Robinson R44
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 105
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From: Europe
I found this:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/certificat...3-21042010.pdf
but there isn't anything about the pop-out floats.. So are the pop-out floats certified by EASA?
Can a R44 do charter (off shore - between islands), or aerial work over sea with pop out floats?
Thank you
http://www.easa.europa.eu/certificat...3-21042010.pdf
but there isn't anything about the pop-out floats.. So are the pop-out floats certified by EASA?
Can a R44 do charter (off shore - between islands), or aerial work over sea with pop out floats?
Thank you
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
From: England & Scotland
The R44 Clipper II is built with pop-out floats, unless you specify fixed floats, (and with additional anti-corrosion protection). The aircraft is EASA certified and mine is used for Public Transport work including over-water routes that require floats.
So I think the answer to the OP is "yes", in the circumstances above.
It would be a totally different question to ask if pop-out floats can be fitted to a non-Clipper aircraft. I don't know the answer to that one.
So I think the answer to the OP is "yes", in the circumstances above.
It would be a totally different question to ask if pop-out floats can be fitted to a non-Clipper aircraft. I don't know the answer to that one.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 73
Likes: 2
From: uk
Pop-outs
John R81
That's interesting re: floats, when I look under the Flight manual change sheets on the CAA web site it states that the floats are not approved as a ditching floatation system. Have you got approval in the UK to use them on coastal corridors? If so can you let me know as it would be handy for us to be cleared to do this.
Cheers
Ss
That's interesting re: floats, when I look under the Flight manual change sheets on the CAA web site it states that the floats are not approved as a ditching floatation system. Have you got approval in the UK to use them on coastal corridors? If so can you let me know as it would be handy for us to be cleared to do this.
Cheers
Ss
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Europe
In Italy everybody told me that the floats are not approved as a ditching floatation system. That's why I am looking for that document where it's written that EASA did not certified the R44 pop-out floats. Who knows...
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: Close to the hangar, UK.
I was under the impression that they were only approved for flat water, which is why they are OK along the Thames to Battersea (public transport). However, they are not approved for open water in anything more than a sea state 2 (whatever that is).
I heard this from an AOC holder before the EASA shakeup.
I heard this from an AOC holder before the EASA shakeup.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
From: England & Scotland
Sea State 1, I am told by the splendid chap who looks after the AOC paperwork. But then he also swears that he has seen evidence that an R44, once landed on water, can depart if they do so quickly before the belly-pan floods. Personally, I have no intention of trying that particular manouver.
More of a problem for the R44 intending over-water passenger transport is the lack of a second engine. That means heliroutes along the Thames, Battersea, etc are all fine. Unfortunately, no commercial flights to France due to the width of the English Channel.
More of a problem for the R44 intending over-water passenger transport is the lack of a second engine. That means heliroutes along the Thames, Battersea, etc are all fine. Unfortunately, no commercial flights to France due to the width of the English Channel.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
From: On the move...
Ditching?
From the Robinson web site, here, you can download the latest POH Supps section.
Under limitations it states that the aircraft is not certified for ditching with pop out floats. I believe that if you read the Part 3 Emergencies and consider their definition and actions for ditching that makes more sense. Basically, let the pax out, fly away and roll off the throttle putting it into the water. My opinion is this is Robinson speak for don't ditch, just inflate and land.
Also in this link you will see that the aircraft is stable in 12 inch wave height, crest to trough.
From the Robinson web site, here, you can download the latest POH Supps section.
Under limitations it states that the aircraft is not certified for ditching with pop out floats. I believe that if you read the Part 3 Emergencies and consider their definition and actions for ditching that makes more sense. Basically, let the pax out, fly away and roll off the throttle putting it into the water. My opinion is this is Robinson speak for don't ditch, just inflate and land.
Also in this link you will see that the aircraft is stable in 12 inch wave height, crest to trough.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: Mallorca
I think the problem lies with the definition of "ditching".
NTSB -
DITCHING:
A planned event in which a flight crew knowingly
makes a controlled emergency landing in water. (Excludes
float plane landings in normal water landing areas)
Normal R44 Raven, no floats, ditching in Emergency Procedures Section 3 into water
R44 Clipper, fixed and pop-outs, you don't "ditch" as you are landing on water (not in water), therefore in Section 9 Supplements the POH (boths Fixed Floats and Pop Out Floats Supplements) say:
"DITCHING - Not applicable with floats"
This is probably why it isn't "certified for ditching" as it isn't applicable!!
They are part of the original EASA Type Certificate so are approved equipment on the aircraft.
Operating floated R44's (and any floated single engine helicopter) depends on EASA regs, but also local rules (UK ANO for example), and Ops Manuals. It also depends on what category of flight, Private, Aerial Work or Public Transport.
I know that regulations for single engine helicopters with floats differs between Spain, UK and France!
Safe Operation on water has been demonstrated in 12 inch wave (trough to crest), but I do have a video of a R44 Clipper which made an emergency landing in a Sea State 4 and stayed upright.
NTSB -
DITCHING:
A planned event in which a flight crew knowingly
makes a controlled emergency landing in water. (Excludes
float plane landings in normal water landing areas)
Normal R44 Raven, no floats, ditching in Emergency Procedures Section 3 into water
R44 Clipper, fixed and pop-outs, you don't "ditch" as you are landing on water (not in water), therefore in Section 9 Supplements the POH (boths Fixed Floats and Pop Out Floats Supplements) say:
"DITCHING - Not applicable with floats"
This is probably why it isn't "certified for ditching" as it isn't applicable!!
They are part of the original EASA Type Certificate so are approved equipment on the aircraft.
Operating floated R44's (and any floated single engine helicopter) depends on EASA regs, but also local rules (UK ANO for example), and Ops Manuals. It also depends on what category of flight, Private, Aerial Work or Public Transport.
I know that regulations for single engine helicopters with floats differs between Spain, UK and France!
Safe Operation on water has been demonstrated in 12 inch wave (trough to crest), but I do have a video of a R44 Clipper which made an emergency landing in a Sea State 4 and stayed upright.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 924
Likes: 1
From: Australia
CASA (Australia) Urgent Airworthiness Directive re fitting Bladder to tanks.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...44/r44-023.pdf
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...44/r44-023.pdf
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
From: England & Scotland
I have my bladder tanks.
The machine was returned painted and looking fine. Filler neck a little higher, and no more painted filler cap.
The tank kit did not include a new fuel guage, or re-calibrated dial face, so the guages showing in the cockpit are calibrated to the old volume. Though it is most likely that half-tank indication is still half a tank the US gal numbers on the guage are wrong and could lead to over-estimation of remaining range. This seems a simple thing to fix and it is silly, in my opinion, to add another "swiss cheese hole" that, one day, I am sure someon will line-up.
In addition, as we should not take the guages to be accurate we dip the tanks before flight. The tank kit did not contain a new dipstick, and the old one is going to over-read if used in the bladder tank. And as Arrj advised me recently, are you really going to stick an aluminium dipstick into a bladder tank? What have others done? Do I resort to making my own wooden dipper?
The machine was returned painted and looking fine. Filler neck a little higher, and no more painted filler cap.
The tank kit did not include a new fuel guage, or re-calibrated dial face, so the guages showing in the cockpit are calibrated to the old volume. Though it is most likely that half-tank indication is still half a tank the US gal numbers on the guage are wrong and could lead to over-estimation of remaining range. This seems a simple thing to fix and it is silly, in my opinion, to add another "swiss cheese hole" that, one day, I am sure someon will line-up.
In addition, as we should not take the guages to be accurate we dip the tanks before flight. The tank kit did not contain a new dipstick, and the old one is going to over-read if used in the bladder tank. And as Arrj advised me recently, are you really going to stick an aluminium dipstick into a bladder tank? What have others done? Do I resort to making my own wooden dipper?
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: England
John R81.
Why don't you have painted filler caps anymore?
Also, there should have been a decal applied to both the Main and Aux Tank cockpit gauges, to "recalibrate" the gauge. These are RHC Part No. D819-1 and D819-2 respectively.
Cheers.
Why don't you have painted filler caps anymore?
Also, there should have been a decal applied to both the Main and Aux Tank cockpit gauges, to "recalibrate" the gauge. These are RHC Part No. D819-1 and D819-2 respectively.
Cheers.
Last edited by powerlimited; 1st May 2013 at 06:42.