Best for the job?
Apache....totes only two people...has all weather day/night capability...can do surviellence and whack jobs as needed. Add an external hook and short haulling of Armed Police onto roof tops becomes a snap.
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split the subject
I suggest you split the question into two as the roles are significantly different. Best for EMS and Best for police should get a better result or at least reduce the extent of compromises.
The Eye
The Eye
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Police/EMS helicopters
I guess this will sound dull, but what possible value can be dervied from such a simple question? I recall my school play-ground where individuals expressed the virtues of what they thought was the best 'what ever'.
The best solution can only be determined if you know what the task requirements are, and if you ask me, and you did'nt, most of the problems associated with helicopter procurement are usually linked to very sketchy requirements tied-in to significant prejudice for a given marque, or type. So I'd be delighted to offer some best-fits if the proposer of the question can spare some time to work out what he/she would want the helicopter to do now, in five and then perhaps in 10 years.
There are other forums where box size/best colour scheme/favourite name are often discussed but why don't we show how profressional we all are by thinking about questions before asking.
The best solution can only be determined if you know what the task requirements are, and if you ask me, and you did'nt, most of the problems associated with helicopter procurement are usually linked to very sketchy requirements tied-in to significant prejudice for a given marque, or type. So I'd be delighted to offer some best-fits if the proposer of the question can spare some time to work out what he/she would want the helicopter to do now, in five and then perhaps in 10 years.
There are other forums where box size/best colour scheme/favourite name are often discussed but why don't we show how profressional we all are by thinking about questions before asking.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
There are other forums where box size/best colour scheme/favourite name are often discussed but why don't we show how profressional we all are by thinking about questions before asking.
I could have overlooked this, but the word 'professional' is at the top of every single page on this site.
SS
metric
Hovering AND talking
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Metric,
A quiet word if I may ....
I think you'll find Thomas does know the task requirements of both HEMS and police only too well!
It's a perfectly valid question and hopefully will open up some debate and discussion.
Silsoe, you're a bit hard on metric; they were only typos after all and that is something of which are all guilty from time to time?!
Cheers
Whirls
Thomas, just for you.... you'd be disappointed otherwise.... I think they should be pink!!
A quiet word if I may ....
I think you'll find Thomas does know the task requirements of both HEMS and police only too well!
It's a perfectly valid question and hopefully will open up some debate and discussion.
Silsoe, you're a bit hard on metric; they were only typos after all and that is something of which are all guilty from time to time?!
Cheers
Whirls
Thomas, just for you.... you'd be disappointed otherwise.... I think they should be pink!!
At what operating altitudes? Over what sort of surface? For routine landing on what terrain?
With how many crew?
Covering what sized area?
With what operating budget?
For day-only ops or H24?
To purchase or rent?
With what political requirements for locally sourced content? ANd how local?
How many refuelling opportunities in the operating area?
I don't know the answer by the way, I'm just illustrating why it's such a complex question.
G
With how many crew?
Covering what sized area?
With what operating budget?
For day-only ops or H24?
To purchase or rent?
With what political requirements for locally sourced content? ANd how local?
How many refuelling opportunities in the operating area?
I don't know the answer by the way, I'm just illustrating why it's such a complex question.
G
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Helicopter choice
Risking a word or two here. The unglamorous subject of helicopter maintenance may be a major issue particularly when considering light and medium helicopters and then helicopters of different vintages.
As an example, the EC135 has shown commendable availability to UK police operators. This availability has been possible to a large extent to the simplification of inspection requirements for what, even now. is a very modern helicopter.
Larger helicopters, derived from more mature designs, may indeed offer significant operational benefits and I would include the EC145 here, but it would be wise to be certain that the maintenance regime is one that will allow operations based on say EC135, to continue without major changes.
The EC145 has to date been deployed largely in groups of 3 plus helicopters where airframe rotation is part of the game.
I am not suggesting at all that the EC145 is not an excellent aircraft which might meet many of the tasks that a UK police force may need now or in the future. I am saying that there are some 'interesting' issues that need to be understood.
Happy flying.
As an example, the EC135 has shown commendable availability to UK police operators. This availability has been possible to a large extent to the simplification of inspection requirements for what, even now. is a very modern helicopter.
Larger helicopters, derived from more mature designs, may indeed offer significant operational benefits and I would include the EC145 here, but it would be wise to be certain that the maintenance regime is one that will allow operations based on say EC135, to continue without major changes.
The EC145 has to date been deployed largely in groups of 3 plus helicopters where airframe rotation is part of the game.
I am not suggesting at all that the EC145 is not an excellent aircraft which might meet many of the tasks that a UK police force may need now or in the future. I am saying that there are some 'interesting' issues that need to be understood.
Happy flying.
Thread Starter
Thank you Metric for your sympathetic ear. If I didn't know any better I'd say you know more than you let on.
Takes all sorts I suppose and at the end of the day.......you are, after all........an engineer
Whirly.....if ever I need a tail gunner, I'll know who to call
I'll rephrase the question making it even simpler for the engineers to contribute:
Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world?
Eliminate ALL those that are NOT supported in the UK.
Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.
Takes all sorts I suppose and at the end of the day.......you are, after all........an engineer
Whirly.....if ever I need a tail gunner, I'll know who to call
I'll rephrase the question making it even simpler for the engineers to contribute:
Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world?
Eliminate ALL those that are NOT supported in the UK.
Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.
TC
This might get complex!
If you go down the road of 'Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world' that list is not too long.....
We may be able to ignore those .... NOT supported in the UK.
However ... find three or more customers and 'they' will soon find support!
'Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.'
That is the ticklish one.... strike the BK117C2 [aka EC145] and the A109 ... But I guess you did not mean that.
Even the 135 and the 900 are on the line..... both are well over 10 now.
So the contenders are I expect the western worlds offerings ... the 109, 135, 145 and 900 plus potentially the 429? The latter being a wholly unknown quantity.
Or did you have others in your frame?
[Spelling checked, not an engineer!]
This might get complex!
If you go down the road of 'Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world' that list is not too long.....
We may be able to ignore those .... NOT supported in the UK.
However ... find three or more customers and 'they' will soon find support!
'Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.'
That is the ticklish one.... strike the BK117C2 [aka EC145] and the A109 ... But I guess you did not mean that.
Even the 135 and the 900 are on the line..... both are well over 10 now.
So the contenders are I expect the western worlds offerings ... the 109, 135, 145 and 900 plus potentially the 429? The latter being a wholly unknown quantity.
Or did you have others in your frame?
[Spelling checked, not an engineer!]
There are no limits
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Lets move on.
Lets get away from the political limitations of having one word painted on the side.
Lets give better value to the taxpayer.
Lets write POLICE HEMS FIRE RESCUE instead
Lets do winching, fast roping, picking up people, load lifting, bambi buckets, civil contingency.
Lets try doing away with C of G problems
Lets try CAT A OEI at MTOW
Lets move into the 5 tonne class.
Lets try EC155, AB 135 et al.
Lets try taking cover!
Lets get away from the political limitations of having one word painted on the side.
Lets give better value to the taxpayer.
Lets write POLICE HEMS FIRE RESCUE instead
Lets do winching, fast roping, picking up people, load lifting, bambi buckets, civil contingency.
Lets try doing away with C of G problems
Lets try CAT A OEI at MTOW
Lets move into the 5 tonne class.
Lets try EC155, AB 135 et al.
Lets try taking cover!
Hard to beat?
In what way?
Nice colour, nice shape, lots of bits attached.... fast .... cheap to buy [or not!] .... economical to operate ... [or not!] ....
Define the mission THEN choose the donkey. You may need a Bell 210.
The EC145 may look like an EC135 but it is NOT... everything above the ceiling is pure BK... so why did you not buy one last time around?
The same caution may well apply.
In what way?
Nice colour, nice shape, lots of bits attached.... fast .... cheap to buy [or not!] .... economical to operate ... [or not!] ....
Define the mission THEN choose the donkey. You may need a Bell 210.
The EC145 may look like an EC135 but it is NOT... everything above the ceiling is pure BK... so why did you not buy one last time around?
The same caution may well apply.
This looks like a 'loaded' question....
nil desperandum....
Yes they still use Robinsons in the US... not so many R22 these day now the R44 is discovered....
But of course you need to look at the 44 with some care .... fly it a couple of years and Frank will snatch it back for 5 months for a rebuild.... Toledo PD just had that .... create a demand for air support and then 'lose' the machine for nearly half a year! They actually do it quicker for the police but it seems an awful long time to lose your machine from the front line.
A certain modern light twin can disappear for 7 weeks on an annual where another might only take 4 days [on a good day] for the same treatment.
Even if you plan it, leasing in for seven weeks costs a great deal more than 4 days..... and a budget is a budget.
All to be considered.
nil desperandum....
Yes they still use Robinsons in the US... not so many R22 these day now the R44 is discovered....
But of course you need to look at the 44 with some care .... fly it a couple of years and Frank will snatch it back for 5 months for a rebuild.... Toledo PD just had that .... create a demand for air support and then 'lose' the machine for nearly half a year! They actually do it quicker for the police but it seems an awful long time to lose your machine from the front line.
A certain modern light twin can disappear for 7 weeks on an annual where another might only take 4 days [on a good day] for the same treatment.
Even if you plan it, leasing in for seven weeks costs a great deal more than 4 days..... and a budget is a budget.
All to be considered.
"In what way?" Well the original question was "best allrounder" for Police/EMS. The 145 has:
Large flat floor and good sized cabin
Good power
Not too big for confined areas
Modern avionics
Clam-shell doors for patient loading
Tail rotor well above gl
Quite fast...and yeah, it does look good!
Down side... costs a LOT!
"why didnt you buy one last time"
Sorry, what did I buy?
Large flat floor and good sized cabin
Good power
Not too big for confined areas
Modern avionics
Clam-shell doors for patient loading
Tail rotor well above gl
Quite fast...and yeah, it does look good!
Down side... costs a LOT!
"why didnt you buy one last time"
Sorry, what did I buy?