What do you teach in the auto?
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I was always taught in the R22, flare, level off, raise collective and run on. In the R44, 500' five degrees nose up, flare, and level off, raise collective with a little forward speed. If the weight was low in the R44, i would do all of the above, with the exception of the run on, it maybe possible to do a zero-zero landing.
Andyhelo
Andyhelo
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One day during one of my first 206 training sessions, I had about 50 hours TOTAL, me and the instructor were headed towards the ground for a touchdown auto, when as I entered the flare I began to call out "1 Flare, 2 Collective, 3 Level, 4 Cushion" and I don't think I have ever had someone look at me with such bewilderment, he immediately took the controls and while staring at me got the thing on the ground and said in a very firm voice that if I ever thought that I could learn autos as a numerical or steps procedures I was never going to learn how to do it, he said that every auto is different, different weight, landing spot, aircraft, DA and that every auto required different inputs, he said you couldn't auto like following an instruction manual, you had to FLY the aircraft to the ground making only the necessary required inputs, sometimes more, sometimes less, and that the same auto could be flown different ways.
Then he proceeded to demonstrate an auto in which after an slight initial flare he froze the cyclic until we were stopped, then another one in which he did absolutely nothing but keep the aircraft level until we were stopped, finally one in which right after the flare once the aircraft was stopped he pedal turned the aircraft 90 degrees before it touched down from a TALL hover auto, and he said "you can't learn that by counting numbers or looking at the airspeed or RPM gauges!"
For example anyone who has flown a Bell 407 will tell you that if you are not careful about leveling a 407 after the flare it will speed up again like a Ferrari going from 0-100 in 3.6 seconds! In a 407 you almost hold the same cyclic position all the way to the ground after the flare , it will almost certainly (and mysteriously) level itself out without any input, and almost always touchdown heels first, if you are fast it will be almost like landing an airplane on the main gear first and then you lower the nose with stick, same here. Of course sometimes it requires completely different inputs to get it into a tight spot.
Then he proceeded to demonstrate an auto in which after an slight initial flare he froze the cyclic until we were stopped, then another one in which he did absolutely nothing but keep the aircraft level until we were stopped, finally one in which right after the flare once the aircraft was stopped he pedal turned the aircraft 90 degrees before it touched down from a TALL hover auto, and he said "you can't learn that by counting numbers or looking at the airspeed or RPM gauges!"
For example anyone who has flown a Bell 407 will tell you that if you are not careful about leveling a 407 after the flare it will speed up again like a Ferrari going from 0-100 in 3.6 seconds! In a 407 you almost hold the same cyclic position all the way to the ground after the flare , it will almost certainly (and mysteriously) level itself out without any input, and almost always touchdown heels first, if you are fast it will be almost like landing an airplane on the main gear first and then you lower the nose with stick, same here. Of course sometimes it requires completely different inputs to get it into a tight spot.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 20th Sep 2005 at 15:50.
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autos...
Well, i've only got 85 hours, but for what it's worth, here's what I was taught...!
In the 300: Flare, level off, begin coll. up SLIGHTLY before level off is finished.
In the R22: Flare, collect up which will level of by itself.
Make any sense, or am I about to fail my CPL flight test, hahaha!
kiwi
In the 300: Flare, level off, begin coll. up SLIGHTLY before level off is finished.
In the R22: Flare, collect up which will level of by itself.
Make any sense, or am I about to fail my CPL flight test, hahaha!
kiwi
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R22: Flare, flare more, level off *, collective up, run on, be ready to be very quick with the feet.
* and have always been surprised how much "level off" is required. Have had it stressed to me that landing on the back of the skids (as is my tendancy until the CFI interjects!) is a bad thing - a/c will roll forward. Landing on the front of the skids is much better - they are like a sledge and will sort themselves out.
RC
* and have always been surprised how much "level off" is required. Have had it stressed to me that landing on the back of the skids (as is my tendancy until the CFI interjects!) is a bad thing - a/c will roll forward. Landing on the front of the skids is much better - they are like a sledge and will sort themselves out.
RC
Blender said it correctly.
There is no cook book method of autorotations.
Autorotational RPM setting, Weight of the aircraft, Altitude, Temperature, Wind, Airpseed, all effect the actual Rate of Descent and Ground speed....size of the area, location of the area, and barriers at the approach end of the area determine the kind of autorotation you will be making in order to land safely.
As an initial learning tool....a cook book approach does not hurt...but that is only to start out with. After that it becomes a finesse issue and that cannot be done by a cookbook.
Just a thought....if you have an actual engine failure...and you are doing an honest by God I gotta get this thing right autorotation....do you really care if you overspeed the main rotor during the final flare?
If the main rotor Autorotational Rotor speed has been set low...you probably cannot overspeed the rotor enough to hurt...if it is set too high...you might have to carry some collective all the way down...DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR AIRCRAFT'S SETTING IS NOW? Think about it?
There is no cook book method of autorotations.
Autorotational RPM setting, Weight of the aircraft, Altitude, Temperature, Wind, Airpseed, all effect the actual Rate of Descent and Ground speed....size of the area, location of the area, and barriers at the approach end of the area determine the kind of autorotation you will be making in order to land safely.
As an initial learning tool....a cook book approach does not hurt...but that is only to start out with. After that it becomes a finesse issue and that cannot be done by a cookbook.
Just a thought....if you have an actual engine failure...and you are doing an honest by God I gotta get this thing right autorotation....do you really care if you overspeed the main rotor during the final flare?
If the main rotor Autorotational Rotor speed has been set low...you probably cannot overspeed the rotor enough to hurt...if it is set too high...you might have to carry some collective all the way down...DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR AIRCRAFT'S SETTING IS NOW? Think about it?
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More points to ponder
I agree completely with Blender and SASless, that cookbook stuff better be left for kitchens and that every auto merits its own approach depending on various factors as mentioned. Comfort can be found by reading some books on helicopter aerodynamics and how various factors will affect the autorotation.
I DEFINITELY also agree that pilot's should know where the bottom stop of the helicopter collective pitch lever is set, especially so for that altitude the helicopter operates at mostly.
I had an incident during autorotation training at 5000' AMSL at 25 degrees Celsius, with 2 crew and approximately 500 pounds of fuel onboard a Bell 407. After the entry, the throttle was rolled to the idle stop. Immediately the Rotor RPM (RRpm) started decaying and continued to decay to well below 95% when the horn activated with the collective pitch lever fully down at 65 - 70 kts. During further experimentation at 1000’ AGL and a higher than normal IAS, not even doing a harsh flare produced sufficient RRpm to ensure a safe landing and the only way to regain RRpm to within limits was to open the throttle.
Now was this a real case or the helicopter was at sea level, this could have had disastrous consequences, as it was nearly impossible to recover from the low and lost RRpm.
Setting bottom stops should be done after routine maintenance, every 100 hr inspection or if any adjustments were made on the rotor head, including adjustments to pitch change rods after track and balance flights etc or if main rotor blades were replaced. All it takes to check if the stabilised RRpm is correct for a specific Weight, Altitude and Temperature, is to do an auto with the throttle at idle at a given weight and speed as stated in the Maintenance Manual for your specific helicopter type. It is easier to raise the collective pitch lever than it is to try "manufacture" RRpm from a low RRpm state.
Also remember that it is virtually impossible to recover from catastrophic blade stall due to excessively low RRpm. (For more information: http://www.helicopteros.com.br/sn24box.htm)
So high to low, careful go means more than just flying from meteorological high pressure to low pressure areas. It also means have the required adjustments made or check it at your destination if you are going from say 5000’ AMSL to Sea Level and vica versa to ensure RRpm can be adequately maintained should it be required in case of an engine failure.
And to agree with SASless one more time, Rotor RPM is life! An autorotation is a living, changing animal, to be approached with respect and knowledge and only perfected with lots of training. But once in your pocket, it gives one great confidence.
I DEFINITELY also agree that pilot's should know where the bottom stop of the helicopter collective pitch lever is set, especially so for that altitude the helicopter operates at mostly.
I had an incident during autorotation training at 5000' AMSL at 25 degrees Celsius, with 2 crew and approximately 500 pounds of fuel onboard a Bell 407. After the entry, the throttle was rolled to the idle stop. Immediately the Rotor RPM (RRpm) started decaying and continued to decay to well below 95% when the horn activated with the collective pitch lever fully down at 65 - 70 kts. During further experimentation at 1000’ AGL and a higher than normal IAS, not even doing a harsh flare produced sufficient RRpm to ensure a safe landing and the only way to regain RRpm to within limits was to open the throttle.
Now was this a real case or the helicopter was at sea level, this could have had disastrous consequences, as it was nearly impossible to recover from the low and lost RRpm.
Setting bottom stops should be done after routine maintenance, every 100 hr inspection or if any adjustments were made on the rotor head, including adjustments to pitch change rods after track and balance flights etc or if main rotor blades were replaced. All it takes to check if the stabilised RRpm is correct for a specific Weight, Altitude and Temperature, is to do an auto with the throttle at idle at a given weight and speed as stated in the Maintenance Manual for your specific helicopter type. It is easier to raise the collective pitch lever than it is to try "manufacture" RRpm from a low RRpm state.
Also remember that it is virtually impossible to recover from catastrophic blade stall due to excessively low RRpm. (For more information: http://www.helicopteros.com.br/sn24box.htm)
So high to low, careful go means more than just flying from meteorological high pressure to low pressure areas. It also means have the required adjustments made or check it at your destination if you are going from say 5000’ AMSL to Sea Level and vica versa to ensure RRpm can be adequately maintained should it be required in case of an engine failure.
And to agree with SASless one more time, Rotor RPM is life! An autorotation is a living, changing animal, to be approached with respect and knowledge and only perfected with lots of training. But once in your pocket, it gives one great confidence.
Gatvol
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Simple. Split the Needles, Pitch down. Get it all set. Then when the Instructor goes for the controls, FLARE that puppy. All will work out.
Last edited by B Sousa; 22nd Sep 2005 at 18:46.
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Teaching autos, and teaching flying in general, has been much on my mind lately, and I've come up with some new (to me) ideas, which is unfortunate, as I'm no longer a flight instructor (and this is farming club).
In all of the auto training I received (with a few exceptions --mostly my instructor trying the stuff that he vaguely remembered his instructor showing him once) the focus was always the attempt to master the straight in, "by the book" auto to a power recovery.
As this thread (not to mention the BACKWARDS AUTO thread) indicates, the book has to be thrown out in order for the autorotation to get you from where the power went away to the place you want to walk away from.
Toward the end of my stint as an instructor, I began teaching my primary students much more dynamic autos, (i.e. zero speed, 180, 360, and combinations of these) not only were most students capable of handling the more dynamic "glide" portion, but the made huge gains in their ability to actually hit their spot... I was blown away when a pre-private student, who entered WAY too late, threw down a couple of crankin' turns, managed the Nr (in an R22) and came to a hover ON the spot (my only input was to tell him to start breathing again).
My point in all of this rambling is that I think that students should be exposed to this sort of flying much earlier than is the norm at the schools I've been attended/worked for. Obviously the straight glide, flare and recovery are requisite skills, but once those are survivable, we instructors should teach more free form autos.
My progression would probably go something like this...
*To teach glide skills (Nr/airspeed in an r22 seems to be the biggest hurdle) - enter a auto at 3,000' agl or so, and allow the student to use one control at a time and observe the helicopters response. A sportier version for the next flight is to make the student keep Nr pegged in the green with the cyclic, while you try to move it into the yellow with the collective, and vice versa.
*Once the student can fly a decent glide, introduce the flare / recovery
*As soon as you're not having to use any heroic action to keep the overspeed from happening, go back up to 3,000' and enter a zero speed auto. (note: this will FREAK OUT any student who has only done straight in autos, and their brain will lock up / luckily my hypothetical student has already seen lots of airspeed changes in the glide training) Now, do a pedal turn and decide on a touchdown point... and maneuver to get there.
*Repeat as necessary (a lot, and what fun)
I developed these tricks in trying to improve the autos, and forced landings of my students, after the hundredth straight-in went wrong again. What I haven't had a chance to do yet is actually use a progression like this to a student new to autos.
As I might be an instructor again someday, I'd be interested in hearing more stories about how you were taught, or how you teach.
Sorry for rambling ... HP
In all of the auto training I received (with a few exceptions --mostly my instructor trying the stuff that he vaguely remembered his instructor showing him once) the focus was always the attempt to master the straight in, "by the book" auto to a power recovery.
As this thread (not to mention the BACKWARDS AUTO thread) indicates, the book has to be thrown out in order for the autorotation to get you from where the power went away to the place you want to walk away from.
Toward the end of my stint as an instructor, I began teaching my primary students much more dynamic autos, (i.e. zero speed, 180, 360, and combinations of these) not only were most students capable of handling the more dynamic "glide" portion, but the made huge gains in their ability to actually hit their spot... I was blown away when a pre-private student, who entered WAY too late, threw down a couple of crankin' turns, managed the Nr (in an R22) and came to a hover ON the spot (my only input was to tell him to start breathing again).
My point in all of this rambling is that I think that students should be exposed to this sort of flying much earlier than is the norm at the schools I've been attended/worked for. Obviously the straight glide, flare and recovery are requisite skills, but once those are survivable, we instructors should teach more free form autos.
My progression would probably go something like this...
*To teach glide skills (Nr/airspeed in an r22 seems to be the biggest hurdle) - enter a auto at 3,000' agl or so, and allow the student to use one control at a time and observe the helicopters response. A sportier version for the next flight is to make the student keep Nr pegged in the green with the cyclic, while you try to move it into the yellow with the collective, and vice versa.
*Once the student can fly a decent glide, introduce the flare / recovery
*As soon as you're not having to use any heroic action to keep the overspeed from happening, go back up to 3,000' and enter a zero speed auto. (note: this will FREAK OUT any student who has only done straight in autos, and their brain will lock up / luckily my hypothetical student has already seen lots of airspeed changes in the glide training) Now, do a pedal turn and decide on a touchdown point... and maneuver to get there.
*Repeat as necessary (a lot, and what fun)
I developed these tricks in trying to improve the autos, and forced landings of my students, after the hundredth straight-in went wrong again. What I haven't had a chance to do yet is actually use a progression like this to a student new to autos.
As I might be an instructor again someday, I'd be interested in hearing more stories about how you were taught, or how you teach.
Sorry for rambling ... HP
Back in the days of old...back when Bert had hair....when we had unlimited amounts of flying time devoted to touchdown autorotations in UH-1 B's and D's....we used to have contests (all informal and covert mind you). The B model was the most fun...sat lower and did not seem to mind the sliding as much.
Winner was who could land in the shortest ground run...the longest ground run...with specified touchdown points...ending points or both....hovering auto's followed by a liftoff and another hovering auto following pedal turns of various duration.
None of those maneuvers involved the use of a cookbook....and we did not ever bend a machine while engaged in such shenanigans. Might have worn out some skid shoes by the pallet load...but no damaged aircraft.
I was accurately quoted....Helicopter Pilots live and die by Nr....or the lack of it.
Winner was who could land in the shortest ground run...the longest ground run...with specified touchdown points...ending points or both....hovering auto's followed by a liftoff and another hovering auto following pedal turns of various duration.
None of those maneuvers involved the use of a cookbook....and we did not ever bend a machine while engaged in such shenanigans. Might have worn out some skid shoes by the pallet load...but no damaged aircraft.
I was accurately quoted....Helicopter Pilots live and die by Nr....or the lack of it.
