Training, hours building and first job prospects in America

[FIXED N' ROTOR]

Can anyone recommend a good place to do some training and self-fly in R22's in Los Angeles?


Thanks




See also -

Training & Flying in America: Visa Information


Heliport

[nonegov]

I used to work for a School in LA where you will get the best value for money anywhere!!
Group 3 Aviation- 1(818) 994 9376- the web site is www.group3aviation.com
The owner is from the UK and will make sure you get good treatment
It is a fun area to fly in as you can be out of LA in 5 minutes and they have a great practice area in a dried up river bed nearby.
Get in touch if I can help with anything

[floppyjock]

I can recommend Group3 I did my commercial
there last november in 6 days. Peter is the man to talk too.

[kbf1]

I will second that. A close friend of mine was involved with Group 3 up until his erturn to the UK last year. As my wife is from LA I flew out of G3 a few times. Peter Lowry is a decent guy who will look after you, as he does all his students. Van Nuys isn't the best place in the world, but the airfield is good and well serviced for the corporate jets that use it.

[FIXED N' ROTOR]

Thanks guys. I'll pass the information on to a PPL friend who needs it.

[TidelWave]

Want to fly in Tampa....

Does anyone have advise on a good heli school here in the Tampa area?

Also, I am still torn between helicopters a flying with wings? My heart says helicopters but my financial needs (would like to get paid doing this) are swaying me toward planes. Any advise would be welcome.

Thanks,
Steve

[stikker]

My advise would be to ask yourself the question do I live to fly or fly to live, fixed wing offers the prospect of a more lucrative career, rotary wing probably more excitement. Its worth spending the money and getting the best training available, helicopters HAI in CA are good prospect or someone like CSE at oxford for fixed wing. Also aim to get a licence for the area you hope to work in i.e. UK CAA Licence, US FAA and so on . Lots of people get caught have to spent more time and money doing conversations FAA to CAA etc.

[TidelWave]

stikker,

Thanks for the reply. I am sure that I want to stay in the states. Hopefully that will not come into play later. My main setback is funds due to a recent divorce. I need to keep working and my job is here in Tampa. I do not mind putting in another part time job to get my hours up but it seems it will be a slow process unless I can get a loan.

My heart definitly says Helicopters but my brain is telling me to go fixed wing first and later add on Commercial Helicopter.

Either way..it seems I am looking at about 40k and a lot of hours for the two.

[VeeAny]

Try Ten 7 Aviation who operate 2 R22s.

The guy who runs it is called Neil Stannanought his phone number is 727 410 0981.

They are based at St. Petersburg Clearwater Intl. Airport.

I've been over from the UK and done SFAR73 and some SFH with them twice now.

Neil also has accomodation in Clearwater if you need it.

Tell him Gary sent you.

[SLee]

Try SkyOps in St Pete - otherwise you'll have to travel to Crystal River/Brooksville (John Jerkins) or Kissimee Flight School. There are a few more alittle farther out (Ft. Laud, etc...) but these are the closest.

One mans opinion.....
You'll probably find it cheaper to get your PPL in fixed wing first... then chase your rotor ticket. Rotor lessons (300c, R22, etc...) per hour are about twice that of fixed - so to learn the basics of general aviation theory and practices, it's best to do it at the cheaper rate.

[TidelWave]

Gary/SLee,

Thanks, I talked to Neil and he shed some light on some things. I also took a Discovery flight for fixed wing and loved it. However, my first love is still Helicopters. Going the rout of fixed wing to Commercial Pilot looks like about 20K and then I'll need to get some more time to build the hours (hopefully teaching).
I'm looking way down the road but I like to think ahead .

[daay41126]

r22 hire in usa re sfar 200 hours

flyer magazine in the uk there was a letter from a pilot regarding self fly hire of a r22 in the usa. He quotes part 61 in far-certification re: special training & experience requirements which stated among other things he needed 200hrs. Can anybody cast any light upon this. I hold a jar ppl(h) with approximately 80hrs total flight time.I am off to florida near sarasota and was hoping to do some flying

cheers

[Rotorbike]

This is a full copy of SFAR 73. Firstly Awareness Training. Then if you have 10 hours of dual and receive a sign off from an instructor then you can log PIC. Your UK instructor time should count towards this but it would be to the discretion of the CFI or flight school.

SFAR NO. 73--ROBINSON R-22/R-44 SPECIAL TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sections
1. Applicability.
2. Required training, aeronautical experience, endorsements, and flight
review.
3. Expiration date.
1. Applicability. Under the procedures prescribed herein, this SFAR applies to all persons who seek to manipulate the controls or act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter. The requirements stated in this SFAR are in addition to the current requirements of part 61.
2. Required training, aeronautical experience, endorsements, and flight
review.
(a) Awareness Training:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, no person may manipulate the controls of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter after March 27, 1995, for the purpose of flight unless the awareness training specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section is completed and the person's
logbook has been endorsed by a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section.
(2) A person who holds a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating on that person's pilot certificate and meets the experience requirements of paragraph (b)(1) or paragraph (b)(2) of this section may not manipulate the controls of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter for the purpose of
flight after April 26, 1995, unless the awareness training specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section is completed and the person's logbook has been endorsed by a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section.
(3) Awareness training must be conducted by a certified flight instructor who has been endorsed under paragraph (b)(5) of this section and consists of instruction in the following general subject areas:
(i) Energy management;
(ii) Mast bumping;
(iii) Low rotor RPM (blade stall);
(iv) Low G hazards; and
(v) Rotor RPM decay.
(4) A person who can show satisfactory completion of the manufacturer's safety course after January 1, 1994, may obtain an endorsement from an FAA aviation safety inspector in lieu of completing the awareness training required in paragraphs (a)(1) and (a)(2) of this section.
(b) Aeronautical Experience:
(1) No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 unless that person:
(i) Has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-22; or
(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in the Robinson R-22 and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-22. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in an R-22 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. The dual
instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(A) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(B) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(C) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(D) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(2) No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-44 unless that person:
(i) Has had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters, at least 50 flight hours of which were in the Robinson R-44; or
(ii) Has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in the Robinson R-44, and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph
(b)(5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and is proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-44. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in an R-44 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(A) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(B) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(C) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(D) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R-22. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(i) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(ii) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(iii) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(iv) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(4) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-44 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R-44. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days. The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(i) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(ii) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(iii) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(iv) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(5) No certified flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a
flight review in a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 unless that instructor:
(i) Completes the awareness training in paragraph (2)(a) of this SFAR;
(ii) Meets the experience requirements of paragraph 2(b)(1)(i) of this SFAR
for the R-22, or paragraph 2(b)(2)(i) of this SFAR for the R-44;
(iii) Has completed flight training in an R-22, R-44, or both, on the
following abnormal and emergency procedures:
(A) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(B) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(C) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(D) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.
(iv) Been authorized by endorsement from an FAA aviation safety inspector or authorized designated examiner that the instructor has completed the appropriate training, meets the experience requirements, and has
satisfactorily demonstrated an ability to provide instruction on the general subject areas of paragraph 2(a)(3) of this SFAR, and the flight training identified in paragraph 2(b)(5)(iii) of this SFAR.
(c) Flight Review:
(1) No flight review completed to satisfy Sec. 61.56 by an individual after becoming eligible to function as pilot in command in a Robinson R-22 helicopter shall be valid for the operation of R-22 helicopter unless that flight review was taken in an R-22.
(2) No flight review completed to satisfy Sec. 61.56 by individual after becoming eligible to function as pilot in command in a Robinson R-44 helicopter shall be valid for the operation of R-44 helicopter unless that flight review was taken in the R-44.
(3) The flight review will include a review of the awareness training subject areas of paragraph 2(a)(3) of this SFAR and the flight training identified in paragraph 2(b) of this SFAR.
(d) Currency Requirements: No person may act as pilot in command of a Robinson model R-22 or R-44 helicopter carrying passengers unless the pilot in command has met the recency of flight experience requirements of Sec. 61.57 in an R-22 or R-44, as appropriate.
3. Expiration date. This SFAR expires December 31, 1997, unless sooner
superseded or rescinded.

Any Questions????

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Rotorbike ]

[The Nr Fairy]

From the SFAR, as above :

The dual instruction must include at least the following abnormal and emergency procedures flight training:
(i) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures,
(ii) Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor,
(iii) Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and
(iv) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures.

Question - when it says "dual instruction" then lists the manouevres, does that mean you have to demonstrate low G and low RPM in the aircraft ? If so, WHY ?

[Rotorbike]

Low RPM recovery should be shown/demonstrated and the student (PPL holder) demonstrate his understanding by performing it. The reason is so that if the governor fails the pilot can recognize and fly the aircraft afterwards. These are done in flight and hover conditions.

Meaning point 2 and 3 are much the same....

Low G maneuvers should not be shown, the effects and feeling are discussed and a recovery procedure shown.

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Rotorbike ]

[RW-1]

rotorbike is spot on, governor off flight is ok for demonstration of low rpm recovery, and even for just showing you can fly a pattern without it.

But NO ONE demo's actual low G conditions on a teetering head

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: RW-1

I beg to differ with you as it is demonstrated to flight students at the safety course obviously conducted at the factory.. The following is a post that appeared in the 18-degree thread:

In November 1994 with about 100 hours I had the pleasure of attending the Robinson Safely Course. It was during the changeover from doing, to not doing Low G condition examples.
Obviously the following is clouded with everything that has happened since but should fit in nicely with nothing you are trying to prove.
So we flew along the beach at some lovely altitude. Approx. 1500. Instructor on the controls student dumb and watching.
Pull back on the stick; push forward and low G. The same instant you are staring out the front of the cockpit at about 90 degrees to the horizon over to your right. It isn't some slow flight condition it is instant. Bang you are there. Maybe this was pronounced as the tail rotor had been slung into completely clean air.
Now Lu, you know that if you have the pleasure of putting in left cyclic to correct the attitude, game over. A tad of left is OK as Tim Tucker has mentioned but by far the most important thing is the aft pull. By tad we aren't talking inches we are talking fractions.
This was done twice to me and I can assure you it is the most serious 20 minutes of training I have ever received during both examples I watched. I can assure you that I learnt from watching the horizon, the aircraft and the cyclic movements.
As a side note after entry to a low G condition and subsequent recovery we weren't facing in the same direction. We were now facing the opposite direction.
So here is the valuable lesson for the day. Should you ever have the misfortune to enter a low G situation in a Robinson helicopter the aft cyclic is the most important to regain control of the rotor disc the subsequent left cyclic will correct for roll and everything else just doesn't matter.
I can't see where 18 degrees makes a whole heap of a difference here. If you ever learnt to fly and then subsequently had the misfortune to witness then you won't ever forget. To those that haven't you sure haven't missed anything.

[Kyrilian]

Lu,
Note the date. Actual low-g maneuvers haven't been a part of training for some time, though they were in the past.

[Rotorbike]

SFAR 73 was brought in during March 95 and you were given one month grace to comply with the 200 hours/50 hours in type instructor requirement. All the rest of SFAR 73 was brought in with immediate effect.

Nothing illegal about Low G inflight manoevers before that date.

If my memory serves me correct.

[chips_with_everything]

Does anyone have any statistics to show how effective these measures have been??

In particular LOC and non-LOC fatals per 100,000 hours, so that they might be compared to the stats given in the NTSB's 1996 Special Investigation Report.

I have a suspicion that the Robinson figures might be comparable with other models these days.

Please no words or opinions from Lu, I only want numbers. True ones.

Thank you.