The venerable Bell 47
I think that's the Canadian Home Rotors Safari, helicopter, formerly called the Baby Belle, until BHC complained.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Wont start!
I am having trouble start my 47. Quite unusual.
Temperature is 9celcius (48F), engine is Lyc 435 and have gone through 2 full battery charges trying to start it with various amounts of prime. Fuels getting though as can see it dripping from carb.
I get the occasional fire and run for less than a second and can hear the Bendix buzzing nicely. The bendix shower of sparks was new 170hours ago. Turning the blades manually doesnt seem to help.
I know some operators use fan assisted gas burners to preheat the engine in cold weather but I would have never thought I might need until it got very cold.
Any ideas?
OOW
Temperature is 9celcius (48F), engine is Lyc 435 and have gone through 2 full battery charges trying to start it with various amounts of prime. Fuels getting though as can see it dripping from carb.
I get the occasional fire and run for less than a second and can hear the Bendix buzzing nicely. The bendix shower of sparks was new 170hours ago. Turning the blades manually doesnt seem to help.
I know some operators use fan assisted gas burners to preheat the engine in cold weather but I would have never thought I might need until it got very cold.
Any ideas?
OOW
I used to give mine about 15 primes in Cold weather and it would start most times.
Sometimes, I would have to let it cut out and then start it again and again to get it going but I never ran out of battery.
You know you can start it on full throttle and roll it back when it starts to fire, good for flooded starts.
It's been a while since I have started one though. Good luck with it
Sometimes, I would have to let it cut out and then start it again and again to get it going but I never ran out of battery.
You know you can start it on full throttle and roll it back when it starts to fire, good for flooded starts.
It's been a while since I have started one though. Good luck with it
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Carb Heat
OOW- Have your tried pulling the carb heat down half way, it acts like a choke. We have 210 Franklin's and that works for that. Also when it gets chilly it will not start unless you pre heat it. For us 3 primes, carb heat half way down, and it fires into life!
Hope that helps. Call George Kramer at East Coast Helicopters, Gettysburg, PA. His knowledge is exceptional on these,
Darren
Hope that helps. Call George Kramer at East Coast Helicopters, Gettysburg, PA. His knowledge is exceptional on these,
Darren
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Stick your nose in your exhaust pipe or pipes and sniff. If you cannot smell fuel prime hell out of it with the lever up for the full shot, the throttle prime pump in the carby may be half stuffed.
47's set up for very cold conditions used to have a separate electric prime pump mounted on the rear cover plate of the engine which used to inject raw fuel, heaps of it, straight into the intake manifold after the carby.
If you can smell fuel and it does not go, then pull your rear spark plugs out and check that there is no condensation on them. 9C OAT is a good temp for that to happen, with just a tad of moisture amount. if there is then pull them all out, cycle the donk a bit with fuel (Mixture) off throttle wide open, clean the plugs, re-install and prime again.
If it still does not go and its a G5 with the little red shower of sparks gadget right behind the firewall on the stbd side, then get someone to show you which two wires to pull off so that it may start on the mags alone. from memeory I think it was the L and R labelled ones.
sometimes the shower of sparks makes good noises but alas there's no one at home.
Usually its more fuel and some.
it may be nothing to do with the cold as Ringer suggests. if it is flooding, fuel (should have been mixture) off and try a flooded start. fuel dripping out is a clue here.
47's set up for very cold conditions used to have a separate electric prime pump mounted on the rear cover plate of the engine which used to inject raw fuel, heaps of it, straight into the intake manifold after the carby.
If you can smell fuel and it does not go, then pull your rear spark plugs out and check that there is no condensation on them. 9C OAT is a good temp for that to happen, with just a tad of moisture amount. if there is then pull them all out, cycle the donk a bit with fuel (Mixture) off throttle wide open, clean the plugs, re-install and prime again.
If it still does not go and its a G5 with the little red shower of sparks gadget right behind the firewall on the stbd side, then get someone to show you which two wires to pull off so that it may start on the mags alone. from memeory I think it was the L and R labelled ones.
sometimes the shower of sparks makes good noises but alas there's no one at home.
Usually its more fuel and some.
it may be nothing to do with the cold as Ringer suggests. if it is flooding, fuel (should have been mixture) off and try a flooded start. fuel dripping out is a clue here.
Last edited by topendtorque; 25th May 2009 at 11:23.
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If its like mine and fuel drips from the carb its got a stuck float valve and will only fire once than stop, turn off fuel, drain the fuel from the carb, or let the drips stop, make a cup of tea, turn on fuel and ensure that no fuel is dripping then try and start wothout prime (as there is still loads of fuel around).
Very occasionally this happens even though its a brand new carb?
Kevin.
Very occasionally this happens even though its a brand new carb?
Kevin.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Kevin,
Your tip is my second to last hope and will precede purchasing a petrol burner to preheat the engine. My money is on you.
Never saw this operating in Australia but NZ is quite a lot colder. Might buy a calibrated hammer to encourage the carb too. I did hit the helicopter with a small calibrated stick today but nowhere near the carb.
I will try that tomorrow and report.
I hope your suggestion of 'draining the carb' is a matter of just waiting while drinking the cuppa or is there a manual procedure. Luckily there is a cafe near the hangar.
Chargers on for the third night running.
OOW
Your tip is my second to last hope and will precede purchasing a petrol burner to preheat the engine. My money is on you.
Never saw this operating in Australia but NZ is quite a lot colder. Might buy a calibrated hammer to encourage the carb too. I did hit the helicopter with a small calibrated stick today but nowhere near the carb.
I will try that tomorrow and report.
I hope your suggestion of 'draining the carb' is a matter of just waiting while drinking the cuppa or is there a manual procedure. Luckily there is a cafe near the hangar.
Chargers on for the third night running.
OOW
Join Date: Feb 2005
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What do you think is an acceptable and fair price for a BH47 in Europe?
I've heard that blades can now be sourced for around $8-$9 US per hour.
I was offered a smick G3B-2A1 @ AU $285k recently. new bubble, zero everything.
little gentleman thinks he's got my name on it already. ha hah.
I was looking for something to put Kivin's $900.00 handout check toward too. mrs tet got a new dishwasher with hers.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Silly question...silly answer... 
GBP10k to GBP80k dependant on component hours left and a small amount for tidyness (oh and a mortgage for fuel)
or the same as in the rest of the world plus GBP4k pack shipping and no doubt 2k to 5k for putting it on the register of your choice.
Just make sure there's no Kawasaki components on it like gearbox or blades as these may not be acceptable by the authority in your country.
OOW
p.s.if it ex military it will probably be cheaper as it will never get on a public CofA
GBP10k to GBP80k dependant on component hours left and a small amount for tidyness (oh and a mortgage for fuel)
or the same as in the rest of the world plus GBP4k pack shipping and no doubt 2k to 5k for putting it on the register of your choice.
Just make sure there's no Kawasaki components on it like gearbox or blades as these may not be acceptable by the authority in your country.
OOW
p.s.if it ex military it will probably be cheaper as it will never get on a public CofA
According to the bluebook we can divide between high, mid and low timers. GBP10k must be for sure a wreckage or the trash price instead for a helicopter. If you know the spare prices it seems unbelievable to buy for 10k.
Got some offers, all high timers, but nothing below 100k Euro in flyable condition.
Soloy upgrades simply not to get below 200k.
Euro or GPB makes no real difference after the fall of the GPB. At least not more than the disassembling/transport.
Btw, i like the BH47 as the best spraying device ever. Best downwash for application and best safety for the pilot while flying extrem low. And the funniest spray turns ever!
Got some offers, all high timers, but nothing below 100k Euro in flyable condition.
Soloy upgrades simply not to get below 200k.
Euro or GPB makes no real difference after the fall of the GPB. At least not more than the disassembling/transport.
Btw, i like the BH47 as the best spraying device ever. Best downwash for application and best safety for the pilot while flying extrem low. And the funniest spray turns ever!
Last edited by tecpilot; 25th May 2009 at 12:33.
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Yes, sorry, I didnt elaborate but for GBP10k there would few hours left on the main components and it would need serious money spending on it and if you had to buy anything new (i.e couldnt find second hand) with the new bell price book the project would most likely be unviable.
The cheapest flyable machine I have seen in Oz went for AUD$80k and was an absolute steal with perhaps 250hours left on engine and 2000 left on blades and a variety of hours on other components but the full blade history wasnt traceable so it might, one day, fall foul of providence rules like they have in the UK. Its very important to ensure you have a full history otherwise it could get very disappointing.
A mid time ship (half way through its 1200hour period between majors) would fetch about AUD$160k and fresh out of 1200hourly with nothing due in that time must fetch AUD$250k or more in my experience with the Ozzie market.
There at least 60 Bell 47s on the register in Oz.
Hope this sheds light on what you want to know.
OOW
The cheapest flyable machine I have seen in Oz went for AUD$80k and was an absolute steal with perhaps 250hours left on engine and 2000 left on blades and a variety of hours on other components but the full blade history wasnt traceable so it might, one day, fall foul of providence rules like they have in the UK. Its very important to ensure you have a full history otherwise it could get very disappointing.
A mid time ship (half way through its 1200hour period between majors) would fetch about AUD$160k and fresh out of 1200hourly with nothing due in that time must fetch AUD$250k or more in my experience with the Ozzie market.
There at least 60 Bell 47s on the register in Oz.
Hope this sheds light on what you want to know.
OOW
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Still no luck with getting a start after knocking the carb. Any more ideas would be greatly appreciated?
Recall:
Temperature 7 degrees Celcius (48F)
It does fire but only for half a second after a lot of priming.
I can get it to the point where I see fuel dripping from the carb.
I can hear the bendix vibrator screeching.
Tried QuickStart (ether) direct into carb.
Tried full open throttle start in readiness to close quickly.
I'll take the plugs out tomorrow and inspect and put fresh fuel in.
Will preheat the engine with electric heater.
Might also purchase a couple of car batteries to boost the 24v GIL.
If I was going to look for a vibrator enhanced spark from a plug which one would should I pull ? Do I disconnect the starter for this test?
OOW
Recall:
Temperature 7 degrees Celcius (48F)
It does fire but only for half a second after a lot of priming.
I can get it to the point where I see fuel dripping from the carb.
I can hear the bendix vibrator screeching.
Tried QuickStart (ether) direct into carb.
Tried full open throttle start in readiness to close quickly.
I'll take the plugs out tomorrow and inspect and put fresh fuel in.
Will preheat the engine with electric heater.
Might also purchase a couple of car batteries to boost the 24v GIL.
If I was going to look for a vibrator enhanced spark from a plug which one would should I pull ? Do I disconnect the starter for this test?
OOW
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I'm not an aircraft engineer but I've had a similar starting problem on one of my jeeps and it turned out to be a couple of loose bolts at the base of the carburettor , you may want to check for air leaks in the intake system.
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Stripped Mag gears
OOW. Like above I am no mechnic, however, its seems like you have fuel. How about a spark?
We had a spate of going through mag gear teeth, could it be that, weak spark at the points?
Again, I'm really just throwing stuff out there.
Hope your well
Darren
We had a spate of going through mag gear teeth, could it be that, weak spark at the points?
Again, I'm really just throwing stuff out there.
Hope your well
Darren
Join Date: Apr 2004
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More clues:
I have not yet smelled fuel at the exhaust but it certainly is in the carb.
I have seen a little water out of the exhaust.
It did sit for a week with 40litrews in the tanks so I have drained that and will replace with fresh fuel first thing.
Thanks for the support. Good job I am not working it for a living at the moment
I have not yet smelled fuel at the exhaust but it certainly is in the carb.
I have seen a little water out of the exhaust.
It did sit for a week with 40litrews in the tanks so I have drained that and will replace with fresh fuel first thing.
Thanks for the support. Good job I am not working it for a living at the moment
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if you have a mixture control and use it for shut down, make sure that it is not just looking good with the lever in the right place but is good without a twist or kink in the cable at or near the carby. it may be still shut down thus not allowing the engine to run but your prime is still encouraging a short run.
I think I would stay away from the ether.
you are lucky that you are not in the boonies doing this with a flat battery but using the crank handle.
Did that one day for an hour forty five minutes, and was about to give up to walk about twenty K when the damm thing fired and ran and i nearly didn't have the energy to get to the starter vibrator option switch.
I think I would stay away from the ether.
you are lucky that you are not in the boonies doing this with a flat battery but using the crank handle.
Did that one day for an hour forty five minutes, and was about to give up to walk about twenty K when the damm thing fired and ran and i nearly didn't have the energy to get to the starter vibrator option switch.
In the dim recesses of the mind...
I don't have a whole lot of Bell 47 time, but I do have some - mostly in the G-2 with the Lycoming 435. Having said that, I never remember using, and never remember any other pilot using the "starter vibrator" switch (or whatever it was labled) on the panel. Mostly, we used to prime the hell out of them (four or five good runs up and down with the throttle), leave the mags off, engage the starter, then switch to "both" after a couple of revolutions. Started right up!
Alternatively, I knew guys who would start their ships on the right or left mag (I forget) and then go to "both" after it lit.
In the winter, during very cold weather (like below 30F), the engines would sometimes briefly fire up for a moment, but the condensation on the plugs would then freeze and the engine would die until preheated. (At least, that's what the mechanics told us was happening. Even it it wasn't technically true, preheat was a must at that point. If it fired but quickly died, it would *never* go again. You'd run the battery down or crank forever with a battery cart. We learned the hard way to just roll 'em back inside and heat 'em.)
Like I say, I often asked pilots with a lot more 47 time than me what that "start vib" switch was on the dash. Nobody knew, because nobody used it.
And our 47's always seemed to start.
Alternatively, I knew guys who would start their ships on the right or left mag (I forget) and then go to "both" after it lit.
In the winter, during very cold weather (like below 30F), the engines would sometimes briefly fire up for a moment, but the condensation on the plugs would then freeze and the engine would die until preheated. (At least, that's what the mechanics told us was happening. Even it it wasn't technically true, preheat was a must at that point. If it fired but quickly died, it would *never* go again. You'd run the battery down or crank forever with a battery cart. We learned the hard way to just roll 'em back inside and heat 'em.)
Like I say, I often asked pilots with a lot more 47 time than me what that "start vib" switch was on the dash. Nobody knew, because nobody used it.
And our 47's always seemed to start.
OOW,
Forgive me, I do not understand, do you not have a maintenance organisation signing off your machine, have you not contacted them? Usually, the first Immediate Action with piston engine problems is to change the plugs, I did this with a G5 which wouldn't start and it worked.
Your fuel does not need to be replaced if you have carried out water checks. What is the history of this problem, when did it last run normally? What has happened maintenance wise since then?
Forgive me, I do not understand, do you not have a maintenance organisation signing off your machine, have you not contacted them? Usually, the first Immediate Action with piston engine problems is to change the plugs, I did this with a G5 which wouldn't start and it worked.
Your fuel does not need to be replaced if you have carried out water checks. What is the history of this problem, when did it last run normally? What has happened maintenance wise since then?