MD600
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia PA
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What I find absolutely fascinating is that someone who appears to be outside the certification or manufacturer's flight test business has done such a thorough job of analyzing some of the failure modes of the FADEC.
Not just well done, but three cheers for a superb job.
Why are these failures modes (which are probably common to the Bell 407 as they share many of the same components in the engine and FADEC) not more widely known???
(I can tell you from doing the certification flight testing on the Bell 407 that we didn't know many of them....)
Not just well done, but three cheers for a superb job.
Why are these failures modes (which are probably common to the Bell 407 as they share many of the same components in the engine and FADEC) not more widely known???
(I can tell you from doing the certification flight testing on the Bell 407 that we didn't know many of them....)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Denver, CO and the GOM
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When you have 6 pax onboard with enough fuel to go anywhere,are you still within MTOW????From what I can remember unless atleast 2 of the pax are kids, it's not possible
Join Date: Mar 2002
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The factory must have used one with only 3 blades then to make it lighter, as I can guarantee you the one i use to fly did not have that much useful load.
And thanx john for pointing out that you need a pilot in the 600 before she flies
And thanx john for pointing out that you need a pilot in the 600 before she flies
Join Date: May 2001
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Dynamic Component
we are talking about the md600 here are you getting confused its a turbine heli with up to 8 seats notar ect
if you fly one with so little power you want to let a engineer look at it
i have flown 8 different 600s none with that little ammount of power i am not a very technical person but the aircraft does not seem out of c/g at any time
head turner
as far as i know a pilot has only one way of checking c/g and that is by using the data in the poh yesterday i asked a cfi to recalculate my c/g calcs as i thought i must be wrong he said i was ok , do you know any thing i dont know will you share this with me? so i can advise md to change the poh and for me to fly safely
steve
message to rich lee
is any of this correct or am i going daft
we are talking about the md600 here are you getting confused its a turbine heli with up to 8 seats notar ect
if you fly one with so little power you want to let a engineer look at it
i have flown 8 different 600s none with that little ammount of power i am not a very technical person but the aircraft does not seem out of c/g at any time
head turner
as far as i know a pilot has only one way of checking c/g and that is by using the data in the poh yesterday i asked a cfi to recalculate my c/g calcs as i thought i must be wrong he said i was ok , do you know any thing i dont know will you share this with me? so i can advise md to change the poh and for me to fly safely
steve
message to rich lee
is any of this correct or am i going daft
i am not a very technical person but the aircraft does not seem out of c/g at any time
Are there really pilots out there who are not constantly aware of their C of G and/or crew configuration.
Frightening.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Flingwing,
Is the pilot included?
Is the pilot included?
If I was the pilot (160 lbs), then (again according to MD's tech data for the 600N) you could have six 175-lb passengers.
Good catch - I need to keep my mind on the details!
Join Date: Mar 2002
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md 600 driver,
yeh, I know, i've flown helicopters with 19 seats aswell.There must be something wrong with the 600 that i flew then as I can distinctly remember a ladies voice saying"power,power" with only 4 adult pax onboard.But then again, it might have been my mind saying there is no more power in my arms to pull the collective any higher 
yeh, I know, i've flown helicopters with 19 seats aswell.There must be something wrong with the 600 that i flew then as I can distinctly remember a ladies voice saying"power,power" with only 4 adult pax onboard.But then again, it might have been my mind saying there is no more power in my arms to pull the collective any higher
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Dynamic Component,
If she was saying POWER POWER you are a naughty boy ! This warning should only be given at the 660 TRQ Transient torque limit. ----- However in my experience every MD 600 says power at a different level - the OLD factory demonstrator used to say power at about 540 TRQ( max trq is 600 for 5 mins TO and 530 TRQ continuos), and on the aircraft I regularly fly Ive never heard it !! So maybe your not so bad !! ( The definition of this is , if after she said power the little red lights showed an exceedance on the TRQ gauge LOL)
I have to agree with MD600driver though, if it was saying power with 4 adults and full fuel , either the POwer limit is set incorrectly or they are all VERY large.( or summats up!)
Generally I have found that with Pilot plus 4 PAX you are within MTOW (UNless they are all 110Kg) If you want to fly Pilot + 5 Pax you will need to ditch about 70 Kgs of fuel.
C of G is mainly an issue if 2 people are up front with about 455 Lbs of fuel onboard, you can actually take off within the C of G range with full fuel 788 Lbs and then go out of it as you approach about 400lbs , its to do with fuel usage from the 4 tanks , the fuel c of g curve is like a big S !!! This is cured if you carry about 25 Kg at the aft baggage station, perfect job for the APU.Also if you are flying Pilot plus 3 Pax ( 2 in the Middle row and 1 up front) you need to slide the mid seats to their very aft position (which makes sense as they then get the most leg room ) to kepp it within the C of G position, if there is anyone in the back row C of G is not a problem and the mid seats can go forward to give more legroom.
All in all a very capable and powerful machine, anyone who says it doesnt fly well , either hasnt really flown one or hasnt taken the time to get used to a NOTAR, they are not bad , just different.
I would qualify this by saying they are not ideal for slinging work or slow speed sub 30 knot work ie Police or border patrol OPS!!!!!. But as a VERY smooth aircraft for getting places quickly with a good load capacity.
I have flown an aircraft with and without YSAS and to be honest I prefer it without, as its such a pilots machine and the YSAS takes a bit of that away, but I guess its great for people with sleeping feet!
Regards
Hover Bovver
If she was saying POWER POWER you are a naughty boy ! This warning should only be given at the 660 TRQ Transient torque limit. ----- However in my experience every MD 600 says power at a different level - the OLD factory demonstrator used to say power at about 540 TRQ( max trq is 600 for 5 mins TO and 530 TRQ continuos), and on the aircraft I regularly fly Ive never heard it !! So maybe your not so bad !! ( The definition of this is , if after she said power the little red lights showed an exceedance on the TRQ gauge LOL)
I have to agree with MD600driver though, if it was saying power with 4 adults and full fuel , either the POwer limit is set incorrectly or they are all VERY large.( or summats up!)
Generally I have found that with Pilot plus 4 PAX you are within MTOW (UNless they are all 110Kg) If you want to fly Pilot + 5 Pax you will need to ditch about 70 Kgs of fuel.
C of G is mainly an issue if 2 people are up front with about 455 Lbs of fuel onboard, you can actually take off within the C of G range with full fuel 788 Lbs and then go out of it as you approach about 400lbs , its to do with fuel usage from the 4 tanks , the fuel c of g curve is like a big S !!! This is cured if you carry about 25 Kg at the aft baggage station, perfect job for the APU.Also if you are flying Pilot plus 3 Pax ( 2 in the Middle row and 1 up front) you need to slide the mid seats to their very aft position (which makes sense as they then get the most leg room ) to kepp it within the C of G position, if there is anyone in the back row C of G is not a problem and the mid seats can go forward to give more legroom.
All in all a very capable and powerful machine, anyone who says it doesnt fly well , either hasnt really flown one or hasnt taken the time to get used to a NOTAR, they are not bad , just different.
I would qualify this by saying they are not ideal for slinging work or slow speed sub 30 knot work ie Police or border patrol OPS!!!!!. But as a VERY smooth aircraft for getting places quickly with a good load capacity.
I have flown an aircraft with and without YSAS and to be honest I prefer it without, as its such a pilots machine and the YSAS takes a bit of that away, but I guess its great for people with sleeping feet!
Regards
Hover Bovver
,
Advice on MD600
Guys and Gals
One of my punters is looking to trade up his 500 to a 600 on the basis they are cheap. I have been told by a lot of people they are a pig to fly and should have their certificate of airworthiness withdrawn. Owners / operators I would appreciate your comments on them.
Cheers
One of my punters is looking to trade up his 500 to a 600 on the basis they are cheap. I have been told by a lot of people they are a pig to fly and should have their certificate of airworthiness withdrawn. Owners / operators I would appreciate your comments on them.
Cheers
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i'd steer clear if i were him. i used to work for a guy who has a couple of those things. yes, they are a pig to fly, and if you don't mind the blades falling off then maybe you will like it. we did a lot of repetative lifting with the 600, (530, 500D's also) and they didn't seem to handle it very well.
he had a driver go to L.A to pick up the 600's they unloaded and the explanation the LAPD guy as to why they are getting rid of them included the reasons that they don't lift anything, they have no legs, they are maintenance pigs, and they are "junk". not my words, just what i was told. and now there are the product support issues.
even my boss admitted that one of the only reasons he was actually successful with the 600 was because it looked cool. they do look cool but unless that is the only reason for considering a 600, i'd go for something else, after all there must be areson why they didn't sell very many in the first place.
he had a driver go to L.A to pick up the 600's they unloaded and the explanation the LAPD guy as to why they are getting rid of them included the reasons that they don't lift anything, they have no legs, they are maintenance pigs, and they are "junk". not my words, just what i was told. and now there are the product support issues.
even my boss admitted that one of the only reasons he was actually successful with the 600 was because it looked cool. they do look cool but unless that is the only reason for considering a 600, i'd go for something else, after all there must be areson why they didn't sell very many in the first place.
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Having flown 600 + hours in the MD 600 s, I would argue with anyone who says they are a pig to fly , they are diferent, but I think they are great to fly.
To be honest I cant even be bothered to argue about the reliability, weve only had 3 minor snags in 600 hours, and as to the blades falling off!, them having no legs, and they dont lift anything well ours did just fine ,and we quite often flew with 5 people for 280 miles all within the limits. But hey what do I know.
There is a but, the aircraft does not like slow speed , ie between 10 - 25 knots, so as a film ship or police or observation ops it is not good, for picking up people and flying them VERY smoothly from place to place its great.
Im just sorry weve sold ours.
HB
To be honest I cant even be bothered to argue about the reliability, weve only had 3 minor snags in 600 hours, and as to the blades falling off!, them having no legs, and they dont lift anything well ours did just fine ,and we quite often flew with 5 people for 280 miles all within the limits. But hey what do I know.
There is a but, the aircraft does not like slow speed , ie between 10 - 25 knots, so as a film ship or police or observation ops it is not good, for picking up people and flying them VERY smoothly from place to place its great.
Im just sorry weve sold ours.
HB
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They're not that bad. Infact in calm weather they are quick and fuel efficient. As a two seather you have bags of baggage space as long as the heavy stuff is at the back.
If you are looking to fill the seats with bodies there is a CG problem.
Avoid flying in blustery conditions as the yaw takes a super human brain to sort - somehow I've managed.
Go for a B2 Squirrel - best of the bunch IMHO
If you are looking to fill the seats with bodies there is a CG problem.
Avoid flying in blustery conditions as the yaw takes a super human brain to sort - somehow I've managed.
Go for a B2 Squirrel - best of the bunch IMHO
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Head Turner,
The only c of g problems you will encounter is with 2 people(you require about 20 kgs at the rear seat station to stay inside the envelope( about the weight of an apu) if both are in the front, the more people you get in the back the better,( You really need the exec seats as you can move these backwards in 5 seconds if you are only carrying four and this also keeps the c of g correct and gives the pax mega leg room ) the biggest thing to get your head round is the shifting c of g as fuel burns, but no big deal.
Are we thinking of the same machine, they have bags(about 6 big ones LOL) of baggage space as a four seater, you can remove the rear 2 seats in 2 minutes and use all that space(or just put stuff on top of them), but you must use some form of restraint as the bags are in part of the rear cabin.You can also remove all the seats and use it as a big luggage area ( 4 x 45 gallon drums , plastic ,not steel)
A lot of people say about the yaw, all I can say is that I have flown in very blustery conditions, and never have a problem, but there is a nack of flying them, and the best thing if you are buying one is to do the course at MD in arizona, you will learn a lot about the machine, and see what they can really do
.
The B2 is a good machine , but is nowere near as smooth as the 600, they are also more expensive to maintain.
Regards
HB
The only c of g problems you will encounter is with 2 people(you require about 20 kgs at the rear seat station to stay inside the envelope( about the weight of an apu) if both are in the front, the more people you get in the back the better,( You really need the exec seats as you can move these backwards in 5 seconds if you are only carrying four and this also keeps the c of g correct and gives the pax mega leg room ) the biggest thing to get your head round is the shifting c of g as fuel burns, but no big deal.
Are we thinking of the same machine, they have bags(about 6 big ones LOL) of baggage space as a four seater, you can remove the rear 2 seats in 2 minutes and use all that space(or just put stuff on top of them), but you must use some form of restraint as the bags are in part of the rear cabin.You can also remove all the seats and use it as a big luggage area ( 4 x 45 gallon drums , plastic ,not steel)
A lot of people say about the yaw, all I can say is that I have flown in very blustery conditions, and never have a problem, but there is a nack of flying them, and the best thing if you are buying one is to do the course at MD in arizona, you will learn a lot about the machine, and see what they can really do
.The B2 is a good machine , but is nowere near as smooth as the 600, they are also more expensive to maintain.
Regards
HB
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md600 driver, Its a completely different machine with Ysas, would you not agree.
HB, I agree. they are in no way a maintenance hog.
FP, don't listen to cops advice on any machine. today they hate it, tomorrow they hate something else. Must be to do with the fact that they fly in circles all day long Make up your own mind, and BTW if you think the 500D or F do not handle repetitve lifting very well, then you are doing something very wrong.........and I know of plenty of operators that would disagree.
HB, I agree. they are in no way a maintenance hog.
FP, don't listen to cops advice on any machine. today they hate it, tomorrow they hate something else. Must be to do with the fact that they fly in circles all day long
Make up your own mind, and BTW if you think the 500D or F do not handle repetitve lifting very well, then you are doing something very wrong.........and I know of plenty of operators that would disagree.