ranger, no stab. system, 3 inch AI
But testicles the size of grape fruit......... get over it.
blah blah balh...
Grab a tissue princess and wipe your tears..
When I was a lad .......jet ranger, no stab. system, 3 inch AI
But testicles the size of grape fruit......... get over it.
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Oh dear oh dear the macho idiots are out in force - whose mantra is
"When I was a lad we only had one light to fly on, no instruments, one great pilot - me and it was perfectly safe 'cos I am the best pilot in the world and you guys in the N Sea have it cushy."
And Steve 76 I find your quote
"Not nearly as hard as the landing light approach into Southampton at 2am with only one light and BA as your cojoe ... now that is hazardous!
Set the OBS to the inbound track please and look out for the towers"
very disturbing in that you are willing to place yourself and crew/pax in a known hazardous situation. Why have you not refused to fly in there until they sort out the lighting to give you a non-hazardous approach???
The main reason safety is good in the N sea is because the pilots demand it. The oil companies are interested in profit and will generally only spend on safety if it is cheap to do so or forced on them. The leg lights on the SNS platforms are a case in point - pilot pressure got them installed.
We all have to strive for a safer environment in which to fly. Remember we choose to fly the guy/girl in the back has to provide an income for their family and some of them are scared witless by flying but still do it. It is therefore incumbent on us to provide them with the safest possible means of getting to work with the minimum risk. This is what the airlines do as many Ops Manuals state that the a/c is to be flown in the automatic mode rather than hand flown as it is "safer".
Commercial flying is not for fun and to prove how great we are it is to get the pax safely to their destination. If you want to prove how great you are, then go off and fly for pleasure.
I am all for every possible aid to safe night flying and will always strive to get the oil companies to provide it.
332M
"When I was a lad we only had one light to fly on, no instruments, one great pilot - me and it was perfectly safe 'cos I am the best pilot in the world and you guys in the N Sea have it cushy."
And Steve 76 I find your quote
"Not nearly as hard as the landing light approach into Southampton at 2am with only one light and BA as your cojoe ... now that is hazardous!
Set the OBS to the inbound track please and look out for the towers"
very disturbing in that you are willing to place yourself and crew/pax in a known hazardous situation. Why have you not refused to fly in there until they sort out the lighting to give you a non-hazardous approach???
The main reason safety is good in the N sea is because the pilots demand it. The oil companies are interested in profit and will generally only spend on safety if it is cheap to do so or forced on them. The leg lights on the SNS platforms are a case in point - pilot pressure got them installed.
We all have to strive for a safer environment in which to fly. Remember we choose to fly the guy/girl in the back has to provide an income for their family and some of them are scared witless by flying but still do it. It is therefore incumbent on us to provide them with the safest possible means of getting to work with the minimum risk. This is what the airlines do as many Ops Manuals state that the a/c is to be flown in the automatic mode rather than hand flown as it is "safer".
Commercial flying is not for fun and to prove how great we are it is to get the pax safely to their destination. If you want to prove how great you are, then go off and fly for pleasure.
I am all for every possible aid to safe night flying and will always strive to get the oil companies to provide it.
332M
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Allright, I think the latest posts have gone a little too far for my taste.
Don't know whysome guys need to start getting personal like that... very disappointing.
I thought this was a place to exchange and express opinions, thoughts, experiences... not to personnaly bash people.
As for the latest post that Steve76 did... it was directed to me as I was the co-jo flying with BA. Long story behind it... that nobody would be interested in. Just remembering the old (sad) days flying EMS in Southwestern Ontario, Canada... So, Southampton,ON not England!
Anyway, I could go on and on and on about why I totally disagree with the tone the post has taken but I'll just leave it at that.
I enjoyed getting everybody's opinion and take on flying offshore at night... even if I don't agree with some of them I respect the vues and thinking behind them... I don't think you've seen me bashing people posting them... Have you? No, exactly.
I would probably have more time picking apart everybody's post when I don't agree with them but I've just been too busy FLYING for that!
Just thought I'd put this tread back on track before it gets out of hand.
You guys who took it too far should think about apologizing to Steve76 as (probably) none of you know him and/or have had the pleasure of flying with him... so what were your comments based on then???
Galapagos
Don't know whysome guys need to start getting personal like that... very disappointing.
I thought this was a place to exchange and express opinions, thoughts, experiences... not to personnaly bash people.
As for the latest post that Steve76 did... it was directed to me as I was the co-jo flying with BA. Long story behind it... that nobody would be interested in. Just remembering the old (sad) days flying EMS in Southwestern Ontario, Canada... So, Southampton,ON not England!
Anyway, I could go on and on and on about why I totally disagree with the tone the post has taken but I'll just leave it at that.
I enjoyed getting everybody's opinion and take on flying offshore at night... even if I don't agree with some of them I respect the vues and thinking behind them... I don't think you've seen me bashing people posting them... Have you? No, exactly.
I would probably have more time picking apart everybody's post when I don't agree with them but I've just been too busy FLYING for that!
Just thought I'd put this tread back on track before it gets out of hand.
You guys who took it too far should think about apologizing to Steve76 as (probably) none of you know him and/or have had the pleasure of flying with him... so what were your comments based on then???
Galapagos
Sorry Steve
You really should realise that there is no room for a little light-hearted humour in this very serious (and very professional) aviation forum. Please stop these comments or the humour police will be straight round!
Actually, the most scared I have ever been (in a helicopter) was my first single pilot night departure from the Tharos - All North Sea night operations should include a co-pilot to hold your teddy bear!
TeeS
You really should realise that there is no room for a little light-hearted humour in this very serious (and very professional) aviation forum. Please stop these comments or the humour police will be straight round!
Actually, the most scared I have ever been (in a helicopter) was my first single pilot night departure from the Tharos - All North Sea night operations should include a co-pilot to hold your teddy bear!
TeeS
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It's that time again
Just thought I would re-read the comments about offshore night ops that were posted last winter. The joys of landing in sh***y conditions with ancient equipment on monopod platforms are with me again and with my other hat on I wonder when this whole process was last "risk-assessed".
How many of our ops have the "skill-meter" running in the last 5% ? It may be fun to take on a tough challenge and succeeed, but in a world where 80% of accidents are caused by human error is this the right approach to take? Shouldn't we be identifying those areas where the skill-meter is maxed out and trimming back our expactations. Alternatively we could take Nick L's approach and use technology to mitigate the risk.
We're all a year older and a year wiser. Do we still think that the only problem with night flying is the size of your gonads!
What new technologies have emerged over the last 12 months I wonder?
G
How many of our ops have the "skill-meter" running in the last 5% ? It may be fun to take on a tough challenge and succeeed, but in a world where 80% of accidents are caused by human error is this the right approach to take? Shouldn't we be identifying those areas where the skill-meter is maxed out and trimming back our expactations. Alternatively we could take Nick L's approach and use technology to mitigate the risk.
We're all a year older and a year wiser. Do we still think that the only problem with night flying is the size of your gonads!
What new technologies have emerged over the last 12 months I wonder?
G
Thread Starter
Well, tried to revisit this subject, but not much comment.
Now sadly, we have had the inevitable offshore accident at night, maybe there will be some added enthusiasm to debate this issue without the masculine bravado that seems to have populated this thread.
Of course I don't know what caused the Dauphin to crash into the sea at night with the loss of several lives, but the initial findings suggest it was not a mechanical fault. No firm conclusions yet but the likely suggestions will of course revolve around instrument error, gyros, auto-pilot malfunction, pilot error or catastrophic failure (which again seems to have been initially put to one side). Any of these conclusions would be perectly understandable, but all except the last one would most likely have been recoverable by day, but were not in this instance at night, and this involved pilots that were as good as (if not better) than the average crew.
Now sadly, we have had the inevitable offshore accident at night, maybe there will be some added enthusiasm to debate this issue without the masculine bravado that seems to have populated this thread.
Of course I don't know what caused the Dauphin to crash into the sea at night with the loss of several lives, but the initial findings suggest it was not a mechanical fault. No firm conclusions yet but the likely suggestions will of course revolve around instrument error, gyros, auto-pilot malfunction, pilot error or catastrophic failure (which again seems to have been initially put to one side). Any of these conclusions would be perectly understandable, but all except the last one would most likely have been recoverable by day, but were not in this instance at night, and this involved pilots that were as good as (if not better) than the average crew.
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What I am hearing is that pilots agree that:
Recently the company I fly for did a job for BP in an “all singing, all dancing” S76. BP refused to let us even board passengers in the dark at the airport, never mind actually fly. It was against their policy and rules for normal ops! Too risky!
If leading oil companies believe that the risk is that high and are not investing, or even indicating a willingness to invest, in the technology what is the point in the pilots ‘swimming upstream’? No matter how often you “say mine is bigger” there is going to be a paymaster that says “no it is not”.
How are we going to convince the user otherwise?
Recently the company I fly for did a job for BP in an “all singing, all dancing” S76. BP refused to let us even board passengers in the dark at the airport, never mind actually fly. It was against their policy and rules for normal ops! Too risky!
If leading oil companies believe that the risk is that high and are not investing, or even indicating a willingness to invest, in the technology what is the point in the pilots ‘swimming upstream’? No matter how often you “say mine is bigger” there is going to be a paymaster that says “no it is not”.
How are we going to convince the user otherwise?