Fear of heights?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
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I believe it's a valid theory worth looking into.
Along those lines on occassion I can go down the beach at 100 feet or lower, if cruising along the beach at 75-80 Kias at that alt for a while, and you go back up to 500, for a few moments you get the same feeling as if you just shot up to 2000FT.
My CFI agrees with the general concensus. Knowing we may not routinely fly high, it's likely never really been looked at.
I stil have moments when I look down out the door at 500' at some buildings and get a shiver, brrr ...
Along those lines on occassion I can go down the beach at 100 feet or lower, if cruising along the beach at 75-80 Kias at that alt for a while, and you go back up to 500, for a few moments you get the same feeling as if you just shot up to 2000FT.
My CFI agrees with the general concensus. Knowing we may not routinely fly high, it's likely never really been looked at.
I stil have moments when I look down out the door at 500' at some buildings and get a shiver, brrr ...
I managed to fly a robbie over Mt Ruapehu during my training in NZ and distictly remember it taking forever to get to 10K. It was a lot easier climbing to that altitude referencing the volcano than when I climbed to 9,600 last year in the R22. I was doing a ferry from Alice Springs to Katherine and was so bored that I decided to play around with the altitude to find some reasonable tailwind and cooler temps (irrespective of the TAS of course...). Without the doors on you get very tense but it is just a state of mind. I found myself just about crushing the cyclic and had to force myself to relax and concentrate. I discovered on that day that 9600 is where you run into full pitch and full throttle..... 
. .Anyhow, the winds were better at 6000.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It was funny to watch the reactions of the mustering boys. Most have phobias about going over 500 agl and one I know goes everywhere at 200 agl. They were astounded that anyone would even try it. . .In the bigger machines I have no qualms at all with altitude and I take my hat off to the guys who fly paragliders, hanggliders and microlights at high altitude. Now thats crazy. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
. .Anyhow, the winds were better at 6000.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It was funny to watch the reactions of the mustering boys. Most have phobias about going over 500 agl and one I know goes everywhere at 200 agl. They were astounded that anyone would even try it. . .In the bigger machines I have no qualms at all with altitude and I take my hat off to the guys who fly paragliders, hanggliders and microlights at high altitude. Now thats crazy. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Australia
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Insteresting comments about Paragliders Steve76...considering I have some 400h+ paragliding in the French Alps, I always felt a little uneasy once the mountain proximity departed from below. It was standard practice to take off from 2400 metres height, climb another 1-2000 metres and soar for 2 to 4 hours. Felt pretty vulnerable then when you had some serious emptiness below you....but that was 9 years ago. I think that a little more maturity towards mortality could be the reason behind our shared growing concern towards heights in a helo <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Know what you mean by the height. I have a problem when taking parachutists up. Its fine at 7/8ooo ft having a chat to the guys standing on your skids. When they jump the aircraft bucks about a bit - then the feeling of being all alone no doors on wondering what is actually holding you up. Feeling goes away once back below 2000ft. I'm glad its not just me. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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I reckon there is a good case for a study of this.. .There is a lack of groundspeed reference at 10000, you could be doing 60 knots or 100 kts and it looks the same.
At altitude in the mountains around Indonesia its not a problem, the only thing you notice is the altimeter and the change of vne, t4 etc, but man, try ferrying it over the water at 13000ft, no way, not this little black duck, very uncomfortable.
At altitude in the mountains around Indonesia its not a problem, the only thing you notice is the altimeter and the change of vne, t4 etc, but man, try ferrying it over the water at 13000ft, no way, not this little black duck, very uncomfortable.
Yes, Him
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This is a well known phenomena in the aviation medical world (NB I'm not a medic or anything but wrote an article on this once).. .They call it "Dissociative sensations" aka the Break off or Breakaway phenomena. Many of the posts above contain the shrinking floor or balanced on a pin head description. This is what an avmed text book says (in part, it goes on for a good few pages). ."charactaristically likened to the aircraft being balanced on a knife edge or as if on top of a pin. Furthermore their [aircrew] anxiety is potentiated by the thought that the aircraft will topple from this unstable configuration and will fall out of the sky."
"Dissociative sensations are usually short lived and often disppear spontaneously when the pilot directs his attention to some other aspect of the flying task such as cockpit checks, a change of heading or an RT message"
Studies and surveys indicate that about 35% of pilots have experienced it. Fixed wing pilots get it at about 30,000ft and helo mates from 5000 to 10000ft says the book. .[Pg 310, Aviation Medicine, Ernst & Young]
So you're not nuts after all guys, well, maybe slightly loopy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
"Dissociative sensations are usually short lived and often disppear spontaneously when the pilot directs his attention to some other aspect of the flying task such as cockpit checks, a change of heading or an RT message"
Studies and surveys indicate that about 35% of pilots have experienced it. Fixed wing pilots get it at about 30,000ft and helo mates from 5000 to 10000ft says the book. .[Pg 310, Aviation Medicine, Ernst & Young]
So you're not nuts after all guys, well, maybe slightly loopy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Interesting to hear from so many people with this fear of heights. Over the years I’ve heard similar comments from many rotary wing pilots, but never from seized-wing types.
I have a slightly different problem. I have a fear of heights that makes it difficult to stand on a chair or climb a ladder, but it has never bothered me when I’m inside a cabin (rotary wing or otherwise). In my youth, I did one parachute job to try to work through this fear, and made a very interesting observation. Sitting on the floor of the Cessna, feet in the breeze at 1500 ft AGL, didn’t bother me at all. Most of the descent was no problem either. But at about 20 ft AGL I realized where I was, and basically flipped out. I can't remember the rest of the descent, and came to in a ball on the field, with the instructor standing over me asking if I was OK.
I saw a similar effect many years later as an FTE operating a winch on the BO105. Standing on the skid for the first part of the flight was nerve wracking, but once we got some altitude my fears went away, and I had no problem concentrating on the tasks at hand. This included a flight to 14,000 ft out of Leadville. I’ll never forget the view on that one.
I also had many flights to 20K ft in BO105s, BKs, and Aerostars. Again, loved the view, and the smooth air, and had no problems. By the way, my father who flew helicopters and fixed wing for many years, had the same fear of heights outside of the cabin. I never got to find out how he felt about parachute jumps. His theory was only crazy people jumped out of airplanes that were still working. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
I have a slightly different problem. I have a fear of heights that makes it difficult to stand on a chair or climb a ladder, but it has never bothered me when I’m inside a cabin (rotary wing or otherwise). In my youth, I did one parachute job to try to work through this fear, and made a very interesting observation. Sitting on the floor of the Cessna, feet in the breeze at 1500 ft AGL, didn’t bother me at all. Most of the descent was no problem either. But at about 20 ft AGL I realized where I was, and basically flipped out. I can't remember the rest of the descent, and came to in a ball on the field, with the instructor standing over me asking if I was OK.
I saw a similar effect many years later as an FTE operating a winch on the BO105. Standing on the skid for the first part of the flight was nerve wracking, but once we got some altitude my fears went away, and I had no problem concentrating on the tasks at hand. This included a flight to 14,000 ft out of Leadville. I’ll never forget the view on that one.
I also had many flights to 20K ft in BO105s, BKs, and Aerostars. Again, loved the view, and the smooth air, and had no problems. By the way, my father who flew helicopters and fixed wing for many years, had the same fear of heights outside of the cabin. I never got to find out how he felt about parachute jumps. His theory was only crazy people jumped out of airplanes that were still working. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Rob_L's post brings back a memory from from flight training.
Just after take off in the 150, my door pops open, leading to the following conversation:
Me: MY DOOR'S OPEN!. .Instructor: What are you going to do about it?. .Me: AH, AH, AH.... .Instructor: What are you doing right now?. .Me: Flying the airplane?. .Instructor: Exactly.
Just after take off in the 150, my door pops open, leading to the following conversation:
Me: MY DOOR'S OPEN!. .Instructor: What are you going to do about it?. .Me: AH, AH, AH.... .Instructor: What are you doing right now?. .Me: Flying the airplane?. .Instructor: Exactly.
I know that feeling when I'm way up on a ladder, etc., but not in an aircraft cabin. However, during my basic rotor training, at about 10 hours time, my instructor put us in a OGE hover at about 1000 AGL. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> Most unnerving. Must be the lack of airspeed. It just didn't look right to a plank flyer.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Just to add my 1/2 a euro worth(!)...
I have had similar expereinces to everyone else and when doing some 'mountain' flying in CA I felt distintly uncomfortable when flying across peaks and valleys - one minute you are 500'agl then 1500' - the horizon was very poor that day too and then moment I told my CFI I was feeling a bit 'uncomfortable' it immediately agreed and we returned to the more comfortable 1000' agl over flatter ground! Still after over 5 years and a couple of hundred hours PIC still prefer to fly around at 500 - 1500'!
I have had similar expereinces to everyone else and when doing some 'mountain' flying in CA I felt distintly uncomfortable when flying across peaks and valleys - one minute you are 500'agl then 1500' - the horizon was very poor that day too and then moment I told my CFI I was feeling a bit 'uncomfortable' it immediately agreed and we returned to the more comfortable 1000' agl over flatter ground! Still after over 5 years and a couple of hundred hours PIC still prefer to fly around at 500 - 1500'!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: up here I can't see a thing
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As a mere full time passenger, I also find it un-nerving, even though I sit in blissful ignorance of what is keeping us up most of the time. We operate almost exclusively around 800-1000' but on quiet nights, with Thames permission, wander up to 10000' to enjoy the view. Most un-nerving, and I can't wait to get back down.. .Recently watched a new film "Vertical Limits" where a UH1 allegedly lands climbers onto K2 at 26000', all without oxygen!
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Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.
However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat!!!!!!! Thats something else altogether, its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!
The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?
Fly safely ya alllllll.
However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat!!!!!!! Thats something else altogether, its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!
The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?
Fly safely ya alllllll.
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Thank god theres lots of us that have experianced it, not just me! I have flown in the Austrian alps up to 14k, no problem as the ground rises up with you, the only difference is performance.
However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat **** thats something else altogether. Its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!
The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?
Fly safely ya alllllll.
However flying parachutists up to 10k with the main door open and the jump leader hanging on to your flimsy seat back leaning out and moving the seat **** thats something else altogether. Its amazing how tight you can pull that lap strap. Also, try 10k AGL hovering with a narrow arc to observe on the ground. I really thought I was going to fall off!
The amazing thing is that repeating both experiances several times over a short period how quickly you can adjust and adapt to the new enviornment and begin to almost enjoy it. Or does that come under aviation masochism?
Fly safely ya alllllll.
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I recall flying through the Alps Maritimes from Cannes, heaving the old Robbie up past 6,000 feet (with two up, low RPM horn on a lot) then all of a sudden the ground fell away perhaps 4,000 feet into a valley. I experienced a most unpleasant sensation of floating, out of control. It persisted for quite a long time, and was so strong that i retrospect I think it might have been close to debilitating. I don't know. I couldn't take it down much because we had another ridge to cross, but after that I dumped it way, way down in the Rhone Valley and crept into Valence for a nice cup of tea. Next time, I'm going round the long way.
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Normal brain response i guess.
I once had to hover an AS350 first at 1,000feet then we moved up to 3,000feet, started to feel a bit uneasy, up to 6,000feet we went,now it didnt feel good at all. Finished at 10,000feet hovering for almost one hour. I was really uncomfortable, and its difficult to hold the aircraft still in a hover at that altitude, looong way to the nearest reference point. We were monitered by a radar and as soon as I started to move they would call up and ask us to hold still. After an hour of this I had a wet grip of the controlls and was really tired(squeeze). We decended down to 3,000feet again for another hover and wouldnt you belive it,it felt comfortable all of a sudden at that altitude. Normaly I fly att 1,000 feet and once you get up there its a whole new world.
I once had to hover an AS350 first at 1,000feet then we moved up to 3,000feet, started to feel a bit uneasy, up to 6,000feet we went,now it didnt feel good at all. Finished at 10,000feet hovering for almost one hour. I was really uncomfortable, and its difficult to hold the aircraft still in a hover at that altitude, looong way to the nearest reference point. We were monitered by a radar and as soon as I started to move they would call up and ask us to hold still. After an hour of this I had a wet grip of the controlls and was really tired(squeeze). We decended down to 3,000feet again for another hover and wouldnt you belive it,it felt comfortable all of a sudden at that altitude. Normaly I fly att 1,000 feet and once you get up there its a whole new world.
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Have to agree on this topic. It happened to me in my early years.
Flying an Army Kiowa on mapping survey over Cape York, FNQ. Dropped off a team and decided to climb to 10,000 on the way back to the other side of the Cape, just to see what it was like. Doors off, got to height and looked down - first time it ever struck me that I was sitting on the edge of a 10,000 foot drop-off <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> !!
Only similar feeling was flying past big Cu build-ups north of Darwin, looking down the side of the wall from 6-7,000. Makes you realise how small you really are.
But then, I'm scared of spiders as well.
Flying an Army Kiowa on mapping survey over Cape York, FNQ. Dropped off a team and decided to climb to 10,000 on the way back to the other side of the Cape, just to see what it was like. Doors off, got to height and looked down - first time it ever struck me that I was sitting on the edge of a 10,000 foot drop-off <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> !!
Only similar feeling was flying past big Cu build-ups north of Darwin, looking down the side of the wall from 6-7,000. Makes you realise how small you really are.
But then, I'm scared of spiders as well.
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The highest I ever managed in an R22 was FL100 with full throttle height at about 6700ft. It was a very wierd experience taking pitch off the whole way through the rest of the climb to maintain NR.. .I don't rememer being worried about the height but I was Sh**ing myself in case the engine quit.. .I've heard of people going above 20000ft in a Robbo which must take some fairly serious cohones and one of them was a woman!