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Bell 412

Old 13th May 2003, 22:52
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Bell 412

I am wondering as a general enquiry what the operating cost of a B412 would be approximately just as a pax mover machine per hour. I have heard several wearied and wonderful figures that vary by 400%. They look damn expensive little feller's to run. Roughly what kind of pay load would you have to play with on a 150NM run with a 1hr IFR reserve? Thanks, and nothing to technical please !!
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Old 14th May 2003, 08:44
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c'mon, roll up- roll up, someone out there must know something.

Teacup
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Old 14th May 2003, 12:01
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Bell Helicopter quotes the "direct operating cost" of the B412EP at $750.18USD per flight hour, based on fuel @ $1.50/gal and maintenance labor at $50/hr. For operational purposes you would also have to add indirect operating costs such as insurance, crewing, financing costs, depreciation, facilities etc etc. What did I hear you say, "Ripley's believe it or not??"
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Old 14th May 2003, 21:17
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How many hours do you want to fly per month?

Single Pilot or 2 Pilot ops, day only or day and night, 5 days per week or 7 day per week, EP, HP or SP???

I will work it out for you based on real world costs if you have that information available.

LE
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Old 14th May 2003, 21:37
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TC -

If you're after detailed data, suggest you try Conklin & Decker (www.conklindd.com). Addition of indirect costs takes the hourly rate for the 412 to ~ $900/hr.
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Old 13th Oct 2004, 06:31
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Bell 412

Can anyone help me with B412 rotor blades data?

I'm looking for root&tip chord line, and construction angle of attack difference betwen tip&root.

Thanks for any info!
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Old 13th Oct 2004, 08:44
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This all that I have found, does it help?

From this site ... EngTips

Wing Root Airfoil - Boeing VR-7

Wing Tip Airfoil - Wortmann FX 69-H-080
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Old 13th Oct 2004, 08:52
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I'm amazed that data like that exists. Thanks fot the help, but i would need the actual length of chord line.

I managed sort of get the angle out of some photos. Thanks for the tip on airfoil sprocket. I got 10° difference between root and tip chord line. Can anyone confirm this?

If i got this far, chord line length shouldn't be a problem.

Last edited by Phoinix; 13th Oct 2004 at 09:30.
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Old 29th Oct 2004, 13:23
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Question Bell 412

Scenario: [B] Take off from a oil platform that is at 100' amsl.

Helicopter: Bell 412 SP, 11400 lbs TOW. (2 crew, 10 pax + baggage/freight.)

Weather: Sea level, OAT-32 degrees C, Wind-Light and variable, QNH-1013 Mbar.

On rotation you loose an engine and through your superior handling skills, knife edge reactions, you prevent ditching and after nursing your helicopter, climbing at the guaranteed 150 feet/minute ROC at 65 kts, you eventually reach a safe flight condition and altitude.

Now having to fly back to a onshore alternate for a single engine landing, what would the realistic figures be one can expect for indicated airspeed in kts and fuel consumption in lbs/hr?

Data I have been given to work on is 90 kts and 700lbs/hr single engine at loiter power? Loiter power, then you will never reach your destination and I think 90 kts is pushing it?

Some expert advice will be appreciated please!

(I hope I didn't bring back to many scary nightmares )
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Old 29th Oct 2004, 15:51
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OAT Minus 32C ?
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Old 29th Oct 2004, 16:09
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Hope you mean +32, but if it was me I'd plan on max approx 80kts IAS @ 600lbs/hr.

Hope it helps.
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Old 29th Oct 2004, 17:53
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Sea level, OAT-32 degrees C, Wind-Light and variable, QNH-1013 Mbar. = Sea level, OAT- +32 degrees C, Wind- Light and variable, QNH- 1013 Mbar.

Thanks NEO, what do you base the figure of 600lbs/hr on, experience or from the FM?

I looked again and the 700lbs/hr at loiterpower is a twin engine figure, but it is also the figure stated for single engine operations? RTFM!
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 09:12
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Glad to be of assistance. Unfortunately it's based on experience, over around 50 miles of unlandable/unditchable swamp. I have never found anything in the FM that covers SE fuel consumption adequately, although you can contact BHT directly on their website. Maybe they have some accurate SE cruise fuel figures ?

Cheers.
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 09:25
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Devil

Let me, guess, Warri, PH, Eket area... say no more! Been there done that, mostly on singles... glad not to have had any trouble and lived to move on to the next level of fear and trepidation.
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 10:40
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Recuperator

Tell me the secret please!!!

What magic are you using to get a heavy 412 away from a platform on a ISA +17 nil wind day in the OEI, at the critical point.!!!!

[Assumming you have standard 3B engines?]

My experience would have you upside down after hitting your tail on the edge, or sitting happily on the floats looking smugly at each other.
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 10:55
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OMR,

I agree. I was talking about cruise figures. Getting away from a platform at those weights etc would be a real feat with -3Bs.
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 17:54
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Devil OMR

OMR,

I said
through your superior handling skills, knife edge reactions, you prevent ditching and after nursing your helicopter
All hypothetically speaking off course, to get to the figures for OEI flight fuel consumption and IAS in the cruise as NEO rightly helped with.


You said
My experience would have you upside down after hitting your tail on the edge, or sitting happily on the floats looking smugly at each other.
I assume that you had the latter as your experience, as very few people survive the drop from a hundred foot inverted coming of the rig after hitting their tails on the deck. I have seen the evidence of that happening, and it wasn’t pretty.

Now if you have had the “My experience” part, please share it and make a wiser man out of me and at the same time offer your OEI figures for the cruise flight home as described in the post.

Your handle, OMR, is probably not because you are a bold pilot, but rather a old pilot as I know very few old and bold pilots. Sharing your story and your experience will be highly appreciated and I could very well learn something from it.




The engines that we house are PT6T-3BF engines.

Pretty reliable in the twinpack configuration, I would say.

OMR, NEO, Pretty low on power as you would say.

I agree fully. The nice thing though of the reliability of the remaining engine is that it\'s lack of power will most probably take you to the scene of the accident/ditching...
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Old 30th Oct 2004, 18:10
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Get some of the Aramco pilots to explain their magic....they fly the 412EP's at 11,900 and do not cut weight except for night flying....and it gets rather warm in Saudi....

Their operation (off-shoot of PHI according to most folks in the know) does not consider CAT A performance at all....nor do they use any sort of identifiable CAT A profiles.

As I recall...with some clarity due to the lack of adult malt beverages in that part of the world....they basically used miminal climb and accelerated as quickly as possible to 60 kts....on takeoff from the rig and then considered that CDP of sorts. Lofting off some of the elevated decks there that were all of 25 feet above the briny....that could be an interesting proposition in my view.
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Old 31st Oct 2004, 07:43
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Sorry, I cant highlight an actual event, otherwise I may not be here to report the magic!!

My experience has been around Test Flying the various profiles at various Weights, Temperatures, AMSL and Crew Experience [discipline] levels.

The scenario described by yourself would be nearly impossible to execute successfully, regardless of the competence of the crew. There are many variables to consider in “your” departure, but if all goes wrong at the worse time, then you will not get safely away.

Sassy, as you know those machines are on the N Register.

The mention of the: WAT Chart, OEI Climb, MTOW and 100% Torque is a revelation. Shudder!!!

Remember this is a SP with 3B's, not an EP with DF engines.
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Old 31st Oct 2004, 12:02
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Devil OMR

Thanks for the input, will definately keep it in mind next time they want to load everything and the kitchen zinc in the back! Sometimes I wonder if it is worth it, especially in the Middle East under Sharia law...
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