Handguns for survival purposes in the Canadian bush. Any comments?
Rotorboy....Elk season usually consists of a single shot....thus recoil is not a problem. (Sighting them in is where the pain occurs!) But then I have friends that love to shoot....I Tom Sawyer them into painting that fence for me.
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I've been in the bush flying all around NWT, Yukon and Alaska for years - you're absolutly wasting your time with a handgun.
Buy yourself a nice Defender like the others have suggested, if you're really worried, get a .416, kill anything anywhere with one shot, not too good for grouse though...
As for the Gov't not issuing a handgun permit for survival purposes, well good for them. I personally take great issue with the whole registry program, but they've got that one right if you ask me.
RH
Buy yourself a nice Defender like the others have suggested, if you're really worried, get a .416, kill anything anywhere with one shot, not too good for grouse though...
As for the Gov't not issuing a handgun permit for survival purposes, well good for them. I personally take great issue with the whole registry program, but they've got that one right if you ask me.
RH
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SASLESS, you sure know how to make a grown man cry 
"...then bought the Remington 870, 20 inch barrel....extended magazine. Never looked back since."
I had the excact same rig before Australia did what Canada is doing... the boys out bush got most upset when I would put a solid in a Pig from 150m, first because they would laugh cause they thought I couldn't do it, and did... second because you'd lose a lot at the box (if you got anything at all) a clean kill, but messy none the less.
"...then bought the Remington 870, 20 inch barrel....extended magazine. Never looked back since."
I had the excact same rig before Australia did what Canada is doing... the boys out bush got most upset when I would put a solid in a Pig from 150m, first because they would laugh cause they thought I couldn't do it, and did... second because you'd lose a lot at the box (if you got anything at all) a clean kill, but messy none the less.
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or... a shorty
I never had any problems with my Mossy, even when using custom splintex loads, but i did treat here like a lady, even when we were rolling in the mud.
for a more conservative alternative (than my beloved HK51K), there is always the (sommer-ockenfuss) shorty
These little babies are a treat to shoot, they have a wonderful balance & the point feel is really sweet, which can be handy for any instinctive shooting requirements/scenarios.
Magazine Standard 5-round capacity (magazines with 10 rd capacity are also available)
Total Length 820mm .
Weight 3.3 kg (according to caliber)
Calibers - take your pick; 22-250; .243 Win; .270 Win; 7mm Rem. Mag; .308 Win; 30 - 06; .300 Win Mag; .338 Win Mag; .375 H & H Mag; .416 Rem. Mag; .338 Lapua Mag.
(additional calibers upon request).
a full power hunting rifle with a high speed repeater action (no it's not a semi-auto), without the bulk or length of a conventional hunting rifle
for a more conservative alternative (than my beloved HK51K), there is always the (sommer-ockenfuss) shorty
These little babies are a treat to shoot, they have a wonderful balance & the point feel is really sweet, which can be handy for any instinctive shooting requirements/scenarios.
Magazine Standard 5-round capacity (magazines with 10 rd capacity are also available)
Total Length 820mm .
Weight 3.3 kg (according to caliber)
Calibers - take your pick; 22-250; .243 Win; .270 Win; 7mm Rem. Mag; .308 Win; 30 - 06; .300 Win Mag; .338 Win Mag; .375 H & H Mag; .416 Rem. Mag; .338 Lapua Mag.
(additional calibers upon request).
a full power hunting rifle with a high speed repeater action (no it's not a semi-auto), without the bulk or length of a conventional hunting rifle
Having looked at the bear in the above thread, I think the following may be in order. Not all of which would be entirely practical in the cockpit...
Belt-fed version of the HK 51
An old favourite which should handle most things, but fairly expensive to run, and...
The .700 Nitro-Express. Will take down anything, period.
You may want to check with local authoritys as some of these firearms may have some restrictions in your area.
Belt-fed version of the HK 51
An old favourite which should handle most things, but fairly expensive to run, and...
The .700 Nitro-Express. Will take down anything, period.
You may want to check with local authoritys as some of these firearms may have some restrictions in your area.
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In areas populated by brown bears, I recommend both a long gun and a handgun. Even the most powerful handguns are pitifully weak against a 14' brown bear. But more than one hunter has been attacked so quickly in the brush that he could not bring his long gun to bear (sorry) before the critter was on him. At that point, a handgun in a hip holster would have been better than beating on the brownie with his fists. As for the choice of handgun, most people consider .44 Mag to be the minimum. Be sure you have full power loads, designed for bear. There are a lot of wimpy .44 Mag factory loads.
As for the long guns mentioned, I certainly agree with the recommendations for a 12 guage pump or a trapper lever action in 45-70 or similar. If you carry a lever action, make sure you are carrying appropriate (solids) high-powered ammunition. Many 45-70 commercial loadings are weak so that they won't blow up an older gun. I also recommend that you have ghost-ring sights installed on the rifle -- I find them faster to acquire than standard open sights. Don't bother with a scope.
I'm not a fan of a stockless, pistol gripped 12 guage. Try shooting one sometime. First, they hurt, which means you won't practice. Second, they're awfully hard to hit anything with if it's more than 10' away. If a brownie is charging you, missing is a bad option.
As for a 5.56 Nato poodle shooter, no thanks. Not enough penetration against a brownie. I'd consider 7.62 Nato to be somewhat marginal against a brown bear, but a much better alternative than 5.56 Nato. However, as has already been mentioned, I believe Canada frowns upon "ugly" rifles, so either of these alternatives may be academic. Here in the People's Repulik of Massachusetts, we have our own foolish firearms regulations as well, so you have my sympathies.
As for the long guns mentioned, I certainly agree with the recommendations for a 12 guage pump or a trapper lever action in 45-70 or similar. If you carry a lever action, make sure you are carrying appropriate (solids) high-powered ammunition. Many 45-70 commercial loadings are weak so that they won't blow up an older gun. I also recommend that you have ghost-ring sights installed on the rifle -- I find them faster to acquire than standard open sights. Don't bother with a scope.
I'm not a fan of a stockless, pistol gripped 12 guage. Try shooting one sometime. First, they hurt, which means you won't practice. Second, they're awfully hard to hit anything with if it's more than 10' away. If a brownie is charging you, missing is a bad option.
As for a 5.56 Nato poodle shooter, no thanks. Not enough penetration against a brownie. I'd consider 7.62 Nato to be somewhat marginal against a brown bear, but a much better alternative than 5.56 Nato. However, as has already been mentioned, I believe Canada frowns upon "ugly" rifles, so either of these alternatives may be academic. Here in the People's Repulik of Massachusetts, we have our own foolish firearms regulations as well, so you have my sympathies.
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Hey Guys
I'm really impressed with the response I'm getting but I'm not flying in Iraq.
I'm not worried about Al queda, just Bears in general.
Big Mike has some really neat toys, but here in Canada I'd be considered a hardened terrorist if I ever got caught with one of these.
We seem to be slipping somewhat from the original question witch is "what do you think about Handguns for survival purposes in the Canadian bush" Should it be legal or not?
Between a 22 cal. riffle and a HK51K lead churner
there must be room for a handgun somewhere in there... yes?
In My mind, the best solution, to me, is Packing a handgun. It is very discrete and in the case of a 44 magnum with a six inch barrel or something of that nature is very deadly for anything on four legs.
Last summer a bear got in to my AS350 while I was having a sh... a couple of hundred feet away.
My 3030 Winchester was in a cargo cheek, not much use for me there, so I scared him off shooting my 44mag that I was packing (Thank God for that)
The only damage that he did to the machine while trying to flee is to a door that he bashed to pieces. He could of caused a lot more damage and left me grounded (Stranded) miles from civilization if I hadn't managed to scare him off.
I also don't particularly get off on the idea that passenger or crew have knowledge of a firearm in my chopper (they often get stolen). In the bush after a few good belts of Jack Daniel's, someone might have a flash of "Hey I know where there's a riffle in one of the machines, lets go shoot it off" or something.
What says you
I'm really impressed with the response I'm getting but I'm not flying in Iraq.
I'm not worried about Al queda, just Bears in general.
Big Mike has some really neat toys, but here in Canada I'd be considered a hardened terrorist if I ever got caught with one of these.
We seem to be slipping somewhat from the original question witch is "what do you think about Handguns for survival purposes in the Canadian bush" Should it be legal or not?
Between a 22 cal. riffle and a HK51K lead churner
there must be room for a handgun somewhere in there... yes?
In My mind, the best solution, to me, is Packing a handgun. It is very discrete and in the case of a 44 magnum with a six inch barrel or something of that nature is very deadly for anything on four legs.
Last summer a bear got in to my AS350 while I was having a sh... a couple of hundred feet away.
My 3030 Winchester was in a cargo cheek, not much use for me there, so I scared him off shooting my 44mag that I was packing (Thank God for that)
The only damage that he did to the machine while trying to flee is to a door that he bashed to pieces. He could of caused a lot more damage and left me grounded (Stranded) miles from civilization if I hadn't managed to scare him off.
I also don't particularly get off on the idea that passenger or crew have knowledge of a firearm in my chopper (they often get stolen). In the bush after a few good belts of Jack Daniel's, someone might have a flash of "Hey I know where there's a riffle in one of the machines, lets go shoot it off" or something.
What says you
Last edited by cptpinpin; 15th Oct 2005 at 19:10.
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one more idea
Cptpinpin,
Have you considered a "Chicken gun"? I think that Nick is talking about it on the current thread [tail rotor construction].
An advantage of the Chicken gun is that if the bear is really, really big, you can use
British ammunition.
Have you considered a "Chicken gun"? I think that Nick is talking about it on the current thread [tail rotor construction].
An advantage of the Chicken gun is that if the bear is really, really big, you can use
British ammunition.
Gatvol
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Last summer a bear got in to my AS350 while I was having a sh... a couple of hundred feet away.
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Cptpinpin,
If you didn't learn the lesson from your AS350 incident, I never tire of telling the story of the biggest deer I ever shot, and the fact I had my trousers around my ankles at the time.
The lesson is, when in deer (bear) country, never be more than arms length from your rifle, which is loaded as soon as you depart camp (helicopter).
And as for bears, when in brown or grizzly country, I never leave home without my CZ550 safari in .416 Rigby. I find Woodleigh 410gr projectiles most effective, but you have to stoke them up to get good accuracy.
Mind you I shoot rabbits with a .375 H&H & 220gr speers.....
If you didn't learn the lesson from your AS350 incident, I never tire of telling the story of the biggest deer I ever shot, and the fact I had my trousers around my ankles at the time.
The lesson is, when in deer (bear) country, never be more than arms length from your rifle, which is loaded as soon as you depart camp (helicopter).
And as for bears, when in brown or grizzly country, I never leave home without my CZ550 safari in .416 Rigby. I find Woodleigh 410gr projectiles most effective, but you have to stoke them up to get good accuracy.
Mind you I shoot rabbits with a .375 H&H & 220gr speers.....
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I love the Chicken gun Idea
shoot the damn thing as far away as possible from the chopper,
let the bear chase it, run up to the helo
after pulling up your pants,
find the riffle, load it and shoot the chicken.
Did I get that right?
Hear any good chicken jokes lately?
By the way can anybody tell me how to insert photos in this forum.
It might also help vaqueroaero, he seems to have the same problem
as I of showing us his thing.
shoot the damn thing as far away as possible from the chopper,
let the bear chase it, run up to the helo
after pulling up your pants,
find the riffle, load it and shoot the chicken.
Did I get that right?
Hear any good chicken jokes lately?
By the way can anybody tell me how to insert photos in this forum.
It might also help vaqueroaero, he seems to have the same problem
as I of showing us his thing.
Last edited by cptpinpin; 15th Oct 2005 at 14:49.
Greetings From Hell's Dark Heart
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Back a page or so, someone posted a "defender " shotgun
Now maybe it is because I am a limp-wristed Brit and not a manly lumberjack/ex-marine/whatever, but what's it like firing a shotgun without a shoulder stock? Strikes me it would tend to give a very erratic grouping?
Me Granddad once let me shoot an antique (even then) 8-gauge shotgun loaded with birdshot. I still walk slightly turned to the right
Now maybe it is because I am a limp-wristed Brit and not a manly lumberjack/ex-marine/whatever, but what's it like firing a shotgun without a shoulder stock? Strikes me it would tend to give a very erratic grouping?
Me Granddad once let me shoot an antique (even then) 8-gauge shotgun loaded with birdshot. I still walk slightly turned to the right
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one handed
Firing a 12 guage one handed with/without a stock is quite achievable even without a pistol grip, just make sure you have grasped the stock appropriately - the recoil is obviously quite significant. The pistol-gripped variants are far more suitable for this more of operation (it's what they're designed for), and therebya lot less strain for the limper-wristed. 
(why they'd be using a shotgun is beyond me, try a feather duster)
Held at arms length,arm fully extended much like a pistol (& we're back to shotguns now ladies) usually affording the best results, the most common err I saw by most when using a pistol gripped variant (usually without a folding stock) is to attempt to site along the top of the barrel, & in doing so bring the rear of the receiver into facial proximity with the inevitable result, but dentists love them.
only the sort of thing one attempts when using shot other than solids, as you tend to be more intent of actually hitting the intended target, and usually at a greater range than those encountered in CQB conditions
... I miss my 'lady'
(why they'd be using a shotgun is beyond me, try a feather duster)Held at arms length,arm fully extended much like a pistol (& we're back to shotguns now ladies) usually affording the best results, the most common err I saw by most when using a pistol gripped variant (usually without a folding stock) is to attempt to site along the top of the barrel, & in doing so bring the rear of the receiver into facial proximity with the inevitable result, but dentists love them.
only the sort of thing one attempts when using shot other than solids, as you tend to be more intent of actually hitting the intended target, and usually at a greater range than those encountered in CQB conditions
... I miss my 'lady'
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maybe you should try the benelli shotgun, with a pistol grip stock and what they call the street sweeper in south africa!! It is a round mag that holds 25 shots!!! You might find it a bit hard to get into the country though, as most goverments don't like the sound off them!!
They are truly great fun to have a crack with and i know why they got there name from. The cops in south africa used them full off rubber bullets to dispearse crowds!!
They didn't aim, they just let rip and kept pulling the trigger as fast as possible!!!
This would be great with buckshot and then slugs alternatively to get the desired affect!!
They are truly great fun to have a crack with and i know why they got there name from. The cops in south africa used them full off rubber bullets to dispearse crowds!!
They didn't aim, they just let rip and kept pulling the trigger as fast as possible!!!
This would be great with buckshot and then slugs alternatively to get the desired affect!!