The venerable Bell 47
Significant news or not ?
Bell Helicopter Announces Support Change for the Model 47
December 17, 2009
Bell Helicopter, today announced that Scott's Helicopter has assumed ownership of the Model 47 type certificate.
Beginning in the first quarter of 2010 all aspects of commercial spares support, technical support and continued airworthiness for the FAA type certificated Bell 47 helicopter (H-1, 2H1 and 2H3) will become the responsibility of Scott's Helicopters, a Bell-approved Customer Service Facility (CSF) located in Le Sueur, Minn.
Danny Maldonado, senior vice president and chief services officer at Bell, said, "This model really started the commercial helicopter business and Bell has a lot of heritage in the 47. However, we felt it was the best thing for our customers, and the 47, to transition ongoing support to Scott's Helicopter and we have every confidence that Scott's will continue to provide outstanding service and support."
Since its inception in 1946, the Bell 47 has transformed aviation and today remains an extremely viable aircraft with unparalleled capabilities, especially in pilot training and agricultural spraying operations. Most importantly, the Bell 47 has a dedicated and loyal customer following. Scott's brings a wealth of knowledge, experience and passion to this market. Bell acknowledges this expectation by leaving its name attached to the product; the model will be re-titled as "Scott's-Bell 47."
Bell continues to explore industry alliances with its worldwide network of approved Customer Service Facilities (CSFs) to improve the overall support and mission capabilities for its legacy products. The sale of the Model 47 type certificate is the first step in developing these alliances.
December 17, 2009
Bell Helicopter, today announced that Scott's Helicopter has assumed ownership of the Model 47 type certificate.
Beginning in the first quarter of 2010 all aspects of commercial spares support, technical support and continued airworthiness for the FAA type certificated Bell 47 helicopter (H-1, 2H1 and 2H3) will become the responsibility of Scott's Helicopters, a Bell-approved Customer Service Facility (CSF) located in Le Sueur, Minn.
Danny Maldonado, senior vice president and chief services officer at Bell, said, "This model really started the commercial helicopter business and Bell has a lot of heritage in the 47. However, we felt it was the best thing for our customers, and the 47, to transition ongoing support to Scott's Helicopter and we have every confidence that Scott's will continue to provide outstanding service and support."
Since its inception in 1946, the Bell 47 has transformed aviation and today remains an extremely viable aircraft with unparalleled capabilities, especially in pilot training and agricultural spraying operations. Most importantly, the Bell 47 has a dedicated and loyal customer following. Scott's brings a wealth of knowledge, experience and passion to this market. Bell acknowledges this expectation by leaving its name attached to the product; the model will be re-titled as "Scott's-Bell 47."
Bell continues to explore industry alliances with its worldwide network of approved Customer Service Facilities (CSFs) to improve the overall support and mission capabilities for its legacy products. The sale of the Model 47 type certificate is the first step in developing these alliances.
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Interesting?
Mr scroogle has nice things to say about them also.
I wonder what their attitude to things composite will be, both above and behind. also after market fan drives, engine baskets etc.
not a very big fleet is Scott's but like a company in OZ that I won't name when they turned up to put their bid in for one of the major motor car distibutorships here a few years back, ALL of the executives that were involved that day turned up in the latest model of the target company.
Mr scroogle has nice things to say about them also.
I wonder what their attitude to things composite will be, both above and behind. also after market fan drives, engine baskets etc.
not a very big fleet is Scott's but like a company in OZ that I won't name when they turned up to put their bid in for one of the major motor car distibutorships here a few years back, ALL of the executives that were involved that day turned up in the latest model of the target company.
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Can anyone shed any light on the effect the new owners of the type certificate will have on the future operability of the Bell 47?
e.g.
Will they make blades?
Will parts be cheaper than before?
What will change?
How will we be affected in Australia?
separately, do our recent Ozzy changes to AD issue, a la 'state of origin', mean we still get 5000hours out of grips with repet. eddy current checks? or have we moved to retirement at 1200hr with no repet. checks every 300hrs? What about PMA grips on an ozzie machine - are they are only good for 1200hrs in Oz and do we still have to do repet. eddy current checks.
Confused,
OOW
e.g.
Will they make blades?
Will parts be cheaper than before?
What will change?
How will we be affected in Australia?
separately, do our recent Ozzy changes to AD issue, a la 'state of origin', mean we still get 5000hours out of grips with repet. eddy current checks? or have we moved to retirement at 1200hr with no repet. checks every 300hrs? What about PMA grips on an ozzie machine - are they are only good for 1200hrs in Oz and do we still have to do repet. eddy current checks.
Confused,
OOW
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This is of interest for those of us concerned about future blade availability for the 47. Posted on the 47 Association's website.
6/1/09 NEW BELL 47 MAIN ROTOR BLADES
Howdy Bell 47 operators. This is a message from Brad Stahl and Mike Antoniou at Flight Sciences. We’re a small aircraft engineering company located in San Luis Obispo, California. We are currently restoring a beautiful 47 (it’s almost ready to fly). In that process, we’ve observed that main rotor blades are hard to come by and very expensive when bought new from Bell ($300K is the latest price we have). We’ve also observed that long lead times are involved in getting delivery. In addition, we understand that there are about +/- 700 Bell 47s still putting around out there.
Putting two and two together, we think there may be a market for new 47 Main Rotor Blades sold at the right price and with reasonable delivery times. We’re considering developing and FAA certifying these guys followed by production at our San Luis Obispo facility. Our preliminary estimates on blade characteristics, selling price, etc., are as follows:
[email protected]
6/1/09 NEW BELL 47 MAIN ROTOR BLADES
Howdy Bell 47 operators. This is a message from Brad Stahl and Mike Antoniou at Flight Sciences. We’re a small aircraft engineering company located in San Luis Obispo, California. We are currently restoring a beautiful 47 (it’s almost ready to fly). In that process, we’ve observed that main rotor blades are hard to come by and very expensive when bought new from Bell ($300K is the latest price we have). We’ve also observed that long lead times are involved in getting delivery. In addition, we understand that there are about +/- 700 Bell 47s still putting around out there.
Putting two and two together, we think there may be a market for new 47 Main Rotor Blades sold at the right price and with reasonable delivery times. We’re considering developing and FAA certifying these guys followed by production at our San Luis Obispo facility. Our preliminary estimates on blade characteristics, selling price, etc., are as follows:
Basic blade materials- Composite (mixture of carbon and fiberglass)
Blade shape- No change from the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade airfoils- No change from the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade weight- Lighter than the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade performance- Equal to or better than the certified Bell 47 blades (due to improved drag characteristics of composite surfaces).
Blade life- Initially 2000 hours shooting for infinite life based on flight test data.
Selling price- We believe that we can make a reasonable profit at a selling price in the $50K to $60K range (per blade set) while allowing us to amortize the substantial costs of FAA certification.
Initial availability- Mid 2010 with the capability to produce 5 blade sets per month.
Given the magnitude of the development and certification task (in terms of time, sweat and bucks), we thought it would be a good idea to get some feedback from you guys, the operators of these fine machines, before setting off down this road. So, the question is, what do you think about this? Would you be interested in purchasing these new main rotor blades assuming that we can deliver the characteristics approximately as listed? Any other comments? We’d truly appreciate hearing from you and we will get back to you.
Blade shape- No change from the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade airfoils- No change from the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade weight- Lighter than the certified Bell 47 blades.
Blade performance- Equal to or better than the certified Bell 47 blades (due to improved drag characteristics of composite surfaces).
Blade life- Initially 2000 hours shooting for infinite life based on flight test data.
Selling price- We believe that we can make a reasonable profit at a selling price in the $50K to $60K range (per blade set) while allowing us to amortize the substantial costs of FAA certification.
Initial availability- Mid 2010 with the capability to produce 5 blade sets per month.
Given the magnitude of the development and certification task (in terms of time, sweat and bucks), we thought it would be a good idea to get some feedback from you guys, the operators of these fine machines, before setting off down this road. So, the question is, what do you think about this? Would you be interested in purchasing these new main rotor blades assuming that we can deliver the characteristics approximately as listed? Any other comments? We’d truly appreciate hearing from you and we will get back to you.
[email protected]
(805) 781-3848
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Just a tip from my recollection of blade development , you should probably also try and match the weight to minimize any extra work in establishing auto rotative characteristics.Good luck
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I own a 47 and I think there should be a market here in Australia. We have many 47s on the Australian register.
However I would be even more excited if I heard they were going to be made out of metal in the conventional way.
Tail rotor blades are available in composite but I hear they are non repairable unlike the metal variety and they have a different 'feel'. Repairability to me is a big factor since i have already had a main blade 'saved' by an allowable repair.
If I were to buy composite main blades next time I could be convinced if I heard that the manufacturer had a good deal of experience with composite structures.
Why not enter the market building a metal tail rotor blade at less cost than Bell. I need a pair of those real soon!
OOW
However I would be even more excited if I heard they were going to be made out of metal in the conventional way.
Tail rotor blades are available in composite but I hear they are non repairable unlike the metal variety and they have a different 'feel'. Repairability to me is a big factor since i have already had a main blade 'saved' by an allowable repair.
If I were to buy composite main blades next time I could be convinced if I heard that the manufacturer had a good deal of experience with composite structures.
Why not enter the market building a metal tail rotor blade at less cost than Bell. I need a pair of those real soon!
OOW
Last edited by outofwhack; 16th Mar 2010 at 16:07. Reason: Clarity
I notice that the date of that memo from Brad Stahl was June, 2009. Let's look at their website:
Flight Sciences - The Persuit Of Excellence In Flight
If not in spelling...
It's pursuit, boys.
The company's main focus seems to be their fledgling airplane design, the...umm...Phoenix.
(Mel Brooks voice: Again with the Phoenix! Oy vey, how many times will people use this name for their aircraft?)
Let us hope that changes before it gets too far along.
Anyways, the company appears to be just three people. Or maybe three guys and a wife (sounds like the title of a bad American sitcom). Perhaps they looked into building a composite version of the Bell 47 main rotor blade. And perhaps they ran up against the big stone wall of FAA certification. Hmm, if they thought certifying a composite blade for an existing aircraft design was going to be easy... No wonder they've gone back to focusing on their...umm...Phoenix.
And hey, if we wanted a helicopter with a composite, light weight, low-inertia rotor system, we'd all be flying R-22's!
Oh wait, we are.
Flight Sciences - The Persuit Of Excellence In Flight
If not in spelling...
It's pursuit, boys.
The company's main focus seems to be their fledgling airplane design, the...umm...Phoenix.
(Mel Brooks voice: Again with the Phoenix! Oy vey, how many times will people use this name for their aircraft?) Let us hope that changes before it gets too far along.
Anyways, the company appears to be just three people. Or maybe three guys and a wife (sounds like the title of a bad American sitcom). Perhaps they looked into building a composite version of the Bell 47 main rotor blade. And perhaps they ran up against the big stone wall of FAA certification. Hmm, if they thought certifying a composite blade for an existing aircraft design was going to be easy... No wonder they've gone back to focusing on their...umm...Phoenix.
And hey, if we wanted a helicopter with a composite, light weight, low-inertia rotor system, we'd all be flying R-22's!
Oh wait, we are.
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I had an idea there already was an outfit delving into that very product, here in OZ, eastside.
Re blade weight, I am not sure that I would be too keen to experiment with the relevant coning angles at current AUW for the '47 with light weight blades.
R22's, composite???
it's a wonder someone hasn't responded with something ribald, if only they were that good. metal - yes they are, tin?? + glue + paint??
, yeah lots of paint.
That's the composite.
i never could work out why the FH1100 didn't knock off the jetranger for the LOH. it's DA performance puts the other well into the shade.
and speaking of phoenix, how many of those versions are still around?
spare parts etc???
Re blade weight, I am not sure that I would be too keen to experiment with the relevant coning angles at current AUW for the '47 with light weight blades.
R22's, composite???
it's a wonder someone hasn't responded with something ribald, if only they were that good. metal - yes they are, tin?? + glue + paint??
, yeah lots of paint. That's the composite.i never could work out why the FH1100 didn't knock off the jetranger for the LOH. it's DA performance puts the other well into the shade.
and speaking of phoenix, how many of those versions are still around?
spare parts etc???
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I run a small Company that has done helicopter engineering for 23 years and though we haven't delved into main rotor blade development, we have tested new tail rotor blades for the 205/UH-1 series. I can tell you that it was a mess. Unless one clones the exact MRB design, including airfoil profile, weight distribution, and construction, the development effort and costs will be horrible. Even if the blades are lighter, stronger, cheaper to build, the dynamics, proof of service life, and aerodynamics will eat significant dollars. Just for one example among several, consider what the lighter blades will do to autorotation performance and the H-V chart.
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Agree with darkhorse except for one point , construction . If you can clone the blade so it has the same stiffness ( both in twist and bending ) I would think you could minmize the flight testing. However the structural testing would included a full spectrum fatigue test to validate the life of the blade , possibly some coupon testing of samples that have been exposed to high temp and humidity for some length of time and enormous product liability insurance.
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/5D9AF416E0AE9121CA2575DA000884C6/$file/BELL47102.pdf
Shows a section of the blade , i assume fairly close to the root . It appears to consist of a metal ( alum ) D spar , a nose weight , fibreglass or bonded metal trailing edge with a small secondary spar . To do and exact copy may have some problems with the procurement of the adhesives that may no longer be available. Of course if someone had access to the original tooling and process sheets the adhesive becomes less of a problem . Did the company that took over the TC also get the tooling ?
Scott’s Helicopter Gets Bell 47 Type Certificate | VTOLBLOG
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/5D9AF416E0AE9121CA2575DA000884C6/$file/BELL47102.pdf
Shows a section of the blade , i assume fairly close to the root . It appears to consist of a metal ( alum ) D spar , a nose weight , fibreglass or bonded metal trailing edge with a small secondary spar . To do and exact copy may have some problems with the procurement of the adhesives that may no longer be available. Of course if someone had access to the original tooling and process sheets the adhesive becomes less of a problem . Did the company that took over the TC also get the tooling ?
Scott’s Helicopter Gets Bell 47 Type Certificate | VTOLBLOG
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OK, thinking outside of the box here...
There must be some tooling around at Bell for making these blades, what if all the 47 owners in the world were to form a company and purchase the tooling from Bell, there must be a couple of hundred 47's still flying, each owner could put in an ammount of cash then they would have a share in the resultant company, I would imagine the material to make the blades is, in the scheme of things reletavly cheap, most of the cost would be for initial development and insurance, but if the blades on your machine were produced by a company that you had shares in, you could waive the product liability insurance, hence reducing the cost, and as you part own the company you could get blades at cost...? I am sure 47 blade manufacture is probably a thorn in the side to Bell so they might be willing to off load the tooling - maybe with a person that knows how to make them, could be a wonderfull marketing tool for Bell - "look how we still support the 47" sort of thing?
I'll get my coat.
Kev.
There must be some tooling around at Bell for making these blades, what if all the 47 owners in the world were to form a company and purchase the tooling from Bell, there must be a couple of hundred 47's still flying, each owner could put in an ammount of cash then they would have a share in the resultant company, I would imagine the material to make the blades is, in the scheme of things reletavly cheap, most of the cost would be for initial development and insurance, but if the blades on your machine were produced by a company that you had shares in, you could waive the product liability insurance, hence reducing the cost, and as you part own the company you could get blades at cost...? I am sure 47 blade manufacture is probably a thorn in the side to Bell so they might be willing to off load the tooling - maybe with a person that knows how to make them, could be a wonderfull marketing tool for Bell - "look how we still support the 47" sort of thing?
I'll get my coat.
Kev.
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kevin_mayes
I like your ideas or anything similar to keep the 47 flying. The helicopter itself still fulfills a role in the industry , the problem is the lack of factory support. If the Bell factory no longer wants the hassle they should hand it over to someone who does.
I agree the limited liability and lower insurance for group ownership would be very significant in lowering costs.
On a side note there had been some news last year that the Hiller 12 design was purchased by China with plans to put it back into production. Something like $80 million invested but I have heard no news lately.
A glimmer of hope that these older models may live on.
I like your ideas or anything similar to keep the 47 flying. The helicopter itself still fulfills a role in the industry , the problem is the lack of factory support. If the Bell factory no longer wants the hassle they should hand it over to someone who does.
I agree the limited liability and lower insurance for group ownership would be very significant in lowering costs.
On a side note there had been some news last year that the Hiller 12 design was purchased by China with plans to put it back into production. Something like $80 million invested but I have heard no news lately.
A glimmer of hope that these older models may live on.
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Arnie,
Bell has transferred the rights to the B47 to Scott's Helicopter Service in Minn. I talked with a couple of the people from Scott's at HeliExpo this year. They have and will continue to support the 47. They may or may not restart production, depending on demand.
Bell has transferred the rights to the B47 to Scott's Helicopter Service in Minn. I talked with a couple of the people from Scott's at HeliExpo this year. They have and will continue to support the 47. They may or may not restart production, depending on demand.
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Rick & Arnie.
Does that meen that Scott's have the tooling or did that stay with Bell I wonder, think I'll fire off an email later today to Scotts' and try to find out, Iv'e got to speak to them as I am going to need a new engine mount in the next couple of hundred hours or so.
Kev.
Does that meen that Scott's have the tooling or did that stay with Bell I wonder, think I'll fire off an email later today to Scotts' and try to find out, Iv'e got to speak to them as I am going to need a new engine mount in the next couple of hundred hours or so.
Kev.
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Kevin,
Are you talking about the engine mount frame or the mount itself. Scott's very likely has some engine mount frames available already. As for the engine mounts, I believe they were made by Lord and they were an OEM item. With this transfer I do not know their present status.
Are you talking about the engine mount frame or the mount itself. Scott's very likely has some engine mount frames available already. As for the engine mounts, I believe they were made by Lord and they were an OEM item. With this transfer I do not know their present status.
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Hi, RicK
Its the frame itself, mind you the rubber mounts will get changed as well, I did the lower rubber mounts last month at huge expense for a simple part.
The frame only has 168 hours remaining, mind you that could be two or three years flying for me...
I see Texas Heli make a PMA part, but I'm not sure if I can use a PMA part here in the UK, having said that the fan belts are PMA and put on by the maintenance company...
Cheers
Kevin.
Its the frame itself, mind you the rubber mounts will get changed as well, I did the lower rubber mounts last month at huge expense for a simple part.
The frame only has 168 hours remaining, mind you that could be two or three years flying for me...
I see Texas Heli make a PMA part, but I'm not sure if I can use a PMA part here in the UK, having said that the fan belts are PMA and put on by the maintenance company...
Cheers
Kevin.