From zero to CPL and FI: Cost in UK (Merged)
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There's no magic wand Mike....
Seek out Dennis Kenyon, he may have a ppl(h) sponsorship lined up for this year, if not next..
You say you want to pursue a career....even if you manage the ppl(h)...how will you move on from there...given that it only gets more expensive ?
PD
Seek out Dennis Kenyon, he may have a ppl(h) sponsorship lined up for this year, if not next..
You say you want to pursue a career....even if you manage the ppl(h)...how will you move on from there...given that it only gets more expensive ?
PD
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I funded my PPL(h) training by releasing some equity from my apartment... Other than that, like others have already said, go the military route, borrow from parents/bank etc or work hard and save!
PR
PR
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PPL Dennis Kenyon Scholarship
Sadly no PPL sponsorship became available for 2010 but it is hoped to invite applicants for 2011. The announcements will be made in LOOP and BLADES which wil include an entry form.
Best wishes to you all out there,
Dennis Kenyon.
Sadly no PPL sponsorship became available for 2010 but it is hoped to invite applicants for 2011. The announcements will be made in LOOP and BLADES which wil include an entry form.
Best wishes to you all out there,
Dennis Kenyon.
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Stop. Think.
If you're struggling to raise the first £15k, ask where the other £85k-£100k is going to come from. That's the real cost of zero to CPL+IR+a couple of type ratings, which is what's needed to earn a living.
Armed Forces, buddy. Let the nation pay.
(Oh ... I sold my house, in case you're wondering.)
C-top
If you're struggling to raise the first £15k, ask where the other £85k-£100k is going to come from. That's the real cost of zero to CPL+IR+a couple of type ratings, which is what's needed to earn a living.
Armed Forces, buddy. Let the nation pay.
(Oh ... I sold my house, in case you're wondering.)
C-top
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Hi there.
I don't want to discourage you, but without working your ass off for years, making it through to fly/get trained in forces, having luck owning property to be sold/remortgaged, inheriting something of that kind, at your age.. Nigh impossible.
I know how you feel. I've loved flying since I was kid, with special 'zing' whenever a chopper flew past, saw a picture or used to draw crappy pics of Jetranger before I even knew 206. Hot Shotz series with RC heli with camera, OMG. Blue Thunder movie, yay. That poor 'beefed up' Gazelle looked like Apache to me when I was a kid. Well, wasn't born in UK or US to have any luxuries and options in the past.
That's country (after splitting up) with 50 (FIFTY) commercial/ATPL heli pilots, most/all of them trained in forces in the past, old salts, with 1 (ONE) PPL(H) on local CAA register.
It's possible, but very arduous way to get into heli flying for living. Very. Especially as GBP value slumped against USD and not likely to recover to 2:1 or better, to save us few grand, training in the US. I finally 'got lucky', if it could be said, with some money in accounts, from inheritance and land sale (mom's), although due to exchange rates against dollar, it's a disaster of a value now. Still can't reject it.
Problem is, even if you somehow manage to get funding for PPL and finish it, it's just the beginning of long road. It's easier to break into heli in the US thanks to licensing, although jobs were never easy to get, very, very likely as instructor first. The Yanks also had it easier in the past regarding loans for whole training. Nice. Thanks to credit crunch, SilverState collapse, Sallie Mae etc don't do unsecured high loans anymore.
There's lots of resources in Rotorheads if you search and go through FAQs.
European licensing is much tougher, as the hours requirements to finish up FI rating, are higher. Whichever way, heli flying is expensive, even if you just rent/hourbuild.
If you can't get any funding from land/property at all next decade or two, work out back up plan/job/studies, that'd pay well to be able to make it.
Don't forget, flight crew in the UK (RAF/Navy) applications until 24yo, so try it out and see.
There's also no use of scraping years for PPL when you'd have to spend 3-5x more to qualify for job. Don't let the minimum CPL hours mislead you. You could get a job, legally, but insurance, company policies, experience required, all that, no way in hell. Even without European IR(H) - very costly affair, you'd need more hours for a chance to be sponsored by North Sea operators for IR rating and job with them, bonded, but from what I've read, it's less and less frequent and not likely with sub-200hrs.
You'd need to keep current, UK/JAA regulations, to keep the licence. You'd want to. Question is, how often you'd fly.
I've saved for years, slaving off in restaurants, night job, whatever, alongside my studies. I'm not youngest anymore, still studying, but engineering at least now.
Had I known the pain/disenchantment encountered over past years and future, I'd probably just fly gliders/PPL(A) for fun and focus on career that'd allow me to fly for fun.
Spare 50-80k? (GBP, depending on location, hours, luck, exchange rate, etc)
Then go for it. Do you want to save 10 or so years, killing your youth's free time, skimp on leisure expenses, travel, etc? Hmm, doable.
Or get highly paid job pronto and in few years it could be reality.
I'm flying gliders and tailwheel right now for fun, although will continue my rotary training later. If you really, really want it, it's possible. But don't be mad at anyone, especially not yourself if you have to save for years and realise it just may not be worth it, chasing dreams and not living life as it is, when you're young. It s
.
Sorry for long-winded post, or own reflective blah blah, but I wanted to give you an idea. Be very aware of all the stuff ahead, read up ANO/LASORS/JAA FCL pertaining to helicopter licensing, check out some big schools in the US. At current rates, Australia, South Africa, NZ, none of them cheaper, their low rates..
Only rich/-ish people fly helicopters as a hobby. Most try to work flying them.
I don't want to discourage you, but without working your ass off for years, making it through to fly/get trained in forces, having luck owning property to be sold/remortgaged, inheriting something of that kind, at your age.. Nigh impossible.
I know how you feel. I've loved flying since I was kid, with special 'zing' whenever a chopper flew past, saw a picture or used to draw crappy pics of Jetranger before I even knew 206. Hot Shotz series with RC heli with camera, OMG. Blue Thunder movie, yay. That poor 'beefed up' Gazelle looked like Apache to me when I was a kid. Well, wasn't born in UK or US to have any luxuries and options in the past.
That's country (after splitting up) with 50 (FIFTY) commercial/ATPL heli pilots, most/all of them trained in forces in the past, old salts, with 1 (ONE) PPL(H) on local CAA register.
It's possible, but very arduous way to get into heli flying for living. Very. Especially as GBP value slumped against USD and not likely to recover to 2:1 or better, to save us few grand, training in the US. I finally 'got lucky', if it could be said, with some money in accounts, from inheritance and land sale (mom's), although due to exchange rates against dollar, it's a disaster of a value now. Still can't reject it.
Problem is, even if you somehow manage to get funding for PPL and finish it, it's just the beginning of long road. It's easier to break into heli in the US thanks to licensing, although jobs were never easy to get, very, very likely as instructor first. The Yanks also had it easier in the past regarding loans for whole training. Nice. Thanks to credit crunch, SilverState collapse, Sallie Mae etc don't do unsecured high loans anymore.
There's lots of resources in Rotorheads if you search and go through FAQs.
European licensing is much tougher, as the hours requirements to finish up FI rating, are higher. Whichever way, heli flying is expensive, even if you just rent/hourbuild.
If you can't get any funding from land/property at all next decade or two, work out back up plan/job/studies, that'd pay well to be able to make it.
Don't forget, flight crew in the UK (RAF/Navy) applications until 24yo, so try it out and see.
There's also no use of scraping years for PPL when you'd have to spend 3-5x more to qualify for job. Don't let the minimum CPL hours mislead you. You could get a job, legally, but insurance, company policies, experience required, all that, no way in hell. Even without European IR(H) - very costly affair, you'd need more hours for a chance to be sponsored by North Sea operators for IR rating and job with them, bonded, but from what I've read, it's less and less frequent and not likely with sub-200hrs.
You'd need to keep current, UK/JAA regulations, to keep the licence. You'd want to. Question is, how often you'd fly.
I've saved for years, slaving off in restaurants, night job, whatever, alongside my studies. I'm not youngest anymore, still studying, but engineering at least now.
Had I known the pain/disenchantment encountered over past years and future, I'd probably just fly gliders/PPL(A) for fun and focus on career that'd allow me to fly for fun.
Spare 50-80k? (GBP, depending on location, hours, luck, exchange rate, etc)
Then go for it. Do you want to save 10 or so years, killing your youth's free time, skimp on leisure expenses, travel, etc? Hmm, doable.
Or get highly paid job pronto and in few years it could be reality.
I'm flying gliders and tailwheel right now for fun, although will continue my rotary training later. If you really, really want it, it's possible. But don't be mad at anyone, especially not yourself if you have to save for years and realise it just may not be worth it, chasing dreams and not living life as it is, when you're young. It s
.Sorry for long-winded post, or own reflective blah blah, but I wanted to give you an idea. Be very aware of all the stuff ahead, read up ANO/LASORS/JAA FCL pertaining to helicopter licensing, check out some big schools in the US. At current rates, Australia, South Africa, NZ, none of them cheaper, their low rates..
Only rich/-ish people fly helicopters as a hobby. Most try to work flying them.
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Like the other posts, I would say that the options are 1) the armed forces, 2) find the cash.
I took option 2 as I'd have never been picked for option 1.
There is a chance that some kind soul like DK will give you a leg up, but let's face it, these chances are rare. Visit any training school and you will see successful middle aged people, young bucks sponsored by the bank of mum & dad and a bunch of mid to late 20's who have found a highly paid job and are using the money to buy themselves a poorly paid one. (But one they believe they'll enjoy more).
If you exclude the military route, being a professional helicopter pilot is a job you buy and I see no signs of that changing. Quite the opposite.
MikeBantam - Time to get that 4th paper round.
I took option 2 as I'd have never been picked for option 1.
There is a chance that some kind soul like DK will give you a leg up, but let's face it, these chances are rare. Visit any training school and you will see successful middle aged people, young bucks sponsored by the bank of mum & dad and a bunch of mid to late 20's who have found a highly paid job and are using the money to buy themselves a poorly paid one. (But one they believe they'll enjoy more).
If you exclude the military route, being a professional helicopter pilot is a job you buy and I see no signs of that changing. Quite the opposite.
MikeBantam - Time to get that 4th paper round.
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...and 7 years in engineering, plus some stock market wins is paying for mine.
Approx. costs as of now, assuming all training done in the UK:
PPL(H) - £15k
Hour building (generally 100 hours or so) - between £10k and £20k, depending how you do it
CPL(H) - £10k - £12k
IR(H) - £41k - £48k
This gives a minimum of £75k zero - IR, assuming you pay everything yourself. There are a few bursaries around, particularly if you're under 25, but they're few and far between, and the competition is fierce.
There are a number of ex-mil folk around, and this is a good way to short-circuit the training costs (assuming you don't mind being shot at for a living and can get in). You will probably have to do some conversion training to get the civil tickets (e.g. IR conversion), but the total costs to you are much much lower. How well military flying prepares you for a civil flying career is a topic of some debate.
If you're young, consider doing the '2 years overseas' thing - you still have to find the cash, but you tend to come out with more experience.
Good luck!
Approx. costs as of now, assuming all training done in the UK:
PPL(H) - £15k
Hour building (generally 100 hours or so) - between £10k and £20k, depending how you do it
CPL(H) - £10k - £12k
IR(H) - £41k - £48k
This gives a minimum of £75k zero - IR, assuming you pay everything yourself. There are a few bursaries around, particularly if you're under 25, but they're few and far between, and the competition is fierce.
There are a number of ex-mil folk around, and this is a good way to short-circuit the training costs (assuming you don't mind being shot at for a living and can get in). You will probably have to do some conversion training to get the civil tickets (e.g. IR conversion), but the total costs to you are much much lower. How well military flying prepares you for a civil flying career is a topic of some debate.
If you're young, consider doing the '2 years overseas' thing - you still have to find the cash, but you tend to come out with more experience.
Good luck!
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MikeB,
As Pandalet shows you brief breakdown, just to get idea.
I wouldn't say that the 100hrs hourbuilding is productive, regarding heli flying, although maybe part of JAA requirements. When I flew heli in the US, students did their solo circuits, PPL, XC solo etc, that's qualifying for CPL issue, but flew with instructors a lot, to chisel their skills. Maybe the PIC time after PPL FAA thing has something to do with it.
Assume you'd go to the US, to one of the 'past J1' school, currently using F1 as a patch, long story the reasons behind, Bristow Academy or Hillsboro Aviation (well, before you ask, Pelican in Florida use/d fixed wing J/F1 for heli students, but that's not too kosher from what I read and understand).
It'd cost you in the region of 70-90k USD (incl expenses) to finish up with 150 or 200hrs, so that you can instruct in R22 - again, FAA regulations, not just plain CPL with 150ish hours.
Same or bit more for Bristow. That's not including JAA IR(H), which is a long shot, for low hour pilots, to fast-track their way to co-joe seat in North Sea.
Instructing in Europe is safer bet, but then, you'd need to spend more on hour building towards higher hour requirements.
Depending on exchange rate, you can work it out yourself.
The '2 year thing' aka current F1 with two of these heli schools, would give you possibility/option to apply for and get heli instructing job. Again, very fierce competition for that in US. You aren't bound by the same school, you can look for job elsewhere so long your school sponsoring visa is in the loop. It's more restrictive, F1 now, that the J1 was, so beware of the rules.
As for maxing up credit cards. Ehrm, you may get away with 10-15k if you plan it, before the lenders get the gist and stop increasing the limits or decide not to give you another loan/card. Lending got more limited after credit issues in country and tons of people filing for bankruptcy. You can build your credit history, when you work, use the cards, etc. As way to do the whole training? Not likely. Short term help to finish up that one rating near completion - YES. Strategic plan to do whole lot on it and then wash your hands? - NO.
EDIT: Just noticed the title of thread yours was merged into. Disregard US stuff.
As Pandalet shows you brief breakdown, just to get idea.
I wouldn't say that the 100hrs hourbuilding is productive, regarding heli flying, although maybe part of JAA requirements. When I flew heli in the US, students did their solo circuits, PPL, XC solo etc, that's qualifying for CPL issue, but flew with instructors a lot, to chisel their skills. Maybe the PIC time after PPL FAA thing has something to do with it.
Assume you'd go to the US, to one of the 'past J1' school, currently using F1 as a patch, long story the reasons behind, Bristow Academy or Hillsboro Aviation (well, before you ask, Pelican in Florida use/d fixed wing J/F1 for heli students, but that's not too kosher from what I read and understand).
It'd cost you in the region of 70-90k USD (incl expenses) to finish up with 150 or 200hrs, so that you can instruct in R22 - again, FAA regulations, not just plain CPL with 150ish hours.
Same or bit more for Bristow. That's not including JAA IR(H), which is a long shot, for low hour pilots, to fast-track their way to co-joe seat in North Sea.
Instructing in Europe is safer bet, but then, you'd need to spend more on hour building towards higher hour requirements.
Depending on exchange rate, you can work it out yourself.
The '2 year thing' aka current F1 with two of these heli schools, would give you possibility/option to apply for and get heli instructing job. Again, very fierce competition for that in US. You aren't bound by the same school, you can look for job elsewhere so long your school sponsoring visa is in the loop. It's more restrictive, F1 now, that the J1 was, so beware of the rules.
As for maxing up credit cards. Ehrm, you may get away with 10-15k if you plan it, before the lenders get the gist and stop increasing the limits or decide not to give you another loan/card. Lending got more limited after credit issues in country and tons of people filing for bankruptcy. You can build your credit history, when you work, use the cards, etc. As way to do the whole training? Not likely. Short term help to finish up that one rating near completion - YES. Strategic plan to do whole lot on it and then wash your hands? - NO.
EDIT: Just noticed the title of thread yours was merged into. Disregard US stuff.
Last edited by MartinCh; 22nd Jul 2010 at 12:28.
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Moving up from a Robbie to a Turbine
Apologies if this has been asked before. Is it simply a matter of doing another type rating as in flying X number of hours on a turbine machine or does moving to a turbine engine require one to do a ground course as well? If so what time and cost is typically involved?
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Training costs
Pandalet,
I have not come up with the same costings, mine are considerably more.
Are you planning to do the PPL in the UK and the hour building and CPL abroard?
I have not come up with the same costings, mine are considerably more.
Are you planning to do the PPL in the UK and the hour building and CPL abroard?
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Goody35
In good old JAAR land, if you have a license on anything else - a Robbo? - then it is a type rating to move to a turbine like R66, EC120, B206, H500, etc. In addition to the minimum hours (5, I think) and a flight test there will be a ground exam to check your familiarity with the aircraft and its operating parameters; i.e. a typical type rating. Nothing more involved in moving from Avgas to first Turbine.
In good old JAAR land, if you have a license on anything else - a Robbo? - then it is a type rating to move to a turbine like R66, EC120, B206, H500, etc. In addition to the minimum hours (5, I think) and a flight test there will be a ground exam to check your familiarity with the aircraft and its operating parameters; i.e. a typical type rating. Nothing more involved in moving from Avgas to first Turbine.
Last edited by John R81; 19th Jul 2012 at 09:40.
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Hopefully the mods don't mind me bumping this thread?
I'm aiming to go from zero to CPL + IR. I have some savings set aside to get me to CPL + FI for sure, and hopefully if claiming VAT back is still possible, then will have enough to do IR too.
Does anybody have any 2016 recommendations which will help me get to the required hours to do CPL, FI and IR.
Has anyone got an up to date costings of what they have spent to get to this level?
Any input appreciated.
I'm aiming to go from zero to CPL + IR. I have some savings set aside to get me to CPL + FI for sure, and hopefully if claiming VAT back is still possible, then will have enough to do IR too.
Does anybody have any 2016 recommendations which will help me get to the required hours to do CPL, FI and IR.
Has anyone got an up to date costings of what they have spent to get to this level?
Any input appreciated.
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
I did gather that the VAT reclaiming would be a bit suspect, seeing as training schools become a bit tight lipped when you ask, understandably. I think I'm right in thinking that having a good accountant on board would help?
U.K. Training is my preferred (and only option) really. Young family etc, you catch my drift. But as you say, exchange rate, cost of living, would prob make the difference negligible anyway.
I understand what people say about the lack of jobs, but isn't that the same as any industry really? Far too many fish for the size tank...?
I've tried fixed wing and rotary and found the rotary to be more interesting. My ultimate aim would be for HEMS, and being 30 now I feel I could still easily have 30 years enjoying something that would be a handful to work with every day!
I did gather that the VAT reclaiming would be a bit suspect, seeing as training schools become a bit tight lipped when you ask, understandably. I think I'm right in thinking that having a good accountant on board would help?
U.K. Training is my preferred (and only option) really. Young family etc, you catch my drift. But as you say, exchange rate, cost of living, would prob make the difference negligible anyway.
I understand what people say about the lack of jobs, but isn't that the same as any industry really? Far too many fish for the size tank...?
I've tried fixed wing and rotary and found the rotary to be more interesting. My ultimate aim would be for HEMS, and being 30 now I feel I could still easily have 30 years enjoying something that would be a handful to work with every day!
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Hi There,
I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.
If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.
When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.
Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.
Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......
Feel free to PM me.
Good luck
I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.
If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.
When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.
Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.
Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......
Feel free to PM me.
Good luck
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Hi There,
I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.
If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.
When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.
Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.
Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs (just look at all the operators and see who is hiring) at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......
Feel free to PM me.
Good luck
I've recently completed CPL ME IR (2015). The best advice I would give you if you are set on doing it is go to the US, it is MUCH cheaper. Do an FAA licence and then convert to EASA. Also find a school that will give you a visa you can work in the US for a year and get some hours.
If you do an ME IR in the UK it will cost around GBP50,000+, however if you convert an FAA SE IR the cost is around GPB 30,000 as you only need to do a conversation, multi engine type rating and some hours refining your skills. I believe you can also do the FAA SE IR as part of your hours building so the only additional cost is a few more hours instruction.
When you've done the above if you want to stand a decent chance of finding work you need to factor in an FI ticket.
Do all that in the UK and you're looking at around GBP120,000 (excluding travel, accommodation opportunity cost of not working etc.), talk to a good accountant about claiming VAT back - it is possible and legal. Do it in the US (once the sterling recovers) and you'll save about 35% on that.
Honestly though, as fohnwind has said, there are almost no rotary jobs (just look at all the operators and see who is hiring) at the moment and a rapidly expanding fixed wing market......
Feel free to PM me.
Good luck