Bell 206: JetRanger and LongRanger
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What planet are you on? It will filp over in a heartbeat and sink like a stone with a lead weight tied to it. If you haven't done HUET then you are already dead. Sorry to be blunt, but these are the facts.
(this is in a calm sea state, if it is rough your chances are much reduced)
(this is in a calm sea state, if it is rough your chances are much reduced)
Last edited by trimpot; 4th Sep 2003 at 18:13.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: england
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VFR
Rumour has it (this being a rumour network) that the very lucky pilot spotted by the fixed wing who was lucky enough to be carrying a life raft was trained to ATPL free of charge to help him over his ordeal.
Rumour has it (this being a rumour network) that the very lucky pilot spotted by the fixed wing who was lucky enough to be carrying a life raft was trained to ATPL free of charge to help him over his ordeal.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pilot who crashed into Windermere a couple of winters ago told me that by the time he got the door open, the aircraft was submerged and going down!! - in January too. BRRRRR.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For how long will a Jetranger float
A good friend of mine put a B206 Jetranger III in the sea between the Sydney Harbour Heads after the engine failed. I believe he rolled it to the right once it was in the water. My friend and his two crew members got out of it, I think one may have got stuck for only a few moments, all were Huet trained. I believe it stayed submerged a few feet under the surface for a few minutes, the sea that day from memory was very calm. Two army barges were passing by and my friend got them to throw him a line which he connected to the skids. I arrived with my boss about half an hour later and watched the police divers bring it to the surface with floatation bags. Apart from some impact damage around the bottom of the boot area and one of the pitch links broken it was in good nick. If we could have gotten a sky hook right then and there and put it on the army barge alot of the damage caused by towing it to the recovery area may have been prevented. The engineers did a great job in rebuilding this Jetranger and it served many more years flying. A great job and quick thinking from my friend I reckon, I hope I would have done as a good as a job as he did.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All interesting posts, and most to the same conclusion.....it sinks quickly and more than likely inverted. One thing I havent seen posted here is based on some rules I read somewhere. They mentioned something like "within autorotational distance from land" OR mandatory floats for work out of the above requirement.
As to floats working well, if all else goes well. Gary Manion can take credit for landing a B206 in the Ocean off St Croix last year. www.aircenterhelicopters.com A rather textbook autorotation after an engine failure. Floats worked and the aircraft was in fact towed to shore and is again flying. Time to give the man a hats off for good piloting.
On the no float list we can also say that recently a Pilot?? placed an Enstrom into Hartebeesport dam area of South Africa (pprune post earlier) without floats. Viewed Damage indicates to me of high speed, low level with what we call "inability to judge height above water." That coupled with girlfriend on board indicates, at least to me, of a Testosterone problem. It did not float.
As to floats working well, if all else goes well. Gary Manion can take credit for landing a B206 in the Ocean off St Croix last year. www.aircenterhelicopters.com A rather textbook autorotation after an engine failure. Floats worked and the aircraft was in fact towed to shore and is again flying. Time to give the man a hats off for good piloting.
On the no float list we can also say that recently a Pilot?? placed an Enstrom into Hartebeesport dam area of South Africa (pprune post earlier) without floats. Viewed Damage indicates to me of high speed, low level with what we call "inability to judge height above water." That coupled with girlfriend on board indicates, at least to me, of a Testosterone problem. It did not float.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am no expert on the subject but this question reminds me of the sketch by Bob Newhart, on the buget airline. He was asked a similar question by one of his "passengers" and he said "Some stay afloat for twenty, thrirty seconds. Others go down like a rock!!!!!".
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a little more info on the incident that my friend was involved with, at the point of landing, it was a conventional skids level touch down, the body then fell over to the left bringing the pilots door effectivly to the top of the body, at this point my buddy exited the craft and just slid into the sea and pushed away and sort of swam backwards away from the Heli, the heli continued to roll over and became inverted showing the belly and skids, however he quickly lost sight of it and did not see it sink for the sea state hid it from his sight, so it would seem that time is not on your side if you land in the wet stuff!
A little correction to Rick W's post - the engine didn't actually fail, it just ran down to idle. A minor point - Allison could say it was still running, but just not putting out any power.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Posts: 4,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"A minor point - Allison could say it was still running, but just not putting out any power."
I like that answer, sounds like one typically taken from an Insurance claim......
I remember years ago while working on the Surplus Program for Law Enforcement ( As you may know many OH-58s were given out.) Anyway through the surplus system We were also allowed to get NEW Military oil that saved us a ton of money. When brought up in a discussion where the Allison Rep was present and the mention of MilSpec oil was used he almost had a heart attack....Thats bad oil etc.... really went bonkers. I came back with "You mean to tell me I have been flying this thing in the Military for years and the Oil they use is no good"......He got real quiet. I just think he was wanting folks to BUY his oil....
I like that answer, sounds like one typically taken from an Insurance claim......
I remember years ago while working on the Surplus Program for Law Enforcement ( As you may know many OH-58s were given out.) Anyway through the surplus system We were also allowed to get NEW Military oil that saved us a ton of money. When brought up in a discussion where the Allison Rep was present and the mention of MilSpec oil was used he almost had a heart attack....Thats bad oil etc.... really went bonkers. I came back with "You mean to tell me I have been flying this thing in the Military for years and the Oil they use is no good"......He got real quiet. I just think he was wanting folks to BUY his oil....
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will all be in the "good book" from Bell. However, from past (third hand!!) experience, the engineers seemed to do a lot of work on the transmission, T/R system. But engine damage could also be done too, I imagine.
Always check you can see a blade at 3 o'clock, and it shouldn't really happen!!
Always check you can see a blade at 3 o'clock, and it shouldn't really happen!!
Depending on what Ng you get to, I have heard that if the tie down snaps the sudden acceleration can just about rip the transmission out, or roll the a/c over. I have seen a pic of a 206 (it was in Canada I think) where the whole tail rotor gear box had detached from the boom from it being started while tied down.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we always start the first engine on the S76A+ with the rotor brake on, and release it at 50%N1, also at shutdown stop the rotor on the rotor brake with one engine running at ground idle before shutting it down.
also we can bring both engines back to ground idle and stop the rotor on the rotor brake, and keep both engines running in certain situations like loading difficult freight on an offshore helideck when you really dont want to be shutting down unless you have to.
obviously you cant do either of these on a Jetbox, but assuming it doesnt break its tie down and you abort the start dont see what damage it can cause as it is a free turbine, am I wrong ?
also we can bring both engines back to ground idle and stop the rotor on the rotor brake, and keep both engines running in certain situations like loading difficult freight on an offshore helideck when you really dont want to be shutting down unless you have to.
obviously you cant do either of these on a Jetbox, but assuming it doesnt break its tie down and you abort the start dont see what damage it can cause as it is a free turbine, am I wrong ?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Over here
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There should be no damage to the engine, but the torque produced could cause damage to the tailboom or the drivetrain back toward the tailrotor. As long as the engine doesn't go above idle, the tiedown should stay intact, but if the rope is badly frayed, or the knot is poorly tied, the blades could suddenly come free, & then the likely result is a turnover, from the sudden torque and the imbalance from the weight on the end of one blade.
This is something that almost every jetBox pilot can expect to do at some time, especially if the job involves a scramble start.
But the flight manual says "Ensure blade is turning by 25% N1" and when i looked up to see if it was turning - and it wasn't - I then shut it off from about 30% N1. Engineers confirmed no damage, except to pride.
The other thing you can expect to do is start it with the fuel valve off. Normal light-off, winds up to about 40% and then goes awfully quiet - you can even hear the laughter of the people 50 feet away watching you.
But the flight manual says "Ensure blade is turning by 25% N1" and when i looked up to see if it was turning - and it wasn't - I then shut it off from about 30% N1. Engineers confirmed no damage, except to pride.
The other thing you can expect to do is start it with the fuel valve off. Normal light-off, winds up to about 40% and then goes awfully quiet - you can even hear the laughter of the people 50 feet away watching you.
Lighting a JetRanger off with the MR still tied down should pose no big problems. You'll notice it soon enough. ...Or at least, you *should* notice it. I've known one or two oblivious pilots who got the bloody thing nearly all the way up to idle before they realized something was amiss. If the tiedown rope/strap breaks things can get...um, interesting and you're probably bug*ered. I've heard about 206's torqued completely over onto their side (strong C-20's!). And I actually saw one that *nearly* went over. It lifted its skid a bit, then dropped it back down hard enough to wrinkle skin (the aircraft's, not the pilot's). If nothing else, the remaining strap ends are GOING to cause some damage as they flail around while you're trying to pump the rotor brake as fast as you can.
I know that what I'm saying next will go against the grain, but I never did subscribe to that "put the blade 90 degrees" stuff. For one thing, it persuades you to forget about the main rotor for the time being and focusing completely inside the cockpit during the start. Wrong!
Here's the other reason: The RFM says that the MR must be turning by 25% N1. If you cannot see the blade, how do you know it is turning? New 206 pilots are usually so overwhelmed by the process that they cannot give a quick glance up to check that the blade has started to turn, but after awhile it shouldn't be all that much of a challenge. In the GOM awhile back, I did catch one engine that my "opposite" had been short-cooling. The MR didn't even budge by 30% N1. I turned the rotor backward enough to actually start to take hours *off* the Hobbsmeter, but to no avail; the mechs had to change the turbine. Had I been one to put the blades athwart, I might not have noticed right away.
Oh, and starting with the fuel valve off is no big deal. If you have a C-20B and you're watching closely, you'll see the TOT start to waver a bit just before it signs off. (This should clue you in so that you won't be surprised next time you do it.) If you're quick, simply keep the button depressed with one hand while quickly flipping the valve on with the other. The engine will re-light and you can continue on your merry way. I've never had...um, I mean I'VE NEVER HEARD OF a C-20B "going hot" if you do this, although it's certainly something I watch...I mean IT WOULD CERTAINLY BE something I'd watch for. (A C-30 is trickier. It doesn't give you the little needle fluctuation that the -20 does.)
Starting with the throttle open can be REAL exciting (and expensive). Fortunately I have never performed this particular trick (yet). Check throttle closed! Then check it again. And a third time. Then one final time just before punching the button. And if you can't remember doing it, do it. There is no danger, and despite what some people say, you *cannot* introduce raw fuel into the combustion chamber by doing this as long as everything is working properly.
Do not ask me how I know any of this. I'd have to kill you. But let's just say that I've been flying 206's longer than I care to admit, and have made just about every mistake imagineable...and some that Bell probably hadn't imagined. I did get into advancing blade stall one day...but that's another story.
I know that what I'm saying next will go against the grain, but I never did subscribe to that "put the blade 90 degrees" stuff. For one thing, it persuades you to forget about the main rotor for the time being and focusing completely inside the cockpit during the start. Wrong!
Here's the other reason: The RFM says that the MR must be turning by 25% N1. If you cannot see the blade, how do you know it is turning? New 206 pilots are usually so overwhelmed by the process that they cannot give a quick glance up to check that the blade has started to turn, but after awhile it shouldn't be all that much of a challenge. In the GOM awhile back, I did catch one engine that my "opposite" had been short-cooling. The MR didn't even budge by 30% N1. I turned the rotor backward enough to actually start to take hours *off* the Hobbsmeter, but to no avail; the mechs had to change the turbine. Had I been one to put the blades athwart, I might not have noticed right away.
Oh, and starting with the fuel valve off is no big deal. If you have a C-20B and you're watching closely, you'll see the TOT start to waver a bit just before it signs off. (This should clue you in so that you won't be surprised next time you do it.) If you're quick, simply keep the button depressed with one hand while quickly flipping the valve on with the other. The engine will re-light and you can continue on your merry way. I've never had...um, I mean I'VE NEVER HEARD OF a C-20B "going hot" if you do this, although it's certainly something I watch...I mean IT WOULD CERTAINLY BE something I'd watch for. (A C-30 is trickier. It doesn't give you the little needle fluctuation that the -20 does.)
Starting with the throttle open can be REAL exciting (and expensive). Fortunately I have never performed this particular trick (yet). Check throttle closed! Then check it again. And a third time. Then one final time just before punching the button. And if you can't remember doing it, do it. There is no danger, and despite what some people say, you *cannot* introduce raw fuel into the combustion chamber by doing this as long as everything is working properly.
Do not ask me how I know any of this. I'd have to kill you. But let's just say that I've been flying 206's longer than I care to admit, and have made just about every mistake imagineable...and some that Bell probably hadn't imagined. I did get into advancing blade stall one day...but that's another story.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"we always start the first engine on the S76A+ with the rotor brake on, and release it at 50%N1, also at shutdown stop the rotor on the rotor brake with one engine running at ground idle before shutting it down."
Just interested as to why you always start with the brake on?
I too have flown the s76a++ for a few years and I always found the shock loading through the system at brake release can’t be doing the drive train any good at all.
(For others, it’s quite a jolt at release, right through the whole airframe…)
I only started by that method in exceptional circumstances.
Is it because you can, or another reason?
I’m sure your engineer’s cringe watching it.
