Solo Students Weather Limits
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Solo Students Weather Limits
I am interested to know what Weather Limits (vis, cloudbase) are put upon solo helicopter students during a course (PPL and CPL) at training establishments around the world.
Limits may vary between circuit work, general handling in the training area, and cross-country nav including the landaway flight.
Do national authorities place their own minima or do the schools just make up their own?
What is safe? Should there be an amount of discretion from the authorising instructor or should limits be limits?
Limits may vary between circuit work, general handling in the training area, and cross-country nav including the landaway flight.
Do national authorities place their own minima or do the schools just make up their own?
What is safe? Should there be an amount of discretion from the authorising instructor or should limits be limits?
Hovering AND talking
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The Rule Book at the FTO where I fly has 8km vis and 2,000 ft cloudbase.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Whirlygig
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Whirlygig
JAA flight schools write their own training manual which has in it the limits.
Like Whirlygig said itīs very usual to have 8km & 2000' . Often there are wind limts as well, such as 15 kts for solo students for example!
I would think that only the chief instructor / Head of training or flight operations manager could give permission to fly in the weather worse than the limits in the handbook allow and then only for a good reason.
Like Whirlygig said itīs very usual to have 8km & 2000' . Often there are wind limts as well, such as 15 kts for solo students for example!
I would think that only the chief instructor / Head of training or flight operations manager could give permission to fly in the weather worse than the limits in the handbook allow and then only for a good reason.
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Hello,
For any pilot not yet rated in the aircraft.
FAA Regulations: 61.89
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;
(7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface; or
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook by an authorized instructor.
These regulations are the general regulations for any student pilot (Fixed or Rotary or balloon etc...)
The last line above (8) is the important one. In this line authority is given to the instructor to impose legal requirements which may be in addition to 6 & 7.
I would start my students with a 5 SM viz, 15kt wind limitation, and no clouds below 1000'.
Note that the general topic of number 8 is not specified. There is nothing to stop an instructor (in theory) demanding anything of the student...."Student must have a cigarette and coffee before solo flight!" or "Student must wear flat sole shoes!"
In addition to the logbook limitations, there is always the 'weather on the day' that may make me less inclined to authorise the flight. Winds 06G12 is more difficult than a steady 15kt wind. OR crosswinds at the ramp make for wobbly setdowns close to other helicopters and people. OR clouds forecast to build rapidly over the next hour or so.
For general hire of aircraft
There are also differing limitations (imposed by the school for any solo hire of aircraft) for different types of flight. For example, solo cross country-6SM / clouds 2000', local area-5SM / clouds 1500, and pattern-3SM / clouds 1000', cross-country (night)-10sm / clouds 4000'.
Hope this helps.
cl12pv2s
For any pilot not yet rated in the aircraft.
FAA Regulations: 61.89
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;
(7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface; or
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook by an authorized instructor.
These regulations are the general regulations for any student pilot (Fixed or Rotary or balloon etc...)
The last line above (8) is the important one. In this line authority is given to the instructor to impose legal requirements which may be in addition to 6 & 7.
I would start my students with a 5 SM viz, 15kt wind limitation, and no clouds below 1000'.
Note that the general topic of number 8 is not specified. There is nothing to stop an instructor (in theory) demanding anything of the student...."Student must have a cigarette and coffee before solo flight!" or "Student must wear flat sole shoes!"
In addition to the logbook limitations, there is always the 'weather on the day' that may make me less inclined to authorise the flight. Winds 06G12 is more difficult than a steady 15kt wind. OR crosswinds at the ramp make for wobbly setdowns close to other helicopters and people. OR clouds forecast to build rapidly over the next hour or so.
For general hire of aircraft
There are also differing limitations (imposed by the school for any solo hire of aircraft) for different types of flight. For example, solo cross country-6SM / clouds 2000', local area-5SM / clouds 1500, and pattern-3SM / clouds 1000', cross-country (night)-10sm / clouds 4000'.
Hope this helps.
cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 14th Jul 2005 at 00:33.
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Malla:
Its always at the instructors descretion working of coarse within the boundries (if any) set by CFI or the company, the main governing rules are those basic VFR rules set by the Authority in your country but as we know they are far more generous than that you would be happy sending your student into.
Our limits are the Basic VFR rules and then of coarse its down to the instructor to decide if appropriate for even that particular student.
Setting limits to take away decision making cost money ie: min viz 8kms and so its 7kms and hes only flying local but hes grounded. Even if you follow company limts and send him solo its still you who is responsible.
cheers:
Its always at the instructors descretion working of coarse within the boundries (if any) set by CFI or the company, the main governing rules are those basic VFR rules set by the Authority in your country but as we know they are far more generous than that you would be happy sending your student into.
Our limits are the Basic VFR rules and then of coarse its down to the instructor to decide if appropriate for even that particular student.
Setting limits to take away decision making cost money ie: min viz 8kms and so its 7kms and hes only flying local but hes grounded. Even if you follow company limts and send him solo its still you who is responsible.
cheers:
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...and some FIs are just callous, stupid, money grabbing gits.
Viz: was flying two crew in a very marginal conditions along a VFR route following four rows of power lines to a local venue. Was considering aborting as the mist was down to within fifty feet of the tops of the power lines and viz about 200 metres (in fact, did land 15 minutes further on as it got even worse and waited it out).
In response to my radio calls, I hear a call of another rotor wing coming the other way along the same route allegedly 500 feet higher (in the soup ?). I reply confirming my altitude and QNH and that we would remain to the north of the power lines, suggesting he flies to the south for obvious reasons. He agrees to this.
Thirty seconds later, co-pilot (flying) throws sixty degree bank turn to the left as a gyropcopter at the same altitude and on our side of the power lines (the north side) almost flies straight through the windscreen. Copilot puts us right side up and I ask the other guy what the hell he's doing and doesn't he know his QNH or his north from his south.
'Very sorry, ' he replies, 'I'm only a student on my second solo cross country.'
I politely questioned the judgement of his instructor and he quickly agreed maybe this wasn't a day for student cross countries...
Viz: was flying two crew in a very marginal conditions along a VFR route following four rows of power lines to a local venue. Was considering aborting as the mist was down to within fifty feet of the tops of the power lines and viz about 200 metres (in fact, did land 15 minutes further on as it got even worse and waited it out).
In response to my radio calls, I hear a call of another rotor wing coming the other way along the same route allegedly 500 feet higher (in the soup ?). I reply confirming my altitude and QNH and that we would remain to the north of the power lines, suggesting he flies to the south for obvious reasons. He agrees to this.
Thirty seconds later, co-pilot (flying) throws sixty degree bank turn to the left as a gyropcopter at the same altitude and on our side of the power lines (the north side) almost flies straight through the windscreen. Copilot puts us right side up and I ask the other guy what the hell he's doing and doesn't he know his QNH or his north from his south.
'Very sorry, ' he replies, 'I'm only a student on my second solo cross country.'
I politely questioned the judgement of his instructor and he quickly agreed maybe this wasn't a day for student cross countries...
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Goaround7
Glad your still here to tell the story, i recon that would have been worth following up, or did you?
Im a Cpl-H instructing in the middle east but i love to go back to my roots and fly gyros and what ever else i can get for free
, when i can.
But i see that all too often in the world of the ultralight aviation scene as you say, money before common sense.
It is possible it was an excuse and a quick witty response from a utter idiot to avoid recoarse, but sadley may have been a solo as you say acting in faith to a greedy instructor. Good point.
Glad your still here to tell the story, i recon that would have been worth following up, or did you?
Im a Cpl-H instructing in the middle east but i love to go back to my roots and fly gyros and what ever else i can get for free
, when i can.But i see that all too often in the world of the ultralight aviation scene as you say, money before common sense.
It is possible it was an excuse and a quick witty response from a utter idiot to avoid recoarse, but sadley may have been a solo as you say acting in faith to a greedy instructor. Good point.
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Thank you to those who replied.
It appears, as I thought, that the instructor is caught between and rock and a hard place.
If you stick to the weather limits and let the student fly, its still the instructor's fault if something goes wrong. So, the more cautious of us will not send students solo on the limits but a little above them. But then comes the money factor for the company and if you hold to your principles too long, possible loss of a job.
My thoughts are that the limits should be set above that for basic VFR. If after a student gets airborne at the VFR limits and the weather comes down, then he's flying SVFR or even IMC (dread to think). So surely there should be a margin of safety for the instructor as well as the student.
Still interested to hear what other training establishments do.
Thanks
It appears, as I thought, that the instructor is caught between and rock and a hard place.
If you stick to the weather limits and let the student fly, its still the instructor's fault if something goes wrong. So, the more cautious of us will not send students solo on the limits but a little above them. But then comes the money factor for the company and if you hold to your principles too long, possible loss of a job.
My thoughts are that the limits should be set above that for basic VFR. If after a student gets airborne at the VFR limits and the weather comes down, then he's flying SVFR or even IMC (dread to think). So surely there should be a margin of safety for the instructor as well as the student.
Still interested to hear what other training establishments do.
Thanks
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Quick Release,
Yes, did follow up and was told by the chief instructor that I spoke to, that the instructor concerned ( a different one) must need his head examining and it would be investigated. Never heard anything further though...
Perhaps the instructor was already at home, having a coffee and would wander back to base about the time the student was due back...
(nothing against instructors in general, I am one too.)
Yes, did follow up and was told by the chief instructor that I spoke to, that the instructor concerned ( a different one) must need his head examining and it would be investigated. Never heard anything further though...
Perhaps the instructor was already at home, having a coffee and would wander back to base about the time the student was due back...
(nothing against instructors in general, I am one too.)
