R22 Corner
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: uk
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Even if RHC does stop the production of the R22, will they not have to continue to produce the spare parts and also keep capacity for all the factory overhauls unless he grants franchises to select maintenance companies around the globe to carry out the factory overhauls?
I guess that Frank has heard of the "CRAN-22" being built in the UK and want's to get out of the light helicopter market while he's ahead
I guess that Frank has heard of the "CRAN-22" being built in the UK and want's to get out of the light helicopter market while he's ahead
Join Date: Mar 2003
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FR is an astute man. That is true. There's a marketting ploy here - can you see it?
Yeh the R22 a great helicopter but if I tell you that the R44 is really a much better machine, better payload, and now that it has hydraulics it's really nice to fly. As a trainer it will be a better trainer than the R22 for sure.
Is it the end of the line for the R22? Well I would suggest that it is, and now more financially sensible for FR to sell R44's than R22's. More dosh in his back pocket.
Come on you guys surely you can see that there's more to be made out of the sale of a R44 than a R22.
Yeh the R22 a great helicopter but if I tell you that the R44 is really a much better machine, better payload, and now that it has hydraulics it's really nice to fly. As a trainer it will be a better trainer than the R22 for sure.
Is it the end of the line for the R22? Well I would suggest that it is, and now more financially sensible for FR to sell R44's than R22's. More dosh in his back pocket.
Come on you guys surely you can see that there's more to be made out of the sale of a R44 than a R22.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
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R22 Overhaul Cost
Can anyone let me know the cost of O/H of time expired R22 Beta (ie after 2200hrs/12 years)? I would be particularly interested in cost in USA and cost in Aust. Also what sort of money would a time expired R22 B (R22 B or R22BII) get if traded in on a new/o/h-reconditioned a/c.
I am trying to work out how much a 2nd hand machine would be worth.
I am trying to work out how much a 2nd hand machine would be worth.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
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How long is a piece of string?
The Robinson Factory have I believe nearly spot on prices for the LifeEx rebuild, but it really will depend on many things, firstly what do you want in the rebuild, and is the A/F good enough.
The value of something that is LifeEx is controlled by the willingness of the person who wishes or wants to buy such a crate, from memory you can find R22's with plenty o life in them from about £40K. you need to look around !
Regards
PeterB
Vfr
The Robinson Factory have I believe nearly spot on prices for the LifeEx rebuild, but it really will depend on many things, firstly what do you want in the rebuild, and is the A/F good enough.
The value of something that is LifeEx is controlled by the willingness of the person who wishes or wants to buy such a crate, from memory you can find R22's with plenty o life in them from about £40K. you need to look around !
Regards
PeterB
Vfr
Join Date: Jan 2003
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having a 14-year-old 1800-hr R22, unoverhauled, worth perhaps $US42,000, I'm close enough to the bottom to feel that $30,000 +- $5000 is a good ballpark sales figure for a runout, the range covering paint/crinkles/bends/dents and the like. And perhaps 5% for the age beyond 12 years, 'though how that makes a difference for a runout ship is a little hard for me to devine.
An owner/A&P/IA who does his own work told me last week the basic rebuild kit alone is $57,000; but then there's enough labor to approximate building your own!
The 12-year life suggested by RHC apparently falls on deaf ears at the FAA (explanations for this are anything but consistently reproducible!), I find that roughly half of the R22 factory-approved service centers I contact don't pay any attention to the 12 year "limit", the other half decline to do any maintenance on my bird and won't sign if off as airworthy without at least a partial rebuild.
But be of good cheer: NEXT week we're all going to get organized . . .
vfrpilotpb: perhaps a RUBBERIZED string in this case . . .
An owner/A&P/IA who does his own work told me last week the basic rebuild kit alone is $57,000; but then there's enough labor to approximate building your own!
The 12-year life suggested by RHC apparently falls on deaf ears at the FAA (explanations for this are anything but consistently reproducible!), I find that roughly half of the R22 factory-approved service centers I contact don't pay any attention to the 12 year "limit", the other half decline to do any maintenance on my bird and won't sign if off as airworthy without at least a partial rebuild.
But be of good cheer: NEXT week we're all going to get organized . . .
vfrpilotpb: perhaps a RUBBERIZED string in this case . . .
You may need to bin it!
Agree with VFRpilotpb. It all depends on the aircraft condition at the time, and sometimes the bill may be so high that overhauling is not an option at all
I used to fly for AVIATUN (tuna spotting), and in most cases the company would bin the R-22s when they reached their 2,000 hours. Yes, I saw aircraft going to the skip with no remorse, but certainly they had made enough money to buy a few new ones!
At that time aircraft were still fully serviceable, but corrosion would start to show in some components, mainly due to the long trips in the Pacific Ocean with no hangar. Only continous washing from the engineer/pilot - twice a day- and loads of oil would keep it going. Nevertheless, once you saw small corrosion signs, you knew that the aircraft life had come to an end.
By the way, in most of the cases, aircraft reached 2,000 hours in less than 2 years.
I used to fly for AVIATUN (tuna spotting), and in most cases the company would bin the R-22s when they reached their 2,000 hours. Yes, I saw aircraft going to the skip with no remorse, but certainly they had made enough money to buy a few new ones!
At that time aircraft were still fully serviceable, but corrosion would start to show in some components, mainly due to the long trips in the Pacific Ocean with no hangar. Only continous washing from the engineer/pilot - twice a day- and loads of oil would keep it going. Nevertheless, once you saw small corrosion signs, you knew that the aircraft life had come to an end.
By the way, in most of the cases, aircraft reached 2,000 hours in less than 2 years.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
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G'day Rjtjrt.
Here's a few rough numbers which may give you something to work with:
- Timex R22, usually around 50 to 60k depending on how well it's equipped with avionics etc.
- Around US$60000 for an o'haul kit, plus add a few more grand to cover freight, gst etc.
- Add about another 12k if it's a 4400 as you will need to replace the tailboom and the upper frame.
- Around 30k for an engine overhaul.
- About 12k for labour
- And probably up to another 20k to cover things such as non destructive testing, repair/replacement of worn parts that are not covered in the kit, screen replacement if required, and painting etc.
These are as I said rough figures and in Aussie dollars unless otherwise stated
Hope it was of some help
Regards
Here's a few rough numbers which may give you something to work with:
- Timex R22, usually around 50 to 60k depending on how well it's equipped with avionics etc.
- Around US$60000 for an o'haul kit, plus add a few more grand to cover freight, gst etc.
- Add about another 12k if it's a 4400 as you will need to replace the tailboom and the upper frame.
- Around 30k for an engine overhaul.
- About 12k for labour
- And probably up to another 20k to cover things such as non destructive testing, repair/replacement of worn parts that are not covered in the kit, screen replacement if required, and painting etc.
These are as I said rough figures and in Aussie dollars unless otherwise stated
Hope it was of some help
Regards
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: australia
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R22 Belts, again
I have noticed lately on R22s that if the identification markings on the back of the belts get scuffed off fairly quickly you usually only get around 200 hours out of them. The next set put on might go 600 hours before stretching out of limits with no change to alignment, no adjusting of the locating rod near the top bearing or any changes at all. It seems to be inconsistencies in the belt manufacture. Does anyone else notice this trend or have any thoughts about it.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: AZ
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We were having a hell of a time with belts on one of our 22s. They were being worn way to quickly. We switch out the clutch actuator and then the results got inconsistant, finally we replaced the upper sheave and all was well after that. Just my experience.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Victoria, Australia
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trailering an R22
G'Day All,
Does anyone have any experience with trailering a robbie r22? Am considering having one made however would appreciate any tips on designs from anyone who has had experience with trailering them.
Thanks in anticipation,
Shorthorn
Does anyone have any experience with trailering a robbie r22? Am considering having one made however would appreciate any tips on designs from anyone who has had experience with trailering them.
Thanks in anticipation,
Shorthorn
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Long and short of it is not to unless you have to.
If you do, then from what I've seen in the game industry in South Africa, you need two axles and pay special attention to the way the blade is secured. If not, they tend to break where they've been held, especially if you go off tar roads.
Putting a fuel tank under the chassis is a nice addition if money and regulations permit (your fuel company will advise on legalities of this). This also keeps the C of G low and gives you options beyond fuel drums on the back of whatever you are towing with.
Try Bassair Aviation in Pretoria, South Africa on +27 12 543 3303 as they have a lot of experience in trailering R22s.
Just make sure what your insurance company has to say. Two machines were lost this year flying off the trailer...
If you do, then from what I've seen in the game industry in South Africa, you need two axles and pay special attention to the way the blade is secured. If not, they tend to break where they've been held, especially if you go off tar roads.
Putting a fuel tank under the chassis is a nice addition if money and regulations permit (your fuel company will advise on legalities of this). This also keeps the C of G low and gives you options beyond fuel drums on the back of whatever you are towing with.
Try Bassair Aviation in Pretoria, South Africa on +27 12 543 3303 as they have a lot of experience in trailering R22s.
Just make sure what your insurance company has to say. Two machines were lost this year flying off the trailer...
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
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If your having a trailer made, then go for Air Suspesion units, definately three axles with big tyres these will soak up sudden jolts and bumps, and generally be far easier on the loaded Heli, but the heli would need to be very tightly fastened down, with some overcentre clatches on the skids so the Heli effectively is at one with the trailer bed, with your blades held in more than one place ( ie not just tied from the ends as normal) a yolk and brace system would need to be fitted that would hold securely the full length of the blades, with careful dsign you would be able to go off road with such a trailer.
Let us all know what you do with piccies if poss
Peter R-B
Vfr
Let us all know what you do with piccies if poss
Peter R-B
Vfr
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Be careful with this one guys. I suggest you get advice from your maintenance outfit.
For lots of heles, including the R22 I believe, the manufacturer says you should remove the tail boom and MR blades before transporting it on a trailer on the road.
If you ever look at how the tail boom on a R22 is secured to the airframe and think about the cyclical loads applied by road transport you will begin to see why.
For lots of heles, including the R22 I believe, the manufacturer says you should remove the tail boom and MR blades before transporting it on a trailer on the road.
If you ever look at how the tail boom on a R22 is secured to the airframe and think about the cyclical loads applied by road transport you will begin to see why.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: W'n. USA--full time RV
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DO NOT fasten tightly! DO support tailboom!
RHC doesn't want us to trailer their helicopters, because they don't want to have to field all the resulting questions. "We designed it to fly, not to be trailered."
But they do say LET THE SKIDS FLEX sidewards, for that is the natural suspension of the helicopter, bolting skids down tight will result in fatigue cracks in gear mount knuckles. So mine is chain-tethered at the 4 corners of skids, to the trailer, free to dance around but not slide off (it never even tries to slide off).
They do say SUPPORT THE TAIL BOOM very carefully or you will get cracks in the upper frame where it attaches. I use a steel gallows, cloth sling, and multiple preloaded bungees (my guess is that the tailboom weighs 50#, the factory doesn't know!!!)
They do say SUPPORT THE MAIN ROTOR BLADES about 5' in from the tips. This is to protect the droop stops AND to minimize flexing/folding of blades. I use 5'-long cuffs supported by flexible cords on a rigid trampoline supported by steel-tube A-frames to the trailer frame.
And they will not reveal even a single instance of a Robinson having been damaged in any way by being trailered. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened; but it suggests trailering is not especially dangerous.
There seem to be many (50?) R22's on trailers on USA highways. Opinions on trailer design run the full gamut, I have yet to discover an engineering analysis for the ideal trailer.
My own, in use 2 years/30,000 miles without incident, is an open single-axle 2000# GW converted snowmobile trailer, intended (by me) for smooth highway travel only. 2-axle trailers are common, usually 7500# GW. RHC and others recommend making sure the trailer is loaded to max weight so the springs will act as softly as possible--I don't know how to do that with two or three axles, for they don't make (or I haven't seen) low-capacity axle-spring combos facilitating loading to max gross weight with only a 1000# helicopter! (Enclosing the trailer would go a long way in that direction.)
I have a flat bed. Training/safety wings fold out flat for TO/Ldg making the trailer 12' wide. After two years of this, I begin to think I would better have had wide 15" high skid-guiding-channels at sides of trailer, so that once you position skids in hover & descend vertically the channels guide the chopper straight down, and you can be more assured that chopping the collective at any lateral lurch wll result in aborting dynamic rollover safely. Other trailers seem to be evenly divided between methods.
How steady are your nerves? Tooling down the highway/track with all those potholes/pseudo-drivers trying to nail you and your helicopter will give you ulcers in short order! AND there's no hard-core engineering data to tell you you're not accumulating fatigue cycles in the worst possible unsuspected places, your heirs will be the first to hear the post-mortem analysis. Very scary.
Dave
But they do say LET THE SKIDS FLEX sidewards, for that is the natural suspension of the helicopter, bolting skids down tight will result in fatigue cracks in gear mount knuckles. So mine is chain-tethered at the 4 corners of skids, to the trailer, free to dance around but not slide off (it never even tries to slide off).
They do say SUPPORT THE TAIL BOOM very carefully or you will get cracks in the upper frame where it attaches. I use a steel gallows, cloth sling, and multiple preloaded bungees (my guess is that the tailboom weighs 50#, the factory doesn't know!!!)
They do say SUPPORT THE MAIN ROTOR BLADES about 5' in from the tips. This is to protect the droop stops AND to minimize flexing/folding of blades. I use 5'-long cuffs supported by flexible cords on a rigid trampoline supported by steel-tube A-frames to the trailer frame.
And they will not reveal even a single instance of a Robinson having been damaged in any way by being trailered. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened; but it suggests trailering is not especially dangerous.
There seem to be many (50?) R22's on trailers on USA highways. Opinions on trailer design run the full gamut, I have yet to discover an engineering analysis for the ideal trailer.
My own, in use 2 years/30,000 miles without incident, is an open single-axle 2000# GW converted snowmobile trailer, intended (by me) for smooth highway travel only. 2-axle trailers are common, usually 7500# GW. RHC and others recommend making sure the trailer is loaded to max weight so the springs will act as softly as possible--I don't know how to do that with two or three axles, for they don't make (or I haven't seen) low-capacity axle-spring combos facilitating loading to max gross weight with only a 1000# helicopter! (Enclosing the trailer would go a long way in that direction.)
I have a flat bed. Training/safety wings fold out flat for TO/Ldg making the trailer 12' wide. After two years of this, I begin to think I would better have had wide 15" high skid-guiding-channels at sides of trailer, so that once you position skids in hover & descend vertically the channels guide the chopper straight down, and you can be more assured that chopping the collective at any lateral lurch wll result in aborting dynamic rollover safely. Other trailers seem to be evenly divided between methods.
How steady are your nerves? Tooling down the highway/track with all those potholes/pseudo-drivers trying to nail you and your helicopter will give you ulcers in short order! AND there's no hard-core engineering data to tell you you're not accumulating fatigue cycles in the worst possible unsuspected places, your heirs will be the first to hear the post-mortem analysis. Very scary.
Dave
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Contact the following:
Rudy Huerta
210-863-8959
He's built a trailer that converts to a landing platform specifically for the R22. Also, it includes a 100 gallon tank for fuel. I don't have a completed picture, but the frame looks good and thought was put into the suspension. Finally, this is an ENCLOSED system that opens up for the landing platform.
Rudy Huerta
210-863-8959
He's built a trailer that converts to a landing platform specifically for the R22. Also, it includes a 100 gallon tank for fuel. I don't have a completed picture, but the frame looks good and thought was put into the suspension. Finally, this is an ENCLOSED system that opens up for the landing platform.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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R22: loss of control if pax strikes yoke?
Hearing rumors that many fatal zero-g accidents in R22's might result from non-flying occupant zooming hand diagonally up from lap to point at something and accidentally forcibly striking yoke, knocking it out of pilot's hand.
So, another poll: has anybody survived discovering what happens if the pilot's hand suddenly leaves the yoke? How wild do the gyrations get before he recovers his grasp and stabilizes?
(We assume the trimming bungee is too weak or too strong by a few pounds, that being more or less the norm.)
So, another poll: has anybody survived discovering what happens if the pilot's hand suddenly leaves the yoke? How wild do the gyrations get before he recovers his grasp and stabilizes?
(We assume the trimming bungee is too weak or too strong by a few pounds, that being more or less the norm.)
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
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By reading the incident/Accident reports of the CAA website here in the UK you are able to understand why and how some incidents/accident have occurred, however I have never read anything that indicated the loss of control due to pax involuntary input on the yolk.
Control can be affected if the pax leans forward, and if a large pax this can have alarming results, but on the R22 unless you are totally out of your head you hold everything that you should!
PeterR-B
Vfr
Control can be affected if the pax leans forward, and if a large pax this can have alarming results, but on the R22 unless you are totally out of your head you hold everything that you should!
PeterR-B
Vfr