Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?
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I agree the PC flight sims are very good, but I'm also absolutely sure a hundred hours in 'IMC' on those won't give you as many as a hundred seconds in real-world bad weather so DON'T GET FALSELY CONFIDENT.
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TC
I'm probably being thick, but what did you mean by "this is assuming it's happened in the UK"?
______________
Good question, IMHO - I'm not qualified to offer any advice.
I suppose it depends upon experience to some extent, but my guess is that a PPL would be doing well if he lasted a minute before losing control of the helicopter. Instrument training under supervision is one thing; suddenly finding yourself IMC is quite another.
Many years ago (before there was any instrument training in the PPL course), through shear unmitigated stupidty on my part, I suddenly found myself in cloud while flying a Harvard. Luckily, I managed to do a 180 to VMC I knew was just behind me and got away with it, but it was a lesson learned. Even though I knew the aircraft well, and a fixed-wing is more stable, suddenly finding myself IMC was the most frightening experience I've ever had, or ever want, in an aircraft. I've done some instrument flying in fixed-wings since (under supervision) but I still don't think I'd get away with such stupidity in a helicopter.
"It's clear the other side of the ridge, we should be able to get through. Let's give it a try." Seemed like a reasonable suggestion at the time. It was clear the other side - as my friend, a much more experienced pilot who did get through, later confirmed. I was just relieved I was alive to do what I should have done in the first place - leave the Harvard at Redhill, catch a train home and worry about collecting the aircraft later.
I'm probably being thick, but what did you mean by "this is assuming it's happened in the UK"?
______________
Good question, IMHO - I'm not qualified to offer any advice.
I suppose it depends upon experience to some extent, but my guess is that a PPL would be doing well if he lasted a minute before losing control of the helicopter. Instrument training under supervision is one thing; suddenly finding yourself IMC is quite another.
Many years ago (before there was any instrument training in the PPL course), through shear unmitigated stupidty on my part, I suddenly found myself in cloud while flying a Harvard. Luckily, I managed to do a 180 to VMC I knew was just behind me and got away with it, but it was a lesson learned. Even though I knew the aircraft well, and a fixed-wing is more stable, suddenly finding myself IMC was the most frightening experience I've ever had, or ever want, in an aircraft. I've done some instrument flying in fixed-wings since (under supervision) but I still don't think I'd get away with such stupidity in a helicopter.
"It's clear the other side of the ridge, we should be able to get through. Let's give it a try." Seemed like a reasonable suggestion at the time. It was clear the other side - as my friend, a much more experienced pilot who did get through, later confirmed. I was just relieved I was alive to do what I should have done in the first place - leave the Harvard at Redhill, catch a train home and worry about collecting the aircraft later.
Maybe being a bad pilot can save your life - I went on a job to a report of a crashed FW in the hills N of Swansea and the wx on scene was poor - we hover taxied up a hillside in cloud, homing onto the 121.5 beacon that had been activated. Suddenly, through the murk we saw 3 guys standing by the edge of a treeline waving. Thinking that they might have seen something we landed and sent the winchman to chat to them. It transpired that it was the pilot and pax - he had gone inadvertant and tried a 180 but washed off all the speed in the turn and stalled the aircraft. Fortunately for them, the stall ocurred at about 50' above the trees and the aircraft parked itself gently nose down so they all got out alive. If he had been instrument trained, he might have kept 90 kts on in the turn and wiped them all out on the hillside.
I guess the moral is that if you are going to fly into the ground then do it slowly.
I guess the moral is that if you are going to fly into the ground then do it slowly.
IMC
Something to think about with altitudes if you are going to climb, (only food for thought during flight planning)
What are the cloud tops, you may break out
Freezing level (seasonal)
Not sure how this works outside US but
Min Safe altitude within 25 nm of an airport
If you have to go above 3000 in the clouds build in a buffer for those guys that are on an IFR plan, plan to go to 3500 or 4500 for example, common VFR altitudes that someone on an IFR plan wont be at.
Dont climb into a thunderstorm
Make your instruments read correct.
Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying then in the air wishing you stayed on the ground.
Dont fly VFR in IMC common tendency is to slow down by reducing power, accept that you IMC and dont compound the problem by yanking in power and create an unusual attitude.
What are the cloud tops, you may break out
Freezing level (seasonal)
Not sure how this works outside US but
Min Safe altitude within 25 nm of an airport
If you have to go above 3000 in the clouds build in a buffer for those guys that are on an IFR plan, plan to go to 3500 or 4500 for example, common VFR altitudes that someone on an IFR plan wont be at.
Dont climb into a thunderstorm
Make your instruments read correct.
Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying then in the air wishing you stayed on the ground.
Dont fly VFR in IMC common tendency is to slow down by reducing power, accept that you IMC and dont compound the problem by yanking in power and create an unusual attitude.
FL: what I meant by 'flying in the UK' was that my advice was based on the type of topography we have on this island. That is to say on the whole it can be generally hilly, not mountainous, just hilly. Unless you are well east and south, the chances are there are some cumulo granite around.
In the US, it would all depend on which state you were flying in when you went IMC, I suppose - can't comment, except to say, you could fly for miles over the plains and not see a mole hill.
We also have the sea as an option, but thats another story!
To rotorspeed - its all academic, isn't it. I think we're more or less all agreed, your life is being counted in seconds once a PPL non IMC trained pilot goes into cloud. I wouldnt go down though unless I felt almost certain the c/b was relatively high above the terrain.
Scud running is the next worse thing to going inadvertent IMC, too! Clowns and dick***ds go scud running on a cloudy day.
Havoc - read the question will you - what on earth are you on about now???
In the US, it would all depend on which state you were flying in when you went IMC, I suppose - can't comment, except to say, you could fly for miles over the plains and not see a mole hill.
We also have the sea as an option, but thats another story!
To rotorspeed - its all academic, isn't it. I think we're more or less all agreed, your life is being counted in seconds once a PPL non IMC trained pilot goes into cloud. I wouldnt go down though unless I felt almost certain the c/b was relatively high above the terrain.
Scud running is the next worse thing to going inadvertent IMC, too! Clowns and dick***ds go scud running on a cloudy day.
Havoc - read the question will you - what on earth are you on about now???
cs, assuming you are a vmc pilot with no imc training, the first respondent to your question (Shytorque),gave you about the best advice you could follow. Even so there would be a significant chance you would die.
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If he had been instrument trained, he might have kept 90 kts on in the turn and wiped them all out on the hillside.
An instrument trained pilot (hopefully flying a fully instrument equpped machine of course!) would have climbed to a safe height (minimum sector altitude or whatever). Maintaining 90 kts would then have been the safest option.......
Shytorque has probably explained the best option for a non IF trained pilot inadvertently enterring IMC. Get back to basics - wings level, ball in the middle etc. If you are then able to manage a gentle turn under such conditions without getting your head in a spin, or the aircraft for that matter, turn towards the lowest ground in the area before descending.
Shytorque's last suggestion says it all -
8) Next time plan your flight so you KNOW your terrain and turn back a lot earlier before you get yourself killed.
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Flyer 43
Unfortunately there are some pilots who would think that they are somehow bullet-proof because they hold the rating. If going inadvertent IMC they have a much better chance of controlling the aircraft solely on instruments but what about the obstacles nearby?
If you are flying visually, then the IFR LSALT is not at the forefront of your mind. You may plan a quasi "escape plan" but unless you know exactly where the inadvertent IMC is going to occur, there is alot of hit and miss.
Having an instrument rating does not guarantee anything. And as I heard on a TV commercial once - "I should know, I have one".
an instrument trained pilot wouldn't normally have placed himself in such a position in the first place.
If you are flying visually, then the IFR LSALT is not at the forefront of your mind. You may plan a quasi "escape plan" but unless you know exactly where the inadvertent IMC is going to occur, there is alot of hit and miss.
Having an instrument rating does not guarantee anything. And as I heard on a TV commercial once - "I should know, I have one".
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Oogle
Point taken, but what I was trying to suggest is that an IF rated pilot would normally plan the flight taking terrain into account. He may very well start the flight off VMC, but if he entered IMC inadvertently or otherwise he would revert to the original plan and amend his height and heading accordingly.
Point taken, but what I was trying to suggest is that an IF rated pilot would normally plan the flight taking terrain into account. He may very well start the flight off VMC, but if he entered IMC inadvertently or otherwise he would revert to the original plan and amend his height and heading accordingly.
I didn't say instrument rated - just trained which is the same sort of PPL level that we have talked about earlier in the thread. I would expect an IR pilot to do as flyer43 said and plan the trip better. This guy was a PPL 'sunday flyer' who was just very lucky to mess up and live to tell the tale.
Whilst I deplore scud running like TC, I also have some sympathy with those who have to pay for their flying and only have limited opportunities to get airborne - they are generally more likely to 'explore' the met forecast in the hope it is better than expected. Sadly these are the same guys who often end up as statistics.
Whilst I deplore scud running like TC, I also have some sympathy with those who have to pay for their flying and only have limited opportunities to get airborne - they are generally more likely to 'explore' the met forecast in the hope it is better than expected. Sadly these are the same guys who often end up as statistics.
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Whilst I deplore scud running like TC, I also have some sympathy with those who have to pay for their flying and only have limited opportunities to get airborne - they are generally more likely to 'explore' the met forecast in the hope it is better than expected. Sadly these are the same guys who often end up as statistics.
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Choppersquad
I'am afraid there is no simple answer, as many of us I've been there several times, and several of the suggested approaches were used depending of the circumstances. But one thing is for shure, unless you are trained for it STAY OUT.
It all depends on your skill and the circumstances, but one thing is for shure, you don't want to be in there unprepared : not only heli-attitude wise, but the whole situational awareness. Even manipulating a GPS in IMC/Single pilot is very very difficult, especially in a light heli.
At 800' I would first try to descend. Normally you will not enter cloud just with one bang, but just see it very late, so look back away from it to find a last visible spot and lock on to that, so probably meaning some turning back and landing, but still essentailly in VMC.
In mountainous area's you probably will want to climb out, but you will need to know the height of the cloud and the mountains.
Once in the cloud you will have no time to do some botlang reading.... Flying over the cloud requires prior meteo knowledge, you don't want to get stuck at 5000' in the cloud or with a solid deck below you, unless you are IFR rated. Even when trained, without auto-pilot it is very demanding to fly, so you will spend incredible mental energy and last not very long.
The last years two full IFR Agusta 109E's crashed of people I know, in the fog with high time CPL's at the commands, that should make it clear that you don't want to be there. Set your personal attitude to avoidance.
Delta3
It all depends on your skill and the circumstances, but one thing is for shure, you don't want to be in there unprepared : not only heli-attitude wise, but the whole situational awareness. Even manipulating a GPS in IMC/Single pilot is very very difficult, especially in a light heli.
At 800' I would first try to descend. Normally you will not enter cloud just with one bang, but just see it very late, so look back away from it to find a last visible spot and lock on to that, so probably meaning some turning back and landing, but still essentailly in VMC.
In mountainous area's you probably will want to climb out, but you will need to know the height of the cloud and the mountains.
Once in the cloud you will have no time to do some botlang reading.... Flying over the cloud requires prior meteo knowledge, you don't want to get stuck at 5000' in the cloud or with a solid deck below you, unless you are IFR rated. Even when trained, without auto-pilot it is very demanding to fly, so you will spend incredible mental energy and last not very long.
The last years two full IFR Agusta 109E's crashed of people I know, in the fog with high time CPL's at the commands, that should make it clear that you don't want to be there. Set your personal attitude to avoidance.
Delta3
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Sadly, as a number of posters have said, even having some instrument training is no guarantee of surviving an unplanned entry into cloud. I had a former student who I had 'chopped' from a sponsored CPL course. He continued his training at another school, paying for the course himself. By the time he'd finished he'd done quite a bit more than the minimum 10 instrument hours required for his CPL. A couple of years later when I was in a single-pilot IFR equipped Twin Squirrel I was shut down at an airfield in southeast England because the weather was too bad and I was amazed to hear a 206 flying. He obviousl;y suddenly spotted my helicopter and landed - it was my former student. I asked him what on earth he was trying to do and he (rather sheepishly) explained that he was trying to press on back to Biggin Hill because he was being paid by the hour and he had a lot of finacial pressure to repay the debts he'd run up from paying to finish his training. Not too many weeks later I heard the incredibly sad news that he'd departed Biggin Hill in marginal weather, then decided to turn back after going IMC and crashed into trees on the North Downs. He was a friend as well as a former student and to hear the awful news of the needless loss of his life was extremely harrowing.
So please CS, for the sake of those that care for you, if not yourself, try not to need any of the advice given to you hear except - do everything you can to stay out of cloud if you're not qualified and equipped to do so.
So please CS, for the sake of those that care for you, if not yourself, try not to need any of the advice given to you hear except - do everything you can to stay out of cloud if you're not qualified and equipped to do so.
IMC
Sorry Thomas for the vague post,
The question was, What would you do finding yourself in the clouds at 800 feet over unfamilar territory.
The point of my post was to add some thought for consideration before you leave the flight planning table. Of course the best option is not to end up in the clouds in the first place.
Unfortunately if you find yourself IMC and unprepared, hopefully you are lucky. The points posted give you a something to work with.
Been Inadvertant IMC once in 20 years of flying, Honduras flying a night Dustoff mission (UH-1), during their burning season. Flew the plan we had and got home ok despite crude ATC and some nervous flight docs on board.
The question was, What would you do finding yourself in the clouds at 800 feet over unfamilar territory.
The point of my post was to add some thought for consideration before you leave the flight planning table. Of course the best option is not to end up in the clouds in the first place.
Unfortunately if you find yourself IMC and unprepared, hopefully you are lucky. The points posted give you a something to work with.
Been Inadvertant IMC once in 20 years of flying, Honduras flying a night Dustoff mission (UH-1), during their burning season. Flew the plan we had and got home ok despite crude ATC and some nervous flight docs on board.
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As a small addition to this thread I would like to say that I have over the years flown in excess of twenty five different R22 and R44 ships. A large number of these had an AI that would fall all over and that most of them would do it fairly quickly after erecting while still on the pad.
One maintanance guy said it was due to all the EOL's carried out in them in the training role and the general banging and bouncing of the airframe by students landing. Not sure if this is true but had to agree tha ships we did the majority of EOL's in did have the worst AI's.
The point being that when you are talking about the bottom end of the instrument equipment market ie. that fitted to an R22 compared to IFR S76 and its subsequent maintanance or lack off then it may well be that you can not believe your instruments.
Stay out of the cloud is the only sure way to gaurantee coming home.
One maintanance guy said it was due to all the EOL's carried out in them in the training role and the general banging and bouncing of the airframe by students landing. Not sure if this is true but had to agree tha ships we did the majority of EOL's in did have the worst AI's.
The point being that when you are talking about the bottom end of the instrument equipment market ie. that fitted to an R22 compared to IFR S76 and its subsequent maintanance or lack off then it may well be that you can not believe your instruments.
Stay out of the cloud is the only sure way to gaurantee coming home.
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You can't always guarantee what's over the hill. If you're confident of your abilities and are preprared to fly just below the cloud base to reduce ground noise nuisance, then this is acceptable as far as I am concerned. I would never take any risk in any flying machine which could endanger the lives of myself and pax. This is what I meant by scud running. Not dodging through the clouds at 200' agl as i've seen many times first hand. You can always land a chopper, anywhere and at any time. I have done this before in the name of safety and will do it again without hesitation.
Soggyboxers; well that confirms my guess as to who you are!
I was flying on that day and well remember the conditions. I also remember seeing, on the TV news that evening, the face of the senior policeman who was in the area doing dog training at the time, and who was the first on the scene; he was pale and very shocked (and that's a senior policeman who will have seen God knows what in the past.)
I won't describe what actually happened, but if anyone is in any doubt as to the true horror of the consequences of this type of accident, read the AAIB report. Very sad indeed (and the example I used on a previous thread about the mistaken belief that throwing money and hours at going solo is not necessarily the best option when training).
There are many adages in aviation, often true and based on hard won experience. A couple that might be pertinent in this discussion are:
"The superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid putting himself in a situation where he has to use his superior flying skills", and..
"It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground!"
I was flying on that day and well remember the conditions. I also remember seeing, on the TV news that evening, the face of the senior policeman who was in the area doing dog training at the time, and who was the first on the scene; he was pale and very shocked (and that's a senior policeman who will have seen God knows what in the past.)
I won't describe what actually happened, but if anyone is in any doubt as to the true horror of the consequences of this type of accident, read the AAIB report. Very sad indeed (and the example I used on a previous thread about the mistaken belief that throwing money and hours at going solo is not necessarily the best option when training).
There are many adages in aviation, often true and based on hard won experience. A couple that might be pertinent in this discussion are:
"The superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid putting himself in a situation where he has to use his superior flying skills", and..
"It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground!"
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This is a question with a 1000 answers . . . . . . .
It depends on
What is the terrain like? imagine going IMC around here where the lowest elevation to get out of the area is about 10,500 FT and there are rapidly rising mountains up to 18,000, and when people usually go inadvertent IMC its near the mountains where there are powerline crossings as high as 1000 feet. If you get into IMC in the flat part of Texas, well its much easier.
What kind of IMC you are talking about? if its low clouds only not a big problem, but if it's a thunderstorm, big problem, you cannot continue toward a thunderstorm. Will you encounter icing?
What aircraft you are flying? if you are in well equipped powerful helicopter that you can rapidly climb in, it helps, if you are in piston or a in a heavy JetRanger, the situation changes considerably.
How much fuel do you have? A PAR Approach can take forever, so do vectoring. So think about that before calling ATC.
What kind of ATC services are available? If you are in country such as in the US in where there is Radar Service everywhere, great, but if you are in Mexico where over 90 percent of the country you cannot even contact ATC below 5000 feet, there are only 40 airports with ATC, and about 10 with Radar for a country 8 times larger than the UK. Well its different.
Everytime I fly in conditions were I could encounter IMC I always have charts with me, know what is ahead of me, and have an idea of what the weather is like is ahead of me, and always know what I will do be it a 180, climb, descend, BEFORE I go into the clouds. That is if I am flying a good, powerful, equipped helicopter, if I don't have any of the above, well I will just not risk it.
What is the terrain like? imagine going IMC around here where the lowest elevation to get out of the area is about 10,500 FT and there are rapidly rising mountains up to 18,000, and when people usually go inadvertent IMC its near the mountains where there are powerline crossings as high as 1000 feet. If you get into IMC in the flat part of Texas, well its much easier.
What kind of IMC you are talking about? if its low clouds only not a big problem, but if it's a thunderstorm, big problem, you cannot continue toward a thunderstorm. Will you encounter icing?
What aircraft you are flying? if you are in well equipped powerful helicopter that you can rapidly climb in, it helps, if you are in piston or a in a heavy JetRanger, the situation changes considerably.
How much fuel do you have? A PAR Approach can take forever, so do vectoring. So think about that before calling ATC.
What kind of ATC services are available? If you are in country such as in the US in where there is Radar Service everywhere, great, but if you are in Mexico where over 90 percent of the country you cannot even contact ATC below 5000 feet, there are only 40 airports with ATC, and about 10 with Radar for a country 8 times larger than the UK. Well its different.
Everytime I fly in conditions were I could encounter IMC I always have charts with me, know what is ahead of me, and have an idea of what the weather is like is ahead of me, and always know what I will do be it a 180, climb, descend, BEFORE I go into the clouds. That is if I am flying a good, powerful, equipped helicopter, if I don't have any of the above, well I will just not risk it.
Squirrel,
It was this one: AAIB Report 5/1990, G-SHBB (quoted in the link you give) that I/SB was referring to, but the one you quote is very similar. Terrible
It was this one: AAIB Report 5/1990, G-SHBB (quoted in the link you give) that I/SB was referring to, but the one you quote is very similar. Terrible