Airborne Camera Systems
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
NUMBERS.
A recent story in a US paper may provide a clue to FLIR pricing.
'The Chicago Fire Department helicopter will soon be equipped with a state-of-the-art thermal imaging camera capable of dramatically improving high-rise firefighting and outdoor rescue, under a $255,973 contract quietly approved last month.
City Hall has signed a no-bid contract with FLIR Systems Inc. for delivery of the Ultra 8500 camera system within 90 days. [Sun]'
I guess an element of that will be fitting and training.
A recent story in a US paper may provide a clue to FLIR pricing.
'The Chicago Fire Department helicopter will soon be equipped with a state-of-the-art thermal imaging camera capable of dramatically improving high-rise firefighting and outdoor rescue, under a $255,973 contract quietly approved last month.
City Hall has signed a no-bid contract with FLIR Systems Inc. for delivery of the Ultra 8500 camera system within 90 days. [Sun]'
I guess an element of that will be fitting and training.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: South East England
Only ones I've seen are fitted to the tail, as in these pics
Welsh Police
Italian Police
Not sure if the Dyfed-Powys Police are still operating their 109, but you could try them as a starter
http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/
Welsh Police
Italian Police
Not sure if the Dyfed-Powys Police are still operating their 109, but you could try them as a starter
http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: new zealand
Hey Bellsux,
There are many infrared camera options out there but most are quite specific to a certain role (of which there are many). Most can be used for simple work such as police support or sar but some can be used for more technical work such as powerline patrols, gis fire and thermal mapping etc.
If you are looking at a new system, FLIR still seem to be leading the field but it really depends on exactly what you want to do with it.
Cheer cheer, good luck.
There are many infrared camera options out there but most are quite specific to a certain role (of which there are many). Most can be used for simple work such as police support or sar but some can be used for more technical work such as powerline patrols, gis fire and thermal mapping etc.
If you are looking at a new system, FLIR still seem to be leading the field but it really depends on exactly what you want to do with it.
Cheer cheer, good luck.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Although recent FLIR carrying 109s have tended to carry the FLIR ventrally it seems to reflect the size of the FLIR - it eases the CoG with 'heavy' units like the Wescam 15 and the FSI Ultramedia. These tend to be European based [still in Dyfed] Italy, Slovenia and China. I guess that such a fit would be difficult to retrofit ... lots of EMC issues likely.
But in the US where smaller FLIR units like the Wescam 12 and Inframetrics derived units tend to be used on the 109 and and 119 they are fitted forward offset to port and use simple equipment and offer a relatively simple retrofit option. Look up Cal at Meeker Aviation he knows a great deal about this aspect of the market. Operators are New York, New Mexico, etc
There are lots of manufacturers out there and Wescam and FSI may be neck and neck [not quite a home run for FSI as the previous post suggests] but there are plenty of others that will give you their eye-teeth - and a potential discount if you choose them....
But in the US where smaller FLIR units like the Wescam 12 and Inframetrics derived units tend to be used on the 109 and and 119 they are fitted forward offset to port and use simple equipment and offer a relatively simple retrofit option. Look up Cal at Meeker Aviation he knows a great deal about this aspect of the market. Operators are New York, New Mexico, etc
There are lots of manufacturers out there and Wescam and FSI may be neck and neck [not quite a home run for FSI as the previous post suggests] but there are plenty of others that will give you their eye-teeth - and a potential discount if you choose them....
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: oceanside
bellsux; some questions for you with regards to the flir install on the -109
- what is your mission
- do you have floats installed
- is the install going to be full time, or just as needed
- are you willing to make permanent mod to airframe
- how much weight can you afford to carry
- and of course, how much do you want to spend
just did some work with agusta US on penn state koala and phoenix pd's -109, so its still fresh. thats a good start, if you want send a p/m
thanks
chopperdr
aka; cal meeker, meeker aviation
- what is your mission
- do you have floats installed
- is the install going to be full time, or just as needed
- are you willing to make permanent mod to airframe
- how much weight can you afford to carry
- and of course, how much do you want to spend
just did some work with agusta US on penn state koala and phoenix pd's -109, so its still fresh. thats a good start, if you want send a p/m
thanks
chopperdr
aka; cal meeker, meeker aviation
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
bellsux - try FLIR Systems (US company) - they provided the IR camera we are using in UK mil SAR at the moment and it is very good. It uses the latest QWIP (Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector) technology and has a very small Stirling pump to cool the detector quickly. It was procured to give the capability to find a person in the water and works very well.
You might need to have an IR detector working in a different band of wavelengths depending on the climate you will operate in but the company will advise you on that. Our removable turret also houses a daytime TV camera but I suspect our installation would be too big for a 109.
You might need to have an IR detector working in a different band of wavelengths depending on the climate you will operate in but the company will advise you on that. Our removable turret also houses a daytime TV camera but I suspect our installation would be too big for a 109.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
Bell,
As Cal mentioned, does your 109 have the float kit? Most FLIR kits require the forward float mount on the 109; without it you will probably be up for mega$$ to create a useable attachment point for any FLIR.
As Cal mentioned, does your 109 have the float kit? Most FLIR kits require the forward float mount on the 109; without it you will probably be up for mega$$ to create a useable attachment point for any FLIR.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: Close enough to know
Bellsux
If you are looking for both daylight and IR (duel sensor) capabilities, then you should contact Cineflex in Grass Valley Ca.. The daylight capability is High Definition, it's a serious step from the FLIR and Westcam offerings, that is if you're looking for detail in the images.....
If you are looking for both daylight and IR (duel sensor) capabilities, then you should contact Cineflex in Grass Valley Ca.. The daylight capability is High Definition, it's a serious step from the FLIR and Westcam offerings, that is if you're looking for detail in the images.....
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Sling,
Before again pointing out specific companies.... and I believe Cineflex are a bit of a one horse option [on size and weight] no matter how good the image ... we are still pottering around trying to find out the task and the kit that may or may not influence the choice of kit from Bellsux.
The mission is all important and until you have some idea on that - and the carrier airframe - it is a bit poinless suggesting whether you offer him advice on a 12, 16 or indeed a 24 inch turret [!!!!] answer let alone how and where it is fitted [permanantly or temporary].
All imagers from all the manufacturers you may care to mention will give you something to look at but until the basics are sorted you cannot even go there safely with the aircraft trimmed and safe to operate!
Just how long is the piece of string Bellsux?
Before again pointing out specific companies.... and I believe Cineflex are a bit of a one horse option [on size and weight] no matter how good the image ... we are still pottering around trying to find out the task and the kit that may or may not influence the choice of kit from Bellsux.
The mission is all important and until you have some idea on that - and the carrier airframe - it is a bit poinless suggesting whether you offer him advice on a 12, 16 or indeed a 24 inch turret [!!!!] answer let alone how and where it is fitted [permanantly or temporary].
All imagers from all the manufacturers you may care to mention will give you something to look at but until the basics are sorted you cannot even go there safely with the aircraft trimmed and safe to operate!
Just how long is the piece of string Bellsux?
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: oceanside
having the opportunity to work with almost all the major manufactures of IR/color/low light etc cameras throughout the world i know that each mfg brings to the market unique characteristics.
with that said, would never recommend any one system over another without carefully reviewing the mission. then you start to narrow down the playing field. no different than buying a new helicopter. they all have positive and negatives.
therefore, bellsux, whats the mission, how much weight can you carry and the final 64K question, whats your budget.
dr
sling: btw, last week FSI flew their UMHD on our nose mount (BELL 206), this new camera had longer focal length than any existing HD cameras, with excellent stablization.
knowing firsthand the competive nature of the business, as witnessed by the filing cabinet full of NDA\'s in our office, i do not doubt a new offering / upgrade is in the works from any number of mfgs as i write this.
as we all know, when buying any item with technology that is developing overnight, best to very carefully investigate all the offerings. this is a prime reason we see law enforcement agencies having competive "fly-offs" as standard procedures when purchasing new equipment.
dr
with that said, would never recommend any one system over another without carefully reviewing the mission. then you start to narrow down the playing field. no different than buying a new helicopter. they all have positive and negatives.
therefore, bellsux, whats the mission, how much weight can you carry and the final 64K question, whats your budget.
dr
sling: btw, last week FSI flew their UMHD on our nose mount (BELL 206), this new camera had longer focal length than any existing HD cameras, with excellent stablization.
knowing firsthand the competive nature of the business, as witnessed by the filing cabinet full of NDA\'s in our office, i do not doubt a new offering / upgrade is in the works from any number of mfgs as i write this.
as we all know, when buying any item with technology that is developing overnight, best to very carefully investigate all the offerings. this is a prime reason we see law enforcement agencies having competive "fly-offs" as standard procedures when purchasing new equipment.
dr
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 128
Likes: 7
From: Melbourne, Australia
this new camera had longer focal length than any existing HD cameras
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: oceanside
as mentioned, due to NDA not allowed to mention any details. truthfully they told me what it was, went rapidly in one ear and out the other. i'm pretty sure if you asked the likes of FSI , Cineflex, Gyrocam, Wescam etc the same question directly they would probably tell you, their pretty proud of their respective systems and rightly so.
on our end my concern during flight testing is making sure the mount is doing its job and our mechanical vibration isolators are properly tuned for each application. beyond that, the "guts" do not interest me. weight, size and shape, now thats interesting when your the mount guy : )
dr
on our end my concern during flight testing is making sure the mount is doing its job and our mechanical vibration isolators are properly tuned for each application. beyond that, the "guts" do not interest me. weight, size and shape, now thats interesting when your the mount guy : )
dr
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I have had a good look at most of them now and FLIR has a pretty good range. I am lucky enough to be able to not worry about the budget too much but I don't want a huge ball hanging from my machine and an overcomplicated system. Yes I do have floats and I cant use the fwd attach points. Fitting the monitor in the cockpit seems like it will be out of the question though as there's not much room left in it.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: Australia
pan... errr... believe it or not we have this area behind the cockpit where you can squeeze up to six (very small) people and or some equipment . Maybe you have the 109 confused for a helicopter called the R22, a bit of searching on Google might help you tell the difference.
and I am just having a freindly dig before you start to smoke up the keyboard...
and I am just having a freindly dig before you start to smoke up the keyboard...
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Cripes I knew I was making a mistake.... ah yes I remember the one ... pointy at the front and back ... difficult to slow down ....
Should be a good party then now we have six [little] people peering at the monitor...
Ah.... but what are they looking at?
You KNOW we want to know!
Should be a good party then now we have six [little] people peering at the monitor...
Ah.... but what are they looking at?
You KNOW we want to know!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: oceanside
bellsux: now were getting somewhere. my suggestions
1) seriously look at FLIR 8500XR. probably the biggest bang for the buck, size and shape. Also look at wescam MX12, polytech cobalt, taman pop and denel 350.
2) is the camera going to be installed full time?
3) have to consider export control licenses, may be an issue with FLIR and wescam equipment
4) get the warranty written in stone, deal with local distributor for the purchase. talk to the factory for tech questions and support
5) with regards to mount, can you remove one float for camera work, that would make for an easy install
6) if not can you do a "walkaround" of your airframe and send jpegs on a pm or via our website, can suggest some alternative install location
7) can you return to service with a local approval, as an stc will be very cost prohibative
8) monitors: phone scott holst at paravion in colorado, they have good monitors and an assortment of arms / mounts for the monitors that are well proven.
thanks
chopperdr
1) seriously look at FLIR 8500XR. probably the biggest bang for the buck, size and shape. Also look at wescam MX12, polytech cobalt, taman pop and denel 350.
2) is the camera going to be installed full time?
3) have to consider export control licenses, may be an issue with FLIR and wescam equipment
4) get the warranty written in stone, deal with local distributor for the purchase. talk to the factory for tech questions and support
5) with regards to mount, can you remove one float for camera work, that would make for an easy install
6) if not can you do a "walkaround" of your airframe and send jpegs on a pm or via our website, can suggest some alternative install location
7) can you return to service with a local approval, as an stc will be very cost prohibative
8) monitors: phone scott holst at paravion in colorado, they have good monitors and an assortment of arms / mounts for the monitors that are well proven.
thanks
chopperdr