CRM courses
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab,
The requirement to do CRM comes from the Belgrano - send your torpedos their way. They have a very half-baked logic about single pilot helicopters and CRM, but we in the civi world can't ignore them sadly.
In any case, the way that a single pilot organises himself in the cockpit, is worthy of some consideration. Also the way that the pilot relates to ops, engineers, ATC, self-loading freight, ground handlers. In lots of ways these issues for single pilots are more critical, because he does not have a second crew.
I did approach the CAA some while ago for guidance about single crew CRM - not a dicky bird from them, although they insist it has to be done. So I went on doing what I thought was common sense in line and continuation training. The only publication I ever found about single crew CRM was a US seminar pack published by the FAA/HAI (as I recall). Anybody got any other leads on this??
NR Fairy - the telephone number is correct. John was esssentially a single-hander; it may be that he has moved to something diifferent or retired ............ Let me dig a bit more and see what else I can find.
The requirement to do CRM comes from the Belgrano - send your torpedos their way. They have a very half-baked logic about single pilot helicopters and CRM, but we in the civi world can't ignore them sadly.
In any case, the way that a single pilot organises himself in the cockpit, is worthy of some consideration. Also the way that the pilot relates to ops, engineers, ATC, self-loading freight, ground handlers. In lots of ways these issues for single pilots are more critical, because he does not have a second crew.
I did approach the CAA some while ago for guidance about single crew CRM - not a dicky bird from them, although they insist it has to be done. So I went on doing what I thought was common sense in line and continuation training. The only publication I ever found about single crew CRM was a US seminar pack published by the FAA/HAI (as I recall). Anybody got any other leads on this??
NR Fairy - the telephone number is correct. John was esssentially a single-hander; it may be that he has moved to something diifferent or retired ............ Let me dig a bit more and see what else I can find.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Both Hemisphere's...Unfortunately
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh you old Cabby one!
There are an increasing number of "Crew" single pilot operations cropping up around the world.
These are mostly EMS / SAR multi-engine helicopters with a crew compliment of a mix of Crewman and Medical / Paramedical Officers.
Each one is depending on each other to undertake certain roles around any task. Being single pilot really makes the CRM [Human Factors] more critical, as the pilot is relying on other "Non" aviator aircrew to fulfill a vital role.
Follow the following link and look at Case # 200102083, particularly the section "Conclusion" towards the bottom of the document.
www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/index.cfm
These are mostly EMS / SAR multi-engine helicopters with a crew compliment of a mix of Crewman and Medical / Paramedical Officers.
Each one is depending on each other to undertake certain roles around any task. Being single pilot really makes the CRM [Human Factors] more critical, as the pilot is relying on other "Non" aviator aircrew to fulfill a vital role.
Follow the following link and look at Case # 200102083, particularly the section "Conclusion" towards the bottom of the document.
www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/index.cfm
While I would not claim to be a total disciple of CRM, I thought we were supposed to include hosties, engineers, ops staff, cleaning ladies etc within the CRM umbrella nowadays!
TeeS
TeeS
212man :
You're quite correct. However the home page - http://www.bristowtraining.com/index.html - says "NO COURSES AVAILABLE, EXCEPT JAA APPROVED INSTRUMENT RATING", their capitals not mine.
I'm awaiting a reply from the training department at Dyce to get the real hot poop rather than that promulgated on a website.
You're quite correct. However the home page - http://www.bristowtraining.com/index.html - says "NO COURSES AVAILABLE, EXCEPT JAA APPROVED INSTRUMENT RATING", their capitals not mine.
I'm awaiting a reply from the training department at Dyce to get the real hot poop rather than that promulgated on a website.
Ah, Crab you've been in the mil for far too long.
In the real world, CRM is a vital element to flight safety, I would suggest single pilot ops is an area that benefits particularly well from CRM because there is no other "crewman" there to monitor your peculiar habits
Single pilot ops CRM training targets those areas where mixing with 'non aviators' is a particularly weak area. I would suggest there is more cockpit mismanagement within the 4 walls of a single pilot 'office' than a multi crew facility...think about it!
Having said all that, the crabs don't do proper CRM do they, spoke to the Griffin crews who flew in here yesterday and they admit the RAF don't understand it.
It is an excellent vehicle for identifying trends, both from within (the individual) and without (the aviation environment).
In the real world, CRM is a vital element to flight safety, I would suggest single pilot ops is an area that benefits particularly well from CRM because there is no other "crewman" there to monitor your peculiar habits
Single pilot ops CRM training targets those areas where mixing with 'non aviators' is a particularly weak area. I would suggest there is more cockpit mismanagement within the 4 walls of a single pilot 'office' than a multi crew facility...think about it!
Having said all that, the crabs don't do proper CRM do they, spoke to the Griffin crews who flew in here yesterday and they admit the RAF don't understand it.
It is an excellent vehicle for identifying trends, both from within (the individual) and without (the aviation environment).
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,159
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
I used to have an approved one of these way back when, for single-engined people, helicopter or otherwise. For all I know it's still valid - does anyone know who to contact within the CAA to find out?
It looks like there is a need for such a service - if it is still valid, or I can get it revalidated, I do visit UK quite regularly and can run a few.
Phil
It looks like there is a need for such a service - if it is still valid, or I can get it revalidated, I do visit UK quite regularly and can run a few.
Phil
Errrr ..........I was taking the pi** chaps. no need to get serious.
As for Griffin crews - well they're not exactly operational are they?
The only reason that the RAF seems out of touch with CRM is that captaincy and crew cooperation have been taught as basic airmanship principles for so long that having them repackaged and rebranded as CRM seemed another case of unnecessary empire building.
If you want to see military CRM in action then get rescued by your local SAR flight.
As for Griffin crews - well they're not exactly operational are they?
The only reason that the RAF seems out of touch with CRM is that captaincy and crew cooperation have been taught as basic airmanship principles for so long that having them repackaged and rebranded as CRM seemed another case of unnecessary empire building.
If you want to see military CRM in action then get rescued by your local SAR flight.
Crab: copied your last 
Let's take this CRM thing a little further, for research purposes you understand!
Civvy CRM is vastly different from mil (crew bonding) training. It's a fact that Officers and NCO's don't mix as well as they should...the RAF is probably the biggest culprit in this regard. Be honest, when was the last time any Officer went down to the hangar to take a keen interest in the a/c he or she was about to fly in??? Never - I've been there done that.
You 'assume' everything will be OK because those 'chappies' are paid to do the job -yes?
I remember once on a SAR sqdn I was on where a Seaking lifted into the hover and shook itself to bits. Why?...
The a/c had its tail rotor removed and the blades replaced before re installing. The maintainer who put the blades back on, put one of them on back to front, his second signatory missed the cock up, then when he signed up the tech log, the chief didn't check the finished job. On the line, the co-pilot who's menial task it was to do a 'walkaround' missed the back to front blade, then the Commander walked out and jumped in!!!
Could this have happened in an outfit where CRM affects EVERYONE and perhaps produces a more cohesive team.
The point is, CRM isn't just about the immediate 'crew' getting it together, it is about monitoring trends, getting involved with engineers, looking at weak spots throughout your operation from workshop to in flight. It is the 'big picture' and in hindsight, the mil "play at it" to some extent, partly because of this us and them attitude (there are many other aspects, too).
Do you know/care how your chief mechanic feels this morning????? He is about to certify your a/c as fit to fly.....
A civvy CRM consultant would have a field day in the mil...it would be a job for life!
Let's take this CRM thing a little further, for research purposes you understand!
Civvy CRM is vastly different from mil (crew bonding) training. It's a fact that Officers and NCO's don't mix as well as they should...the RAF is probably the biggest culprit in this regard. Be honest, when was the last time any Officer went down to the hangar to take a keen interest in the a/c he or she was about to fly in??? Never - I've been there done that.
You 'assume' everything will be OK because those 'chappies' are paid to do the job -yes?
I remember once on a SAR sqdn I was on where a Seaking lifted into the hover and shook itself to bits. Why?...
The a/c had its tail rotor removed and the blades replaced before re installing. The maintainer who put the blades back on, put one of them on back to front, his second signatory missed the cock up, then when he signed up the tech log, the chief didn't check the finished job. On the line, the co-pilot who's menial task it was to do a 'walkaround' missed the back to front blade, then the Commander walked out and jumped in!!!
Could this have happened in an outfit where CRM affects EVERYONE and perhaps produces a more cohesive team.
The point is, CRM isn't just about the immediate 'crew' getting it together, it is about monitoring trends, getting involved with engineers, looking at weak spots throughout your operation from workshop to in flight. It is the 'big picture' and in hindsight, the mil "play at it" to some extent, partly because of this us and them attitude (there are many other aspects, too).
Do you know/care how your chief mechanic feels this morning????? He is about to certify your a/c as fit to fly.....
A civvy CRM consultant would have a field day in the mil...it would be a job for life!
TC - don't tar us all with the same brush - you are clearly ex-Navy where the attitudes you describe still prevail. The same us and them views are also often seen in RAF fast jet squadrons but not on RAF helicopter units.
The SH force spends most of it's time on deployment (sometimes on ships) and the working relationship between pilots, rearcrew and engineers must be good for the sqn to function.
On an RAF SAR flight 99% of the aircrew and groundcrew will be on first name terms (not just a one way street as others like to use it) and many will socialise together.
There will always be a few individuals (aircrew and groundcrew) who have a deep rooted distrust in each other but that is usually down to personalities not accepted working practises or ethos.
Our CRM is as good as any and better than most, I have done the courses and for the most part they are about common sense and giving respect to the other members of the team.
Whenever the aircraft are in pieces (often with the Sea King) you will find aircrew in the hangar poking their noses in and asking questions - apart from any CRM issues it's a very good way of learning more about the aircraft you fly.
You should have done an exchange tour with the crabs TC - we've got a 771 pilot just joined us so I hope he will learn how to relate to non-officers properly.
The SH force spends most of it's time on deployment (sometimes on ships) and the working relationship between pilots, rearcrew and engineers must be good for the sqn to function.
On an RAF SAR flight 99% of the aircrew and groundcrew will be on first name terms (not just a one way street as others like to use it) and many will socialise together.
There will always be a few individuals (aircrew and groundcrew) who have a deep rooted distrust in each other but that is usually down to personalities not accepted working practises or ethos.
Our CRM is as good as any and better than most, I have done the courses and for the most part they are about common sense and giving respect to the other members of the team.
Whenever the aircraft are in pieces (often with the Sea King) you will find aircrew in the hangar poking their noses in and asking questions - apart from any CRM issues it's a very good way of learning more about the aircraft you fly.
You should have done an exchange tour with the crabs TC - we've got a 771 pilot just joined us so I hope he will learn how to relate to non-officers properly.
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get your act together.
May I make a suggestion? The easiest way to establish the relationships and responsibilities of everyone in your respective organizations is to get certified to ISO 9001 standard. ISO 9001 requires that every member of a group defines his responsibilities and then defines what information he/she requires from other members of the organization and then defines what his/her responsibilities are respective to each member of the organization. There are other standards in the ISO format that deal mainly with the establishment of a quality control organization and define the paper trail within the production elements and the QC groups as well as the interrelationships of the members of the groups. This is basically what CRM does.
Lu, just writing all that stuff down does not help people work better together - I agree that evryone should have a job description and some terms of reference and responsibilities laid out but things like ISO9001 are just paperwork exercises designed by consultatnts to make money from industry.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't going to respond to Lu, but what the hell!
With over 20 years of experience in implementing QA systems (in the aviation and other sectors), I would be very cautious about linking the two things.
Firstly, they are not remotely the same thing.
Secondly, in many cases formal QA systems, particularly those subject to external audit, you get a paper exercise completely remote from the actual activity and of no relevance to it. I have worked for one or two helicopter outfits with just such formal systems. They have been without exception the worst operators with poor communications, lousy management, dissatisfied workforce, poorly delivered goals and a poor safety record. Such systems are often a substitute for real management.
Real quality assurance is fine and sits well with good CRM too; it is entirely different from my experience of things like ISO 9001. And I think that Crab is right that most of the probems arise from the thing being imposed by external consultants. The most important pre-requisite is that the people running the activity want to achieve "quality".
With over 20 years of experience in implementing QA systems (in the aviation and other sectors), I would be very cautious about linking the two things.
Firstly, they are not remotely the same thing.
Secondly, in many cases formal QA systems, particularly those subject to external audit, you get a paper exercise completely remote from the actual activity and of no relevance to it. I have worked for one or two helicopter outfits with just such formal systems. They have been without exception the worst operators with poor communications, lousy management, dissatisfied workforce, poorly delivered goals and a poor safety record. Such systems are often a substitute for real management.
Real quality assurance is fine and sits well with good CRM too; it is entirely different from my experience of things like ISO 9001. And I think that Crab is right that most of the probems arise from the thing being imposed by external consultants. The most important pre-requisite is that the people running the activity want to achieve "quality".
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah but....
To: Crab
Being certified to ISO standards and working to those standards are two different things. Most companies have a standards manual for the handling of paperwork or a quality control manual. If everyone worked to those standards the company would be fine. However personalities enter into the equation where one boss does not like another and all lines of communications break down. The product suffers and the company suffers and most of all the people in the respective departments suffer even more. This was true for an Italian helicopter manufacturer at least when I worked there.
Whether you are talking about CRM or ISO 9001-1994 or, 2000 or whatever the reason they are being implemented is that there are humans involved. No matter if the Captain or the manager are total ass-bites they still have a responsibility to the people in their crew or department as well as the crew or personnel having a responsibility to the Captain or the manager.
There have to be operational standards in every type of operation whether it is in aviation or the manufacture of canned soup.
I once thought that ISO 9001 was a joke that is until I saw it being implemented into the engineering department of a major aircraft company. The management personalities entered into it and they could never get certified. However, the Manufacturing facility did get certified and they are a model for the industry. Companies like Boeing and Airbus have come to see the manufacturing facility and the methodology used in constructing aircraft.
CRM or Cockpit Resources Management was implemented by United Airlines when there were several mishaps resulting from poor crew communication. Since then it has grown like Topsy and included relations with cabin crew, ground crew and anybody that even touches an aircraft.
What it all boils down to is to park your personality at the Jetway prior to boarding the aircraft and, treat others with respect but then again that is what the “Golden Rule” is all about.
Lu, just writing all that stuff down does not help people work better together - I agree that evryone should have a job description and some terms of reference and responsibilities laid out but things like ISO9001 are just paperwork exercises designed by consultatnts to make money from industry.
Whether you are talking about CRM or ISO 9001-1994 or, 2000 or whatever the reason they are being implemented is that there are humans involved. No matter if the Captain or the manager are total ass-bites they still have a responsibility to the people in their crew or department as well as the crew or personnel having a responsibility to the Captain or the manager.
There have to be operational standards in every type of operation whether it is in aviation or the manufacture of canned soup.
I once thought that ISO 9001 was a joke that is until I saw it being implemented into the engineering department of a major aircraft company. The management personalities entered into it and they could never get certified. However, the Manufacturing facility did get certified and they are a model for the industry. Companies like Boeing and Airbus have come to see the manufacturing facility and the methodology used in constructing aircraft.
CRM or Cockpit Resources Management was implemented by United Airlines when there were several mishaps resulting from poor crew communication. Since then it has grown like Topsy and included relations with cabin crew, ground crew and anybody that even touches an aircraft.
What it all boils down to is to park your personality at the Jetway prior to boarding the aircraft and, treat others with respect but then again that is what the “Golden Rule” is all about.
My thoughts track with the comment of "treating others as you would like to be treated".....is that not what teamwork and a recipe for success in life is all about? CRM concepts work at home too....and in non-flying situations.
Wish my current gang of rotor tillers could discover CRM....like ISO 9001....in its written form...unless they actually live up to it...it is just another bunch of wasted paper and ink.
Wish my current gang of rotor tillers could discover CRM....like ISO 9001....in its written form...unless they actually live up to it...it is just another bunch of wasted paper and ink.
TC, I remember the Sae King TR. Sounds a bit the civvies who put the A 109 swashplates on the wrong way round.
Nr Fairy, some of the Police ASUs use, LifeSkills at:
[email protected]
or
07714 751452
for Pilot and Observer CRM training.
Nr Fairy, some of the Police ASUs use, LifeSkills at:
[email protected]
or
07714 751452
for Pilot and Observer CRM training.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the move!
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helicopter Specific CRM/ADM
Comments, feedback, critique required!
I have been in aviation now since 1992 and throughout my military and commercial careers as a multi-engine pilot I haven't attended any CRM/ADM courses that were helicopter specific.
Yes it was great to attend the standard CRM/ADM course and view the spectacular airline accidents, but many of the courses were not customed designed to address some of the unique human factors issues involved in helicopter operations.
It is my opinion that we need to design and develop CRM/ADM specific courses that will address pertinent issues involved in the various industry sectors, ranging from Military, Police, EMS, Offshore, Marine Pilot Transfer, Fire Fighting, etc.
I believe this will be of great value if operators can invest in such a CRM/ADM course and combine it with Line Oriented Flight Training to facilitate the specific human factors issues involved in that particular industry sector. Pilots will greatly benefit from such tailored courses and will be able to apply many of these decision making and situational awareness techniques during day-to-day flying operations.
Any comments, critique or feedback from all pilots, ops managers and executives are encouraged.
Regards,
Chopper Jog
I have been in aviation now since 1992 and throughout my military and commercial careers as a multi-engine pilot I haven't attended any CRM/ADM courses that were helicopter specific.
Yes it was great to attend the standard CRM/ADM course and view the spectacular airline accidents, but many of the courses were not customed designed to address some of the unique human factors issues involved in helicopter operations.
It is my opinion that we need to design and develop CRM/ADM specific courses that will address pertinent issues involved in the various industry sectors, ranging from Military, Police, EMS, Offshore, Marine Pilot Transfer, Fire Fighting, etc.
I believe this will be of great value if operators can invest in such a CRM/ADM course and combine it with Line Oriented Flight Training to facilitate the specific human factors issues involved in that particular industry sector. Pilots will greatly benefit from such tailored courses and will be able to apply many of these decision making and situational awareness techniques during day-to-day flying operations.
Any comments, critique or feedback from all pilots, ops managers and executives are encouraged.
Regards,
Chopper Jog
Hi Jog,(again)
Talk to Rob Rich in QLD, via the HAA website, he runs such courses, and there is an experienced army pilot who might be linking with him soon to provide such helicopter-specific courses - you might know him, he is a talented artist. (CB)
Cheers
Talk to Rob Rich in QLD, via the HAA website, he runs such courses, and there is an experienced army pilot who might be linking with him soon to provide such helicopter-specific courses - you might know him, he is a talented artist. (CB)
Cheers