Insurance: Life, Loss of Licence, Sickness etc (NOT hull insurance)
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You need a specialist broker. I took out a life policy with a company called Sovereign a few years ago which was cheaper including helicopter risk than the big companies were without the flying risk! Sovereign has now been swallowed up by another company (not sure who).
I seem to recall Sovereign's view was that although the possibility of crashing puts up the risk, the frequent medicals and the safety culture of being a pilot made it less likely you would die elsewhere and this offset that extra risk.
Check the flying magazines for brokers.
I Hope this helps.
Phil.
I seem to recall Sovereign's view was that although the possibility of crashing puts up the risk, the frequent medicals and the safety culture of being a pilot made it less likely you would die elsewhere and this offset that extra risk.
Check the flying magazines for brokers.
I Hope this helps.
Phil.
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I have had the same problem trying to get life insurance as a full time pilot it is about 4 times greater than if I did not fly, I am trying to get a policy now that will exclude death by helicopter and so long as one don't drop out of the sky onto me I should be alright...
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Many moons ago ('71/72) I had to pay 50% loading as I was working offshore in the Gulf and consequently flying as SLF with Bristow's etc
Didn't like it but was persuaded that as there was a greater percieved risk then a loading was neccessary
A couple of years later, I came ashore and consequently approached my insurance company to remove the loading - their response was that I had to continue with the loading for a minimum of 12 months!!!
Cancelled policies immediately and told them to multiply - one side benefit of this was that I missed the 'endowment miss selling' that many of my colleagues were to suffer from
PZU - Out of Africa
Didn't like it but was persuaded that as there was a greater percieved risk then a loading was neccessary
A couple of years later, I came ashore and consequently approached my insurance company to remove the loading - their response was that I had to continue with the loading for a minimum of 12 months!!!
Cancelled policies immediately and told them to multiply - one side benefit of this was that I missed the 'endowment miss selling' that many of my colleagues were to suffer from
PZU - Out of Africa
Last edited by pzu; 4th Oct 2006 at 13:30.
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Many thanks for your responses guys. Have just received an email from my broker (having told him to tell the insurance company to swivel on it), that he's checked all the available life companies and only one, Legal & General, have agreed not to load the premium unless my annual hours flown exceeds 100 (I wish!). 
2Sticks
2Sticks
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In the US, several large groups offer term life at no add'l premium for pilots, including Reserve Officer's Association. The rates are typically very much lower than a separate policy from your agent. Term insurance (coverage for a specific time and no residual cash value) is the only way to go, any form of whole life/cash value insurance is virtually always a rip-off.
Changed mortgage last year and needed life ins so applied and was sent the relevant forms to fill out, no probs, ticket the box for professional Helli pilot. I was sent 8000 pages of questions to fill out like do i do filming, photography, medical runs etc, etc. Sent said forms off and low and behold 50% increase in the premium !!!!!!! Called the insurance company on the phone who said that because I was rotary and not plank I was a far greater risk and that was that. The offshore Helli ops have a far greater standard of training and professionalism that many small plank airlines so why the 50% hike. ??? ARSE
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I was insured through AFBA in the US years ago, and told that flying helicopters offshore would not increase my premium at all. This 50% increase must be a UK thing, and more proof that flying there is much more dangerous. 
Must be all those onerous regulations that make it so. 
Must be all those onerous regulations that make it so.
One can only imagine how much the loading would be if you told them you were flying helicopters in Nigeria these days (see what’s new in West Africa thread).
I was also faced with trying to get life insurance a good few years ago and when I finally got a quote and read the accompanying small print it did not cover any of the items that were responsible for the loading of the premium in the first place. Called up the broker and he tried to get any sense out of this by calling the insurance provider but they had no explanation except for take it or leave it attitude. Suffice to say I send them packing!
If you are a recreational pilot you might find some of the ads in the different pilot magazines for insurance policies.
Greetings
Finalchecksplease
I was also faced with trying to get life insurance a good few years ago and when I finally got a quote and read the accompanying small print it did not cover any of the items that were responsible for the loading of the premium in the first place. Called up the broker and he tried to get any sense out of this by calling the insurance provider but they had no explanation except for take it or leave it attitude. Suffice to say I send them packing!
If you are a recreational pilot you might find some of the ads in the different pilot magazines for insurance policies.
Greetings
Finalchecksplease
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My application was to L & G, they went from Ł9 per month life cover (without flying) to Ł35 per month (irrespective whether i flew that month), in the end and for a number of other reasons i gave up the flying
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Not to bring a down to the thread but you did ask.
My dad was killed doing a lift a long time ago back when the industry was tight & cash was even tighter ( can you imagine LOL ).
Only a few days or weeks prior ( I cant remember & am not asking my mum, the folks decided to cancel his insurance (had been paying it for along time without incident) as it was costing a packet & they were real tight for cash but would resume paying it when there was more work available.
He was a Chief Flight Instructor with plenty of hrs so the risk was low.
The accident was not his fault but the fault of the ground handler on the job.
My mom was awarded the maximum payout available at the time after a long court process & that was $64K.
It didnt go far and took too long to get.
The choice is yours I guess.
HF
My dad was killed doing a lift a long time ago back when the industry was tight & cash was even tighter ( can you imagine LOL ).
Only a few days or weeks prior ( I cant remember & am not asking my mum, the folks decided to cancel his insurance (had been paying it for along time without incident) as it was costing a packet & they were real tight for cash but would resume paying it when there was more work available.
He was a Chief Flight Instructor with plenty of hrs so the risk was low.
The accident was not his fault but the fault of the ground handler on the job.
My mom was awarded the maximum payout available at the time after a long court process & that was $64K.
It didnt go far and took too long to get.
The choice is yours I guess.
HF
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Update
Have just started looking into contracting for the immediate future. Insurance has my head spinning a bit...anybody with any advice? ConwayB, you still out there? What did you end up with? PM if you want to.
Cheers
MO
Cheers
MO
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I took some advice on the subject of commercial insurance recently, and was told that (at least in the UK) no-one will touch you as a freelance at anything resembling economic rates.
The insurance industry here is happy dealing with AOC (Public Transport) certificate holders, and other major contractors because they represent a known quantity.
I was advised that my best interests were served by ensuring that the terms of business under which I work set out clearly the limits of my liability, and the responsibilities of the company I'm working for to provide liability cover.
They drafted something appropriate and I put it on the back of all my invoices, on the principle that no-one will ever sign anything, but if they pay an invoice with terms attached then they implicitly must accept the terms.
On the personal insurance side (life, personal accident), best of luck ! Start with double the normal premium and then work up from there is my experience.
HTH, but maybe things are different over there.
The insurance industry here is happy dealing with AOC (Public Transport) certificate holders, and other major contractors because they represent a known quantity.
I was advised that my best interests were served by ensuring that the terms of business under which I work set out clearly the limits of my liability, and the responsibilities of the company I'm working for to provide liability cover.
They drafted something appropriate and I put it on the back of all my invoices, on the principle that no-one will ever sign anything, but if they pay an invoice with terms attached then they implicitly must accept the terms.
On the personal insurance side (life, personal accident), best of luck ! Start with double the normal premium and then work up from there is my experience.
HTH, but maybe things are different over there.
Maybe info this will help some
movin ‘on
Maybe I can help. When running the Robinson Safety Courses in Oz in the early nineties we were advised by the insurance industry and the government that one in four mustering (cattle herding) light helicopters crashed each year, assuming an annual utilization of 1,000 hours per year.
Due to the complexity of the insurance topics, and the number of people being underinsured, and being hurt in the hip pocket, I began using a number of insurance people from many companies and brokers in an attempt to try and get the right message to the pilots - as to how they can minimize their exposure. It was a hard task, as many insurance guys were not too sure either, and a mustering pilot was in the third highest loss category; after agricultural and private owners (I know it hurts to read the latter for some, but it is the truth!) World underwriters were hell bent on keeping away from the light helicopters in those bad old days.
A decade later, things have settled down, better training, education and supervision has resulted in a big improvement, according to one government department, which advises our CASA on policy, etc.
In fact, our fleet of 1,300 helicopters, over the past six years has had 215 accidents or one every ten days. Of the 215 accidents, 97 were R22 and 14 R44. For the “boffins” amongst us, slightly less than half the fleet are Robinsons (600). Although the R22 flies more hours than the remainder of the fleet, by a large margin.
So how do we compare this to the bad old days? Today, a mustering machine doing the same 1,000 hours pa goes 6 years between accidents, rather 4 a decade ago. The agricultural boys (very few now) and the private owners (now lots) are neck and neck to have the worst accident rate. Unfortunately, there are far more private owners than agricultural operators, no doubt the drought! The private pilot flying 250 hours per year, will have an accident every 6 years – the same as the mustering pilot, but only flying 25% of the hours – the lesson here is very obvious.
Thus the need to have some form of protection for the pilots who may be flying someone else’s machine that may not have insurance, or only partial insurance. Especially, when you hit a wire, injure the passenger and blackout a coal mine, causing mayhem in the mine!
Also, you can’t walk away from the fact that light helicopters kill the pilot in every ten accidents. (About six in your Cessna single engine – goes faster). For every one killed, a large number end up holding a pretty nurse’s hand in a country hospital, recovering from a serious injury. Funerals and roses for your pretty nurse cost money!
The past thirteen years proved we must cover two areas of exposure by using sensible insurance products, they are:
1. The helicopter and all those who go inside and whatever you hit outside, and
2. The nut behind the wheel (you), if you get injured and can’t walk the streets for awhile.
The Oz industry has been supported by many companies who have provided guest speakers to all the pilot gatherings. There is not enough space to list them all; however, two have appeared more often than most and their presentations were found to be very relevant:
They are:
For the helicopter, passengers and what you hit: Ian Tait [email protected]
For you, loss of license, trauma covers, etc: John Ellis [email protected]
ConwayB: John was the person you were trying to contact as per a previous post.
"What happens to you after the accident depends on what you did before the accident." Words of wisdom from the insurance gurus.
Safe flying, a special thought to the fire fighters around the world - we have lost three helicopters in the past month.
fom - ans insurance netned idnet et before the accinde
Maybe I can help. When running the Robinson Safety Courses in Oz in the early nineties we were advised by the insurance industry and the government that one in four mustering (cattle herding) light helicopters crashed each year, assuming an annual utilization of 1,000 hours per year.
Due to the complexity of the insurance topics, and the number of people being underinsured, and being hurt in the hip pocket, I began using a number of insurance people from many companies and brokers in an attempt to try and get the right message to the pilots - as to how they can minimize their exposure. It was a hard task, as many insurance guys were not too sure either, and a mustering pilot was in the third highest loss category; after agricultural and private owners (I know it hurts to read the latter for some, but it is the truth!) World underwriters were hell bent on keeping away from the light helicopters in those bad old days.
A decade later, things have settled down, better training, education and supervision has resulted in a big improvement, according to one government department, which advises our CASA on policy, etc.
In fact, our fleet of 1,300 helicopters, over the past six years has had 215 accidents or one every ten days. Of the 215 accidents, 97 were R22 and 14 R44. For the “boffins” amongst us, slightly less than half the fleet are Robinsons (600). Although the R22 flies more hours than the remainder of the fleet, by a large margin.
So how do we compare this to the bad old days? Today, a mustering machine doing the same 1,000 hours pa goes 6 years between accidents, rather 4 a decade ago. The agricultural boys (very few now) and the private owners (now lots) are neck and neck to have the worst accident rate. Unfortunately, there are far more private owners than agricultural operators, no doubt the drought! The private pilot flying 250 hours per year, will have an accident every 6 years – the same as the mustering pilot, but only flying 25% of the hours – the lesson here is very obvious.
Thus the need to have some form of protection for the pilots who may be flying someone else’s machine that may not have insurance, or only partial insurance. Especially, when you hit a wire, injure the passenger and blackout a coal mine, causing mayhem in the mine!
Also, you can’t walk away from the fact that light helicopters kill the pilot in every ten accidents. (About six in your Cessna single engine – goes faster). For every one killed, a large number end up holding a pretty nurse’s hand in a country hospital, recovering from a serious injury. Funerals and roses for your pretty nurse cost money!
The past thirteen years proved we must cover two areas of exposure by using sensible insurance products, they are:
1. The helicopter and all those who go inside and whatever you hit outside, and
2. The nut behind the wheel (you), if you get injured and can’t walk the streets for awhile.
The Oz industry has been supported by many companies who have provided guest speakers to all the pilot gatherings. There is not enough space to list them all; however, two have appeared more often than most and their presentations were found to be very relevant:
They are:
For the helicopter, passengers and what you hit: Ian Tait [email protected]
For you, loss of license, trauma covers, etc: John Ellis [email protected]
ConwayB: John was the person you were trying to contact as per a previous post.
"What happens to you after the accident depends on what you did before the accident." Words of wisdom from the insurance gurus.
Safe flying, a special thought to the fire fighters around the world - we have lost three helicopters in the past month.
fom - ans insurance netned idnet et before the accinde
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The Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) has a Mutual Benefit Fund for its members which offers loss of licence insurance and death cover. It can also cover you as an Australian pilot working overseas.
It's worth a look.
DF
It's worth a look.
DF
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I would just echo what has already been said re: the UK. It seems pretty impossible to get much useful insurance at all for freelancers.
I do remember a piece from the BHAB about getting suitable wording added to hele aircraft insurance policies to cover freelancers. If you have a hele owned by one party and a second party use it for AOC work, then it is normal that the aircraft insurance covers both owner and operator. It is possible to also get it to cover the pilot, if he is self-employed too.
I do remember a piece from the BHAB about getting suitable wording added to hele aircraft insurance policies to cover freelancers. If you have a hele owned by one party and a second party use it for AOC work, then it is normal that the aircraft insurance covers both owner and operator. It is possible to also get it to cover the pilot, if he is self-employed too.
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Loss of Licence insurance
Hi Folks, i am currently trying to find a decent Loss of Licence Insurance that will cover a NorthSea Heli Pilot anyone got any suggestions, recomendations, tips or advice???
cheers
T4
cheers
T4