Something mysterious in Snowdonia
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If they are, then the c**p dissemination of information is largely to blame. I'm certain that no GA pilot would knowingly fly through a TRA, bearing in mind the consequences.
I disagree with your assertion that the dissemination is to blame. I believe it lies fairly and squarely with the pilots and poor flight planning, in these specific instances. A point of view also shared by the judge in a recent well publicised prosecution.
How did pilots ever cope with getting NOTAMs before the advent of telephone and internet based facilities ??
Hi PPRune Radar
It was much much easier to get the NOTAMs before the advent of telephone! Homing Pigeons were trained to intercept the aircraft prior to entering the relevant area. The pilot then read the notice attached to its leg and the Chief Steward would have the bird cooked for the Captains supper prior to landing. Great system!
TeeS
It was much much easier to get the NOTAMs before the advent of telephone! Homing Pigeons were trained to intercept the aircraft prior to entering the relevant area. The pilot then read the notice attached to its leg and the Chief Steward would have the bird cooked for the Captains supper prior to landing. Great system!
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Hang on a minute Headsethair, do you mean TRA or TDA. TRAs are planned in advance and therefore are included in AICs and NOTAMs. As a result they can be planned for as Pprune Radar has pointed out. There is no excuse for busting TRAs and this has been tested in the courts to the detriment of the pilots concerned. We are talking TDAs here (unless I have missed something).
SAROPS take on a whole variety of tasks, ranging from a snatch and dash to a search lasting a couple of days. But in all cases, there is an aircraft that may not be able to comply with the rules of the air and the TDA is set up to protect that aircraft and its crew. ARCC Kinloss do an admirable job setting up these TDAs and disseminating that information. I wasn't aware until Crab mentioned it that it was transmitted on 121.5. Maybe I should now, but I am not convinced that it would be much good owing to the terrain and altitude I operate at.
Crab,
I would imagine that where you operate most fast jets will hear a TDA promulgated on 121.5 or guard, but what about your colleagues who operate in the Lake District, North Pennines and Scotland? Will a FJ operating within the HRA hear it? The sad facts are that TDAs offer no guarentee of protect from any form of traffic, although of course they should reduce the risks.
I find it sad that aviation comms are still in the dark ages when small yachts can receive sat television via a gyrostabilised dish anywhere in the world. Why can't aviation comms be done via satelite and get away from ye olde VHF sets which can hide behind hills?
SAROPS take on a whole variety of tasks, ranging from a snatch and dash to a search lasting a couple of days. But in all cases, there is an aircraft that may not be able to comply with the rules of the air and the TDA is set up to protect that aircraft and its crew. ARCC Kinloss do an admirable job setting up these TDAs and disseminating that information. I wasn't aware until Crab mentioned it that it was transmitted on 121.5. Maybe I should now, but I am not convinced that it would be much good owing to the terrain and altitude I operate at.
Crab,
I would imagine that where you operate most fast jets will hear a TDA promulgated on 121.5 or guard, but what about your colleagues who operate in the Lake District, North Pennines and Scotland? Will a FJ operating within the HRA hear it? The sad facts are that TDAs offer no guarentee of protect from any form of traffic, although of course they should reduce the risks.
I find it sad that aviation comms are still in the dark ages when small yachts can receive sat television via a gyrostabilised dish anywhere in the world. Why can't aviation comms be done via satelite and get away from ye olde VHF sets which can hide behind hills?
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Crab, you're definitely heading for either politics or the law when you leave the mil. I looked at that web link - and I read the whole article. You've only read what you want to read.
"Finally, the number of infringements attributed to GA pilots must be considered within the conrtext of the number of GA pilots and aircraft, and the number of flights and hours flown by them. GAMTA, on their website www.gamta.org , state that there are over 8,000 GA aircraft in the UK, representing more than 90% of UK-registered civil aircraft. No statistics are available to show exactly how many GA flights are undertaken and how many hours are flown in any given year, but it is probably safe to say that that those flights resulting in an airspace infringement represent a small proportion of these. That does not suggest there is not a problem, as each infringement will carry with it some degree of flight safety risk. Infringements are caused by all sectors of the aviation community and every effort should be made to reduce the number of occurrences."
"Finally, the number of infringements attributed to GA pilots must be considered within the conrtext of the number of GA pilots and aircraft, and the number of flights and hours flown by them. GAMTA, on their website www.gamta.org , state that there are over 8,000 GA aircraft in the UK, representing more than 90% of UK-registered civil aircraft. No statistics are available to show exactly how many GA flights are undertaken and how many hours are flown in any given year, but it is probably safe to say that that those flights resulting in an airspace infringement represent a small proportion of these. That does not suggest there is not a problem, as each infringement will carry with it some degree of flight safety risk. Infringements are caused by all sectors of the aviation community and every effort should be made to reduce the number of occurrences."
Thread Starter
Headsethair - that is their way of trying to move the blame for GA infringements, they are saying that with such a huge number of aircraft movements, the number of infringements is small as a percentage. That is true but lies, damn lies and statistics doesn't get away from the fact that the number of infringements occur, 'each carrying with it some degree of flight safety risk'.
Crashondeck - to my knowledge the FJ don't monitor 121.5, only 243.0 but they should hear a TDA broadcast in most parts of the UK; where they don't, then such is life,we'll carry on with lookout and hoping they see us. TDAs are not perfect but they're all we have.
SASless - and you have to get someone to pay for the radios - we often suffer from the 'we've done it this way for 20 years and didn't need radios then' sort of mentality which is why we are still flying with the same cr*p avionics fit in the Mk3 Sea King.
As for the Reds - I once listened to an air trafficer (at a grass airfield in Hampshire) give take-off clearance to a Cessna just as the Reds had called running in from 5 miles to start their display! And he did!
Crashondeck - to my knowledge the FJ don't monitor 121.5, only 243.0 but they should hear a TDA broadcast in most parts of the UK; where they don't, then such is life,we'll carry on with lookout and hoping they see us. TDAs are not perfect but they're all we have.
SASless - and you have to get someone to pay for the radios - we often suffer from the 'we've done it this way for 20 years and didn't need radios then' sort of mentality which is why we are still flying with the same cr*p avionics fit in the Mk3 Sea King.
As for the Reds - I once listened to an air trafficer (at a grass airfield in Hampshire) give take-off clearance to a Cessna just as the Reds had called running in from 5 miles to start their display! And he did!
So, enough...........
If I wanted to drop some hikers off on Snowdon, where would be a good place to start and, more importantly, where's a nice local hotel for me to park and scoff?
Must confess, most civvy aircraft I've flown have 2 radios as a matter of course.
I regulary fly through Snowdonia enroute Abersoch, boxes are flicked around the local frequencies, depending on success, and London Mil or Info, anyone who would hear me if I had to land asap.
A gaggle of Helos would provide excellent mutual support but am a bit surprised to hear that they were not on Caernafon freq, but then I'm not sure where they were operating.
Fly Safe.........we are not all invincible when we climb into our single-engined, piston-powered, fragile, whirling machine - hats off to those that do.
If I wanted to drop some hikers off on Snowdon, where would be a good place to start and, more importantly, where's a nice local hotel for me to park and scoff?
Must confess, most civvy aircraft I've flown have 2 radios as a matter of course.
I regulary fly through Snowdonia enroute Abersoch, boxes are flicked around the local frequencies, depending on success, and London Mil or Info, anyone who would hear me if I had to land asap.
A gaggle of Helos would provide excellent mutual support but am a bit surprised to hear that they were not on Caernafon freq, but then I'm not sure where they were operating.
Fly Safe.........we are not all invincible when we climb into our single-engined, piston-powered, fragile, whirling machine - hats off to those that do.
Better red than ...
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If I wanted to drop some hikers off on Snowdon, where would be a good place to start
Ah but Zeb....one must be on his frequency!!!
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Oh My God
Fer Chr1sts sake everyone
All Crab is saying that everyone, where possible should monitor 121.5 Not even so you can hear messages from ATC(poor line of sight etc) but so we can all act as a safety net for each other.
What is the problem with that? i personally would like to hope that when i fly that others are monitoring the distress freqs, so if i have to put down in a hurry someone, anyone may hear me - not just ATC.
Are we not all aviators and do we not have to look out for each other? All crab did was go and rescue someone and then try tonform the other airspace users that he was there. What is the drama?
I have heard some absolute cr@p on this thread from people telling crab to get over it - he is just suggesting that we should help each other and if the rest of you pontificating pilots can't see that then I hope I never have to put down in a hurry near any of you because I knwo you'll never help.
The TDA system exists to inform poeple of SAROPs etc. What is the problem with that?? For Chr1sts sake inromation to make everyone's life easier and safer is out there but no-one wants to use it.
HEMS/EMS - why don't you get a TDA announced so that when you are trying to land and you are slow and not very manouverable and looking for wires etc you don't collect a fast jet up the arse!! What is wrong with trying make things safer???
There are so many of you on this thread who need to pull their heads out of their @rses and realise that just cos nothing has happened so far that it doesn't mean that it won't in the future.
Crab, my respects. You are a professional aviator who is trying to amke the aviation world a safer place. If the rest of the bean counters and crab bashers can't see that i hope that you get a job with the CAA and force them from the skies.
Rant over.
Regards
The Saint
Soory for the spelling and capitals etc. I was angry typing and I apologise.
All Crab is saying that everyone, where possible should monitor 121.5 Not even so you can hear messages from ATC(poor line of sight etc) but so we can all act as a safety net for each other.
What is the problem with that? i personally would like to hope that when i fly that others are monitoring the distress freqs, so if i have to put down in a hurry someone, anyone may hear me - not just ATC.
Are we not all aviators and do we not have to look out for each other? All crab did was go and rescue someone and then try tonform the other airspace users that he was there. What is the drama?
I have heard some absolute cr@p on this thread from people telling crab to get over it - he is just suggesting that we should help each other and if the rest of you pontificating pilots can't see that then I hope I never have to put down in a hurry near any of you because I knwo you'll never help.
The TDA system exists to inform poeple of SAROPs etc. What is the problem with that?? For Chr1sts sake inromation to make everyone's life easier and safer is out there but no-one wants to use it.
HEMS/EMS - why don't you get a TDA announced so that when you are trying to land and you are slow and not very manouverable and looking for wires etc you don't collect a fast jet up the arse!! What is wrong with trying make things safer???
There are so many of you on this thread who need to pull their heads out of their @rses and realise that just cos nothing has happened so far that it doesn't mean that it won't in the future.
Crab, my respects. You are a professional aviator who is trying to amke the aviation world a safer place. If the rest of the bean counters and crab bashers can't see that i hope that you get a job with the CAA and force them from the skies.
Rant over.
Regards
The Saint
Soory for the spelling and capitals etc. I was angry typing and I apologise.
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Something mysterious in Snowdon indeed!
Crab
It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that are taking, in my opinion, a stupid risk by not listening to an internationally recognised frequency. There is a lot of talk about "real world", and a hint of bad feeling towards mil ops and procedures/principles.
If listening to 121.5 for the whole of an aviator's life means that they hear one distress call, and hence an immediate response is possible (as apose to delayed response ala overdue action) then that must be worth while?
There seems to be a lot of burying ones head in the sand? I know it is easy to preach the monitoring of victor guard if we already have a radio that does that, but come on guys, make our life easier - i would rather have to respond to a mayday in the general area of 'X', for instance, than have to search the whole route that the over due aircraft was believed to have taken.
As an example, about 2 years ago, a civvie was flying over Snowdon and suffered an engine failure, but he was in cloud at the time and descended into the mountains, IMC, was extremely lucky because he crash landed on a flat surface - he was very messed up but did manage to put a radio call out on guard. The boys in yellow were able to find him after 45 mins of searching - his life most definetely saved by a transmission on 121.5. I am not sure who picked up the 121.5 transmission - I think it was D & D, as the initial height was 6000'.
Good on you Crab for sticking to your guns.
spud
It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that are taking, in my opinion, a stupid risk by not listening to an internationally recognised frequency. There is a lot of talk about "real world", and a hint of bad feeling towards mil ops and procedures/principles.
If listening to 121.5 for the whole of an aviator's life means that they hear one distress call, and hence an immediate response is possible (as apose to delayed response ala overdue action) then that must be worth while?
There seems to be a lot of burying ones head in the sand? I know it is easy to preach the monitoring of victor guard if we already have a radio that does that, but come on guys, make our life easier - i would rather have to respond to a mayday in the general area of 'X', for instance, than have to search the whole route that the over due aircraft was believed to have taken.
As an example, about 2 years ago, a civvie was flying over Snowdon and suffered an engine failure, but he was in cloud at the time and descended into the mountains, IMC, was extremely lucky because he crash landed on a flat surface - he was very messed up but did manage to put a radio call out on guard. The boys in yellow were able to find him after 45 mins of searching - his life most definetely saved by a transmission on 121.5. I am not sure who picked up the 121.5 transmission - I think it was D & D, as the initial height was 6000'.
Good on you Crab for sticking to your guns.
spud
Steve
Wouldn't go there in a 44!!
Not sure of the name of the place, twin white gables, dog balls features coming from the East!! Private garden blah blah on the headland, nice private site.
Red-eye
The Pen y Gwryd hotel?
Wouldn't go there in a 44!!
Not sure of the name of the place, twin white gables, dog balls features coming from the East!! Private garden blah blah on the headland, nice private site.
Red-eye
The Pen y Gwryd hotel?
Crab, whether listrening to 121.5 or not, I wonder why anyone would want to fly in and around the hills without getting paid for it?
Helicopter mountaineers with spare money to burn are welcome to it.
Me, I'm a helicopter sherpa; no pay, no go.
Helicopter mountaineers with spare money to burn are welcome to it.
Me, I'm a helicopter sherpa; no pay, no go.
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Hot Spud,
Of the three Mayday calls I have heard over RT, all three were made on the local aerodrome frequency. Rather than spend money on a new radio, I would rather spend it on an ELT. That way you SAR people could home right to me instead of spending 45 minutes searching.
Having 121.5 set on a second box may well be a good idea for the cross country aviator, but I believe that the reason Crab has managed to get so many backs up is that he is perceived as expecting everyone to conform the RAF way of doing things. There is no resolution to this execpt to say by tuning into 121.5 increases your chances of hearing of TDAs and increases the chances of you being heard. But even if everyone did tune into 121.5, TDAs will still get busted and Maydays will still be missed.
Of the three Mayday calls I have heard over RT, all three were made on the local aerodrome frequency. Rather than spend money on a new radio, I would rather spend it on an ELT. That way you SAR people could home right to me instead of spending 45 minutes searching.
Having 121.5 set on a second box may well be a good idea for the cross country aviator, but I believe that the reason Crab has managed to get so many backs up is that he is perceived as expecting everyone to conform the RAF way of doing things. There is no resolution to this execpt to say by tuning into 121.5 increases your chances of hearing of TDAs and increases the chances of you being heard. But even if everyone did tune into 121.5, TDAs will still get busted and Maydays will still be missed.
Thread Starter
Droopy, just to make things clear - monitoring 121.5 is not the 'RAF way of doing things', just something I believe is sensible for all the reasons mentioned in the posts. As I have highlighted before, the nautical community provide mutual support and therefore increased safety by monitoring the emergency frequency and I am very surprised that this is not done more widely in aviation. Some TDAs might still get busted and some maydays might get missed, but anything that reduces the number of such events has surely got to be a good thing - or should we just do nothing?
If I have got backs up ( and I certainly seem to have) then at least I have focussed peoples attention on flight safety and raised awareness of TDAs and TRAs - that is worth the abuse.
If I have got backs up ( and I certainly seem to have) then at least I have focussed peoples attention on flight safety and raised awareness of TDAs and TRAs - that is worth the abuse.
Crab,
One thing has been intriguing me: do you actually have a Milspec VHF comm with 121.5 monitoring (TR+G), or are you on a UHF set and "only" monitoring 243.0/guard?
One thing has been intriguing me: do you actually have a Milspec VHF comm with 121.5 monitoring (TR+G), or are you on a UHF set and "only" monitoring 243.0/guard?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
crab,
Lets suppose I have a need to fly in the Snowdonia area later this afternoon, anyone got a spare map?
I was wondering, if I could only use 1 of my 6 radios, which frequency would give me, selfishly, the best chance of getting picked up by someone, should anything untoward happen to me?
Shall I use 121.5 in the hope someone has it dialled up?
Or shall I use;
122.475 in case there is a balloon in the area?
128.825 in case there is a microlight in the area?
129.9 incase there is a hanglider in the area?
There may be some gliders about, so do I use;
129.975 Ch4
130.1 Ch2
130.125 Ch3
130.4 'gliders'
or maybe 131.4 Ch1 ?
Maybe I have a better chance with 131.5 where a passing Air Lingus aircraft may be able to help out!
Anyone got the freq for Ryanair?
Perhaps if I could time the flight so that the International space station was overhead, I could dial up their frequency, but which one?
Voice and Packet Downlink: 145.80 (Worldwide)
Voice Uplink: 145.20 for Region 1 (Europe, Central Asia and Africa)
Packet Uplink: 145.99 (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater downlink: 145.80 MHz (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater uplink: 437.80 MHz (Worldwide)
All frequencies are subject to Doppler shifting.
Sourse ARISS
Maybe the Shuttle, once up again, could help out;
145.8000 Primairy Downlink Shuttle-Earth: Voice (FM-N) and packetradio
145.5500 Downlink Shuttle to Earth
145.8400 Downlink Shuttle to Earth
144.4900 Uplinkfrequency for European amateurs
144.4700 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
144.4500 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
Source2
I think we need to increase the freq range of the radios we have do this though!
Just a thought, because I wondered if these users of the air/space monitored or were even able to reply on 121.5 aswell as use their own user freqs?
Just in the planning stage at the mo, so your advice would be appreciated.
SS
p.s. Frequencies from t'internet so could be bollix!
p.p.s. Not to be taken seriously!
Lets suppose I have a need to fly in the Snowdonia area later this afternoon, anyone got a spare map?
I was wondering, if I could only use 1 of my 6 radios, which frequency would give me, selfishly, the best chance of getting picked up by someone, should anything untoward happen to me?
Shall I use 121.5 in the hope someone has it dialled up?
Or shall I use;
122.475 in case there is a balloon in the area?
128.825 in case there is a microlight in the area?
129.9 incase there is a hanglider in the area?
There may be some gliders about, so do I use;
129.975 Ch4
130.1 Ch2
130.125 Ch3
130.4 'gliders'
or maybe 131.4 Ch1 ?
Maybe I have a better chance with 131.5 where a passing Air Lingus aircraft may be able to help out!
Anyone got the freq for Ryanair?
Perhaps if I could time the flight so that the International space station was overhead, I could dial up their frequency, but which one?
Voice and Packet Downlink: 145.80 (Worldwide)
Voice Uplink: 145.20 for Region 1 (Europe, Central Asia and Africa)
Packet Uplink: 145.99 (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater downlink: 145.80 MHz (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater uplink: 437.80 MHz (Worldwide)
All frequencies are subject to Doppler shifting.
Sourse ARISS
Maybe the Shuttle, once up again, could help out;
145.8000 Primairy Downlink Shuttle-Earth: Voice (FM-N) and packetradio
145.5500 Downlink Shuttle to Earth
145.8400 Downlink Shuttle to Earth
144.4900 Uplinkfrequency for European amateurs
144.4700 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
144.4500 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
Source2
I think we need to increase the freq range of the radios we have do this though!
Just a thought, because I wondered if these users of the air/space monitored or were even able to reply on 121.5 aswell as use their own user freqs?
Just in the planning stage at the mo, so your advice would be appreciated.
SS
p.s. Frequencies from t'internet so could be bollix!
p.p.s. Not to be taken seriously!
Saint evil: It would help if you recorded your flying experience in your profile. Then we would have a better perspective on where you come from.
In its absence, I would hazard a guess that you aren't a regular civvy operator (commercial or otherwise).
You would understand where Crab is coming from, appreciate that it sounds commonsense, but then realise that IN REALITY, based on realistic local air traffic pressures, and the fact that it is not MANDATORY (I wonder why), that 121x5 on constant listen out is not derigeur.
It would be ideal to monitor it all the time, but as I have just witnessed today in Snowdonia:
All my transmissions on 121x5 were met by a loud silence.
The national park was swimming in FW and light helo's [5 of them at one time] and they were all listening out on caernarfon and Valley - where the action was.
Now do they deselect one of these to listen to 121x5?
It's all down to risk management and thats what piloting is all about.
If my colleagues at the air ambulance and myself did TDA's today for every job we attended in the parks, the whole area would be an avoid until just 10 mins ago.
Get real, stop being a prat and join the real world.
In its absence, I would hazard a guess that you aren't a regular civvy operator (commercial or otherwise).
You would understand where Crab is coming from, appreciate that it sounds commonsense, but then realise that IN REALITY, based on realistic local air traffic pressures, and the fact that it is not MANDATORY (I wonder why), that 121x5 on constant listen out is not derigeur.
It would be ideal to monitor it all the time, but as I have just witnessed today in Snowdonia:
All my transmissions on 121x5 were met by a loud silence.
The national park was swimming in FW and light helo's [5 of them at one time] and they were all listening out on caernarfon and Valley - where the action was.
Now do they deselect one of these to listen to 121x5?
It's all down to risk management and thats what piloting is all about.
If my colleagues at the air ambulance and myself did TDA's today for every job we attended in the parks, the whole area would be an avoid until just 10 mins ago.
Get real, stop being a prat and join the real world.