Training, hours building and first job prospects in America
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From this comment, I guess there are some strong feelings about this company.
I posted the same question on another forum and received no responses yet, but it has been a couple of days so I'm a little surprised.
I have searched both forums and tried googling but haven't found any info other than the company website itself (which is very ugly to say the least).
If you don't want to post publicly, please feel free to PM me.
I'd appreciate the comments. If this company is bad news I'd like to get recommendations for other heli schools. I just don't want to make a mistake with my $$$.
Thanks again for any comments.
I posted the same question on another forum and received no responses yet, but it has been a couple of days so I'm a little surprised.
I have searched both forums and tried googling but haven't found any info other than the company website itself (which is very ugly to say the least).
If you don't want to post publicly, please feel free to PM me.
I'd appreciate the comments. If this company is bad news I'd like to get recommendations for other heli schools. I just don't want to make a mistake with my $$$.
Thanks again for any comments.
Gatvol
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As to experience with them, I cant help. I do see them getting whacked quite frequently on the just helo forum......www.justhelicopters.com They seem to be expanding and have been around for a few years. As with most schools if they want up front money its usually to pay Overdue Bills.
Pay as you go.
If you have a wife that wants to live in Vegas and enjoy the Casinos you have big trouble...... many have tried and most are broke....
Good Luck
Pay as you go.
If you have a wife that wants to live in Vegas and enjoy the Casinos you have big trouble...... many have tried and most are broke....
Good Luck
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I am going to make a bold post, take it for what you will.
I have never trained there but have come up through the ranks in the last couple of years and am familiar with most trainging operations. I am not a student or adisgurntled employee. I currently fly a 206l and a 500d. These are just some honest observations and opinions. Here is my take.....
I would run away.
1)any school who wants your money up front is a scam. there is nothing you can do if they shut the doors tomorrow and you lose. Dont think this hasnt happened. The stories of this are all too common in this business. Pay as you go. I used to keep a couple of grand on account and pay weekly. Because I did this , I got a small discount but didnt have much to lose, and even when I went a couple of hundered in the red it wasnt a big deal, cause they knew I would go to the bank.
For example: Key bank has disbursement dates when you sign the note. The school has the athority to change these dates with out telling you. SSH is know for this, they capture your cash.... I know of one person who cancelled the rest of the disbursement, when he found out, they were not happy with him.
***borrow as little money as you can**** you do not want to carry debt, you are going to be poor jumping from stupid job to stupid job for the first year or two. Think of this as a 5 year investment before you make good living wage. It may happen quicker, but that is a good number.
Remember these Key loans schools push are adjustable rate, money is cheap right now. This could change fast and all of a sudden it could go up sevarl pionts a quarter and get real expensive.
2) They dont have enough a/c for the amount of students. I know a couple of people there who have been there 5-6 months and still havent gotten their ppl becasue they can never get on the scheudal. 2 a/c for 40 plus students. ( I think they got a third but a student overspeed it after the first week) The owner does seminars, gets people to sign up with key bank, gets all your money up front then you are along for the ride. It should not take you longer than 9 months (tops) , ppl to cfii if you are dedicated, full time.
There was a bunch of students ready to sue in CAl because they signed up and there was no a/c , there might have been one. the same story is heard in AZ lots of student , not enough a/c. They got a couple of a/c in cal but not enought to get 100+ students through in a reasonable amount of time.
The other heart burn I have is the way they charge guys for ground school. You HAVE to attend 3 nights a week for the entire time you are enrolled and it is part of the billing in your package, they bill you. If you dont go to ground school you dont get on the scheudal to fly. As a former cfi/cfii I dont have a problem with strucured ground school, but it is not necessary for everyone. Also from what I have seen it is almost too much ( I know that proably dosent make sense)... As a student you sould make the most of your time and money and learn as much as you can on your own. Most of this stuff is'nt rocket science. Use the time you have with your instructor well, talk to him while you are in the a/c, during the preflights, postflights. You can get a lot of information on the areas you dont understand with out having to pay for it. When I tought, if a guy knew the answer to the questions I moved along and didnt waste his or my time covering it, or his money... ( I knew how much he was paying and felt for him).there comes a time when knowing the tip speed of the r22 t/r is less important than focusing on real world practices that will help you in your carear in the long run. Most of it is common sense stuff..Anyone who makes you pay for excessive training , should throw up a red flag. Ask yourself how come every other flight school isnt doing this. Is this the norm?
Another red flag for me is the owner is new to the business and has grown like an dot.com in the 90's... and from what I see dosent have the background/ track record that some of the other schools have. Never been a professioanl pilot or a true commercial pilot.
One more factor that limits the availabilty of the a/c is beacue of the accidents thaty have had in the past the cfi's can only fly 5 hours (may be 6) a day...
Never trust anyone who says they will give you a job. Your first couple of jobs will be pure luck. Yes , schools hire there grads when they have opening, but if you have 100 students how many CFI's will they need. Most CFI's stay for 12-16 months. You will get a job becasue some school somewher had a guy bail for the canyon or the gulf. They are scrambling because they have students waiting to fly and are losing revenue. You must be able to pack it all up into a couple fo rubbermaid bins , drive accross the country and work for peanuts... this is the life path you have chosen for the next coupke of years. Typical phone interview question : can you be here tomorrow?
Dont expect to work where you trian. Pick a place you would like to live , based on potential for that first job, if it works out cool! If nto be prepared to bolt for the first thing that comes up.
Make up your own EDUCATED decision, talk to the students at the school, see how fast they are progressing, how much it is really costing them. How many student have ended up working there?Then Talk to the students at some of the other schools like Quantum, Guidance, Vortex, HAI, Palmbeach, Heliflight, Sky, universal, volar about how long it is taking them and what is costing them. due dilligance, it iwll pay off.
All these schools have + and -'s ( you will not find the perfect school) but have been in business for a while and have a fair amount of people auctally out there working in industry.
Pick a place based on quilaty of a/c, happy students, good track record, manitaince/accidents, public opinion, and how long it will take you. Location is important, but other factors should be more important. You goal needs to be : how domI get good instruction and into the work force the fastest....
It shouldnt cost you more than 47k from 0-200hrs cfii, if you shop smart. You MUST take control of your training, your future and profession you have chosen. If you dont you will get swindelled
As a past insturctor with 9 passes (no fail's) this is my ramblings take it for what you will.
rb
I have never trained there but have come up through the ranks in the last couple of years and am familiar with most trainging operations. I am not a student or adisgurntled employee. I currently fly a 206l and a 500d. These are just some honest observations and opinions. Here is my take.....
I would run away.
1)any school who wants your money up front is a scam. there is nothing you can do if they shut the doors tomorrow and you lose. Dont think this hasnt happened. The stories of this are all too common in this business. Pay as you go. I used to keep a couple of grand on account and pay weekly. Because I did this , I got a small discount but didnt have much to lose, and even when I went a couple of hundered in the red it wasnt a big deal, cause they knew I would go to the bank.
For example: Key bank has disbursement dates when you sign the note. The school has the athority to change these dates with out telling you. SSH is know for this, they capture your cash.... I know of one person who cancelled the rest of the disbursement, when he found out, they were not happy with him.
***borrow as little money as you can**** you do not want to carry debt, you are going to be poor jumping from stupid job to stupid job for the first year or two. Think of this as a 5 year investment before you make good living wage. It may happen quicker, but that is a good number.
Remember these Key loans schools push are adjustable rate, money is cheap right now. This could change fast and all of a sudden it could go up sevarl pionts a quarter and get real expensive.
2) They dont have enough a/c for the amount of students. I know a couple of people there who have been there 5-6 months and still havent gotten their ppl becasue they can never get on the scheudal. 2 a/c for 40 plus students. ( I think they got a third but a student overspeed it after the first week) The owner does seminars, gets people to sign up with key bank, gets all your money up front then you are along for the ride. It should not take you longer than 9 months (tops) , ppl to cfii if you are dedicated, full time.
There was a bunch of students ready to sue in CAl because they signed up and there was no a/c , there might have been one. the same story is heard in AZ lots of student , not enough a/c. They got a couple of a/c in cal but not enought to get 100+ students through in a reasonable amount of time.
The other heart burn I have is the way they charge guys for ground school. You HAVE to attend 3 nights a week for the entire time you are enrolled and it is part of the billing in your package, they bill you. If you dont go to ground school you dont get on the scheudal to fly. As a former cfi/cfii I dont have a problem with strucured ground school, but it is not necessary for everyone. Also from what I have seen it is almost too much ( I know that proably dosent make sense)... As a student you sould make the most of your time and money and learn as much as you can on your own. Most of this stuff is'nt rocket science. Use the time you have with your instructor well, talk to him while you are in the a/c, during the preflights, postflights. You can get a lot of information on the areas you dont understand with out having to pay for it. When I tought, if a guy knew the answer to the questions I moved along and didnt waste his or my time covering it, or his money... ( I knew how much he was paying and felt for him).there comes a time when knowing the tip speed of the r22 t/r is less important than focusing on real world practices that will help you in your carear in the long run. Most of it is common sense stuff..Anyone who makes you pay for excessive training , should throw up a red flag. Ask yourself how come every other flight school isnt doing this. Is this the norm?
Another red flag for me is the owner is new to the business and has grown like an dot.com in the 90's... and from what I see dosent have the background/ track record that some of the other schools have. Never been a professioanl pilot or a true commercial pilot.
One more factor that limits the availabilty of the a/c is beacue of the accidents thaty have had in the past the cfi's can only fly 5 hours (may be 6) a day...
Never trust anyone who says they will give you a job. Your first couple of jobs will be pure luck. Yes , schools hire there grads when they have opening, but if you have 100 students how many CFI's will they need. Most CFI's stay for 12-16 months. You will get a job becasue some school somewher had a guy bail for the canyon or the gulf. They are scrambling because they have students waiting to fly and are losing revenue. You must be able to pack it all up into a couple fo rubbermaid bins , drive accross the country and work for peanuts... this is the life path you have chosen for the next coupke of years. Typical phone interview question : can you be here tomorrow?
Dont expect to work where you trian. Pick a place you would like to live , based on potential for that first job, if it works out cool! If nto be prepared to bolt for the first thing that comes up.
Make up your own EDUCATED decision, talk to the students at the school, see how fast they are progressing, how much it is really costing them. How many student have ended up working there?Then Talk to the students at some of the other schools like Quantum, Guidance, Vortex, HAI, Palmbeach, Heliflight, Sky, universal, volar about how long it is taking them and what is costing them. due dilligance, it iwll pay off.
All these schools have + and -'s ( you will not find the perfect school) but have been in business for a while and have a fair amount of people auctally out there working in industry.
Pick a place based on quilaty of a/c, happy students, good track record, manitaince/accidents, public opinion, and how long it will take you. Location is important, but other factors should be more important. You goal needs to be : how domI get good instruction and into the work force the fastest....
It shouldnt cost you more than 47k from 0-200hrs cfii, if you shop smart. You MUST take control of your training, your future and profession you have chosen. If you dont you will get swindelled
As a past insturctor with 9 passes (no fail's) this is my ramblings take it for what you will.
rb
Fly fixed wing...then add on helicopter license is my suggestion....or just do the fixed wing and chuck the helicopter bit.
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SASLESS has good advice in theory , the problemwith doing a f/w then a H addon, is you wont get a job. 99% of the first jobs you will get are in the R22, and due to insurance that these operators get and the sfar (req 200 hrs helicopter, plus make and model), you will never qualify.
I would stay away from traning in the H300 . the R22-300 debate is a whole other can of worms that I care not to debate. Make your won mind up about where the job is going to be. If you weigh more than 200 youll have to train in the 300. And dont believe a operator if he tells you youll have no problem getting an CFI job in a r22 at 200 Plus pounds... he is full of crap. espically out west where you are talking where it is high and hot...
or take SASless better advice and go starch wing..
RB
Hey I am leaving the county next week so I guess I can get a little more rowdy in my posts!
I would stay away from traning in the H300 . the R22-300 debate is a whole other can of worms that I care not to debate. Make your won mind up about where the job is going to be. If you weigh more than 200 youll have to train in the 300. And dont believe a operator if he tells you youll have no problem getting an CFI job in a r22 at 200 Plus pounds... he is full of crap. espically out west where you are talking where it is high and hot...
or take SASless better advice and go starch wing..
RB
Hey I am leaving the county next week so I guess I can get a little more rowdy in my posts!
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RotorBoy- Awesome post. Thanks for taking the time.
I am posting to challange what SASless says. I tend to disagree. I considered that myself and a good friend of mine that has over 8000 hrs RW said something that made a lot of sense to me. He said, "if you want to fly helicopters, learn in a helicopter, it will make your instinctive reactions to an emergency situation that much more sharp." Sure it's more expensive but...we all know that a split second decision can be the difference between life and death.
Just IMHO
Fly Safe...
P.S. I recommend HAI personally.
I am posting to challange what SASless says. I tend to disagree. I considered that myself and a good friend of mine that has over 8000 hrs RW said something that made a lot of sense to me. He said, "if you want to fly helicopters, learn in a helicopter, it will make your instinctive reactions to an emergency situation that much more sharp." Sure it's more expensive but...we all know that a split second decision can be the difference between life and death.
Just IMHO
Fly Safe...
P.S. I recommend HAI personally.
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Thank you all for the helpful information. An extra thanks to you rotorboy for your lengthy and thorough post.
I think I'll probably steer clear of SSH but I'm not sure if I can steer clear of getting my heli licenses altogether. I've always been fascinated by aviation and I would love fixed wing too, but I just have a fixation with learning to fly heli. Maybe as a career move the fixed wing would be a better option and then just do heli for fun later on. I dunno... it's a hard decision, especially with $35k+ on the line.
Thanks again.
I think I'll probably steer clear of SSH but I'm not sure if I can steer clear of getting my heli licenses altogether. I've always been fascinated by aviation and I would love fixed wing too, but I just have a fixation with learning to fly heli. Maybe as a career move the fixed wing would be a better option and then just do heli for fun later on. I dunno... it's a hard decision, especially with $35k+ on the line.
Thanks again.
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Helicopter High in MD
Was wondering if anybody has anything good or bad to say bout a Heli school i'm looking at going to, Helicopter High www.helicopterhigh.com ?? Its near Baltimore, MD. Or point tword any threads with comments?
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Just a thought,
(Not that I've heard anything bad about that school)
Advanced Helicopter Concepts in Frederick is a 1 hr drive west of Baltimore, but they practice at the field instead of Helicopter High having to fly out to a practice area (with your money being spent on the way out) And AHC is a little (about $5/hr) cheaper also...
Over 200 hours, that'll equal about $1000.... something to think about!
(disclaimer: I don't work for, or have any relationship with either school, but I used to work at FDK at another business on the airport)
(Not that I've heard anything bad about that school)
Advanced Helicopter Concepts in Frederick is a 1 hr drive west of Baltimore, but they practice at the field instead of Helicopter High having to fly out to a practice area (with your money being spent on the way out) And AHC is a little (about $5/hr) cheaper also...
Over 200 hours, that'll equal about $1000.... something to think about!
(disclaimer: I don't work for, or have any relationship with either school, but I used to work at FDK at another business on the airport)
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I did my PPL(H) with Advanced out of Frederick in 2002. Good instructors. Excellent maintenance on the aircraft. Training areas (confined area, etc) are only a few miles out. Most training is done right there on the field (they have large grassy area not spoiled by fixed wing).
That said, there are several schools closer to Buffalo than coming all the way to Baltimore. The only thing good about Baltimore is the Inner Harbor... the rest of the city is a total $hit hole (I live between DC and Baltimore). Also, the ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) around the whole area isn't a major problem, but it's definately inconvenient... you won't be able to change any flight plans enroute and you can't call for a new one over the radio.
You have to shut down, find a telephone, call into FSS (sometimes waiting over 30 minutes if it's REALLY busy), and then file your flight plan! Some airports have shortened procedures, but I believe Martin State (where Helicopter High flies) is well inside the ADIZ.
That said, there are several schools closer to Buffalo than coming all the way to Baltimore. The only thing good about Baltimore is the Inner Harbor... the rest of the city is a total $hit hole (I live between DC and Baltimore). Also, the ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) around the whole area isn't a major problem, but it's definately inconvenient... you won't be able to change any flight plans enroute and you can't call for a new one over the radio.
You have to shut down, find a telephone, call into FSS (sometimes waiting over 30 minutes if it's REALLY busy), and then file your flight plan! Some airports have shortened procedures, but I believe Martin State (where Helicopter High flies) is well inside the ADIZ.
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I plan to move from Buffalo to an area north of Baltimore, no just for school. It would be alittle more convenient to goto Heli High, but I guess i should find more out about the (Air Defense Identification Zone). Something i never heard of....thanx for heads up. I will look into Advanced too.
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cmsrally
Dutch Country Helicopters at Lancaster is worth checking out. From memory, it's about an hour or so north-east of Baltimore - less if you're going to be living to the north.
I've only flown there once but I liked what I saw and will definitely go back next time I'm in Philadelphia. Well-maintained helicopters (3) and a good instruction and you can learn to fly helicopters in a Bell 47 which IMHO is a big plus.
They charge only $220 pr/hr including instructor which compares well with R22 training costs. I think it's about $200 if you buy 10 hr blocks.
Dutch Country Helicopters
Dutch Country Helicopters at Lancaster is worth checking out. From memory, it's about an hour or so north-east of Baltimore - less if you're going to be living to the north.
I've only flown there once but I liked what I saw and will definitely go back next time I'm in Philadelphia. Well-maintained helicopters (3) and a good instruction and you can learn to fly helicopters in a Bell 47 which IMHO is a big plus.
They charge only $220 pr/hr including instructor which compares well with R22 training costs. I think it's about $200 if you buy 10 hr blocks.
Dutch Country Helicopters
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 17th Jan 2004 at 20:38.
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Ahhh... you just can help but to love the B47! FL has some good advice there. Also, check out http://www.horizonhelicopters.com/, located JUST inside Deleware (1st exit north of Maryland). If you live north of Baltimore, this will probably be convenient. They have a 206, 206L, and an Enstrom 280FX.
Their rates for the Enstrom are a bit high; however, they make up for it by allowing you to fly 206 missions with them... AT NO COSTS (if you trained with them). They do a lot of mosquito sample collection in the marsh areas, so they allow you to get a little turbine stick time (very nice). Also, they have the ONLY approved Heliport in Delaware. Although they are a few miles from any airport, they have their own practice area.
The B47 listed above will be much less expensive. I recommend going there for your PPL, and then try Horizon for additional ratings. Besides, you need to be a PPL before they let you in the Jet Ranger.
Their rates for the Enstrom are a bit high; however, they make up for it by allowing you to fly 206 missions with them... AT NO COSTS (if you trained with them). They do a lot of mosquito sample collection in the marsh areas, so they allow you to get a little turbine stick time (very nice). Also, they have the ONLY approved Heliport in Delaware. Although they are a few miles from any airport, they have their own practice area.
The B47 listed above will be much less expensive. I recommend going there for your PPL, and then try Horizon for additional ratings. Besides, you need to be a PPL before they let you in the Jet Ranger.
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cool.. thnx for info.
I was planning on going full time to CFi rating, but not sure now. Moving to alittle bigger school with possible instructer job at graduation available, is a option for me too.
Do u know if Horizon or Fredrick or HEli high give instructer job posibilities?? I didn't see anything bout it on sites.
I was planning on going full time to CFi rating, but not sure now. Moving to alittle bigger school with possible instructer job at graduation available, is a option for me too.
Do u know if Horizon or Fredrick or HEli high give instructer job posibilities?? I didn't see anything bout it on sites.
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In my opinion, EVERY school will tell you that you have a "good" chance of getting hired if you train with them. They will probably tell you there are no guarantees, but that they've hired many former students. Now, that is the truth (WHEN they have open positions).
What they won't tell you, is that if it's a small school (2-3 CFI's) and they have a full staff... it aint going to happen. Timing is everything. When one of their CFI's is at 1000+ hours, then you have a better than average chance. That doesn't happen very often with small schools.
Larger schools (Votex, HAI, etc) have a much higher turn over rate, because they have a lot of instructors, a lot of aircraft, and a lot of students. AHC (Frederick) has 2 full-time CFI's... sometimes more in the summer months. I don't know about the others.
What they won't tell you, is that if it's a small school (2-3 CFI's) and they have a full staff... it aint going to happen. Timing is everything. When one of their CFI's is at 1000+ hours, then you have a better than average chance. That doesn't happen very often with small schools.
Larger schools (Votex, HAI, etc) have a much higher turn over rate, because they have a lot of instructors, a lot of aircraft, and a lot of students. AHC (Frederick) has 2 full-time CFI's... sometimes more in the summer months. I don't know about the others.
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hmm it might be a good idea to find out # of hours the CFIs have?
not that they would definatly leave around the 1000 mark, but little better odds.
the size of the school would relate to availability too..probably.
A place like Hillsboro Aviation would probably have a decent job outlook. It would mean moving to Oregon. If thats where the best chances are, i will have to consider that.
OR get PPL at Frederick, Horizon or Dutch County and continue other ratings at another, bigger school with better chance of employment as CFI or other employment provided by that school (ie. photo, flying wires or similar "low time" jobs)
not that they would definatly leave around the 1000 mark, but little better odds.
the size of the school would relate to availability too..probably.
A place like Hillsboro Aviation would probably have a decent job outlook. It would mean moving to Oregon. If thats where the best chances are, i will have to consider that.
OR get PPL at Frederick, Horizon or Dutch County and continue other ratings at another, bigger school with better chance of employment as CFI or other employment provided by that school (ie. photo, flying wires or similar "low time" jobs)
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You may want to send an email to the owner of (Chesapeake Bay Helicopters. I know every now and then they send out ads that state if you agree to go from "0" to CFI with them, and do an interview before you start, they may hire you as a pilot (flight instruction, powerline survey, etc). It's down in the Virginia Beach area (not a bad area, just stay away from the Norfolk naval base area!)