R22 Corner
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Heliport,
You need to get out more often. Lu has been doing this for a very long time on alot of boards. He has pissed off most Robinson professionals and you can find dozens of "rude" posts all over the internet from people sick of Lu and is unfounded accusations. The reason Lu is such a threat is that he claims to be an engineer and people listen to him more than some pilot who only spreads rumors. I can only discredit his lack of any evidence and processes because he has neither.
Do you just take his side because you believe him or that he paid you some money?
You need to get out more often. Lu has been doing this for a very long time on alot of boards. He has pissed off most Robinson professionals and you can find dozens of "rude" posts all over the internet from people sick of Lu and is unfounded accusations. The reason Lu is such a threat is that he claims to be an engineer and people listen to him more than some pilot who only spreads rumors. I can only discredit his lack of any evidence and processes because he has neither.
Do you just take his side because you believe him or that he paid you some money?
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How funny! 
One member harangues me for not stepping in to stop people being rude to Lu and, within hours, another accuses me of taking Lu's side - either because I believe what he says or because he's paid me money.
I'm fully aware of Lu's history and activities on this and other boards. Provided he keeps to Pprune rules and abides by my decisions even when he disagrees with them - both of which he's done without fail since I lifted the longest ban I've ever imposed on anyone - he's entitled to express his opinions here.
What are you suggesting? That Lu should be prevent from posting his views?
Heliport
One member harangues me for not stepping in to stop people being rude to Lu and, within hours, another accuses me of taking Lu's side - either because I believe what he says or because he's paid me money.
I'm fully aware of Lu's history and activities on this and other boards. Provided he keeps to Pprune rules and abides by my decisions even when he disagrees with them - both of which he's done without fail since I lifted the longest ban I've ever imposed on anyone - he's entitled to express his opinions here.
What are you suggesting? That Lu should be prevent from posting his views?
Heliport
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Back to the problem at hand,
Lu, I did your test at 80 kts and it appeared to me that the cyclic was at the rigged neutral position (except forward for the airspeed) at 80 kts. Now it may have been 1/2 cm left or right but just from a basic observation it appeared to be in the same sweet spot used on the ground.
Lu, I did your test at 80 kts and it appeared to me that the cyclic was at the rigged neutral position (except forward for the airspeed) at 80 kts. Now it may have been 1/2 cm left or right but just from a basic observation it appeared to be in the same sweet spot used on the ground.
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Lu makes some interesting observations and a few good points. I think it's always good to get a different perspective. Sadly, Lu's explanation of the rotorhead's function is incorrect in several ways. Therefore, it is up to each individual to weigh opinions posted on any public forum and to discern the truth for yourself.
These debates have raged on for a L - O - N - G time, with Lu. I chose not to engage them anymore because it is a mind numbing exercise... with little reward. Now, Lu has given some real insights to a lot of other areas, so don't throw out the baby with the bath water!
Keep an open mind!
These debates have raged on for a L - O - N - G time, with Lu. I chose not to engage them anymore because it is a mind numbing exercise... with little reward. Now, Lu has given some real insights to a lot of other areas, so don't throw out the baby with the bath water!
Keep an open mind!
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No one will ever know, but Lu might have already saved one or more lives, just because some Robinson pilots may have shown a little more respect for the limitations of the craft they are flying.
____________________________
Lu,
You are concerned about the Robinson blade tip coming so close to the tail boom that an incursion occurs. Here's a little something that might take you a couple of inches closer to your concern.
Presented with damn little math.
If the Robinson's rotor is totally unloaded, centrifugal force will cause the two blade tip and the two coning hinges to all be aligned in the same plane.
Conventional teetering rotors have a pre-cone angle of about 2.5º. The Robinson rotor has a radius of 151". Therefore, if the Robinson rotor had a 2.5º pre-cone the stiffness of the rotor would attempt to have the blade tips [sine(2.5) x 151" =] 6.6" higher then they would be without the pre-cone. Of course, centrifugal force will reduce the effect of this pre-coned angle, as it moves out along the span of the blade from the root to the tip.
All things being equal, the Robinson's blade tips will probably be a couple of inches closer to the tail boom than would those on a comparable conventional teetering rotor.
This might get you a couple of inches closer to your objective. Mind you, most men (and women) will think that 2" isn't much to boast about.
____________________________
Lu,
You are concerned about the Robinson blade tip coming so close to the tail boom that an incursion occurs. Here's a little something that might take you a couple of inches closer to your concern.
Presented with damn little math.
If the Robinson's rotor is totally unloaded, centrifugal force will cause the two blade tip and the two coning hinges to all be aligned in the same plane.
Conventional teetering rotors have a pre-cone angle of about 2.5º. The Robinson rotor has a radius of 151". Therefore, if the Robinson rotor had a 2.5º pre-cone the stiffness of the rotor would attempt to have the blade tips [sine(2.5) x 151" =] 6.6" higher then they would be without the pre-cone. Of course, centrifugal force will reduce the effect of this pre-coned angle, as it moves out along the span of the blade from the root to the tip.
All things being equal, the Robinson's blade tips will probably be a couple of inches closer to the tail boom than would those on a comparable conventional teetering rotor.
This might get you a couple of inches closer to your objective. Mind you, most men (and women) will think that 2" isn't much to boast about.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Have to say I didn't notice it. 
Maybe another 'Frankism' to stop pilots forgetting it later? Its also states Governor On, increase throttle......... RPM102-104% during the starting engine and run-up.
My worry with it is that a pilot may crank the throttle a little too far open, especially on the first (cold) start of the day and the RPM will run away over 80% and the govenor will engage taking the RPM right up to 104%.
PW
Maybe another 'Frankism' to stop pilots forgetting it later? Its also states Governor On, increase throttle......... RPM102-104% during the starting engine and run-up.
My worry with it is that a pilot may crank the throttle a little too far open, especially on the first (cold) start of the day and the RPM will run away over 80% and the govenor will engage taking the RPM right up to 104%.
PW
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Hi Charlie
yep its on the new check list of my clients R22 its Lost me though. any ideas. I have looked at 2 check lists he has had since he brought the machine and both are different.
I will have a chat to Loran at sloanes see if she knows why and come back to you
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
yep its on the new check list of my clients R22 its Lost me though. any ideas. I have looked at 2 check lists he has had since he brought the machine and both are different.
I will have a chat to Loran at sloanes see if she knows why and come back to you
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Cool as a moosp
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Yes, this brings it in line with the R44 ammendment that switches the governor on whilst you are running at low revs.
You can shake a stick at the number of times that Robbo pilots have seen the RPM creep up to 80% during the warm up period, often with trainees but sometimes through experienced inattention.
When it hits 80% in kicks the governor and you get your 104 or whatever on your machine. Big surprise for the trainee, big surprise for the experienced guy on a slippery surface.
I foresee a rollover with this procedure. Personally I still keep the governor off until I want it on, that is when the frictions are off and I am ready to fly. What to do when you are training a guy with a procedure different from the POH? They will have a good question as to why you are non-standard.
I'd like to hear from Robinson flight ops why they want it this way. It seems counter-intuitive.
You can shake a stick at the number of times that Robbo pilots have seen the RPM creep up to 80% during the warm up period, often with trainees but sometimes through experienced inattention.
When it hits 80% in kicks the governor and you get your 104 or whatever on your machine. Big surprise for the trainee, big surprise for the experienced guy on a slippery surface.
I foresee a rollover with this procedure. Personally I still keep the governor off until I want it on, that is when the frictions are off and I am ready to fly. What to do when you are training a guy with a procedure different from the POH? They will have a good question as to why you are non-standard.
I'd like to hear from Robinson flight ops why they want it this way. It seems counter-intuitive.
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It's a while since I flew the Robbie, but could it be to stop the careless pilot overspeeding the engine during start? From bitter experience I know that even a small crack open on a warm engine can give a major overspeed.
I would like to hear the reasons from Robinson...
What about the warm up process?
So... you will have an engine at 100% just after hitting the key without a rotor coupled?
Surely I'm missing something here, because I always connect the governor at +-100% RRPM
charlie s charlie:
It would be nice if you can scan and post those new checklists here.
Thanks.
What about the warm up process?
So... you will have an engine at 100% just after hitting the key without a rotor coupled?
Surely I'm missing something here, because I always connect the governor at +-100% RRPM
charlie s charlie:
It would be nice if you can scan and post those new checklists here.
Thanks.
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The governor doesnt kick in until 80 percent so you can still have a warm up period and the engine will stay at 55 percent until you bring it up manually above the 80 percent.
PPRuNe Enigma
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OK, but I like to bring the RPM up to mid-90's and check the horn before engaging the governor. Plus, as has been mentioned, having it kick in from 80% could swing you round on a slippery surface.
I'm not convinced that the governor is the best way prevent an overspeed if starting with the throttle open - anyway, if that's the intention, wouldn't it be more to the point to ensure that the throttle is closed rather than putting the governor on ? If you do "Throttle - closed" after "Twists for priming" then you won't get an overspeed.
Thanks for posting the new list csc - haven't we got "Governor on" twice now ?
I'm not convinced that the governor is the best way prevent an overspeed if starting with the throttle open - anyway, if that's the intention, wouldn't it be more to the point to ensure that the throttle is closed rather than putting the governor on ? If you do "Throttle - closed" after "Twists for priming" then you won't get an overspeed.
Thanks for posting the new list csc - haven't we got "Governor on" twice now ?
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I have to agree with MOOOSP i have said to my guy to keep the govenor off untill toward the later part of the check list after he has done the horn check and is ready to go to flight idle ready for flight it was the last item on my list when i did my robbo stuff and it still seems the sencible option but as all have said it would be interesting to here what the reasoning is from the man him self.
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Jcooper thanks , I was missing the 80% thing...
Grainger: We need to turn off the governor to do magnetos checks etc. (but it isn't shown on the checklist) so there is another time the "governor on"?
Anyway in our checklists we have a "throttle closed" before starting the engine, I can't see the need for a "governor on"
I'm also wondering why my school is teaching to do the checks at 100% when in this checklist shows at 75%? (no matter?)
And why in this checklist you must do the low rrpm check with GOV ON, aren't you forcing the governor without need?
He**! I will have a talk with my school, I would like to have access to all those amendmets, new checklist etc.
Thanks charlie s charlie for posting
Grainger: We need to turn off the governor to do magnetos checks etc. (but it isn't shown on the checklist) so there is another time the "governor on"?
Anyway in our checklists we have a "throttle closed" before starting the engine, I can't see the need for a "governor on"
I'm also wondering why my school is teaching to do the checks at 100% when in this checklist shows at 75%? (no matter?)
And why in this checklist you must do the low rrpm check with GOV ON, aren't you forcing the governor without need?
He**! I will have a talk with my school, I would like to have access to all those amendmets, new checklist etc.
Thanks charlie s charlie for posting
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Hi aser
Your check list and school profile is from the old days 100% mag drop then horn etc
the amendment that i was getting used to was 75% mag check
75% needle split
roll throttle to 100 /104%start to raise the lever and roll off throttle horn on lower lever roll throttle on 104% stable A/C govenor on.
you are right charlie,s post has created interesting feed back as to the approach of schools to check lists and there continuaty of them.
however it still leaves us all in the dark as to gov on so early in the check list.
has some one got franks email address and we can ask him this is interesting as could by any chance, this be a miss print
A curious
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Your check list and school profile is from the old days 100% mag drop then horn etc
the amendment that i was getting used to was 75% mag check
75% needle split
roll throttle to 100 /104%start to raise the lever and roll off throttle horn on lower lever roll throttle on 104% stable A/C govenor on.
you are right charlie,s post has created interesting feed back as to the approach of schools to check lists and there continuaty of them.
however it still leaves us all in the dark as to gov on so early in the check list.
has some one got franks email address and we can ask him this is interesting as could by any chance, this be a miss print
A curious
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Last edited by Bravo 99 (AJB); 26th May 2004 at 06:45.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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Regarding the mag check - the best option has to be to test them at the RPM you ll be operating at when you need to make sure that they ll work independently if required? ie - 102-104%.
PW
PW
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I would agree with you pilot wolf but the schools that i have operated at/trained with have said do it this way.
so yes it would be good to get some feed back from the main men when i get in to night i try and see if i can get an email off to them.
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
so yes it would be good to get some feed back from the main men when i get in to night i try and see if i can get an email off to them.
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
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When the 75% mag check came in, I was told it was to keep the noise down as much as possible during the ground checks. I must admit I had not been aware of the 75% sprag clutch check before.
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Mag checks at 75%
When I questioned the last change of the start card (mag checks at 75% not at 104%) with my friendly Robinson dealer.
I was informed that Frankie was getting concerned with the large amount of time his helicopters were sitting on the ground at operating revs and consequently a slight cyclic movement would cause abnormal vibration through the rotor head and shake, rattle and roll the associated components.
The R44 at 70% instead of 70 to 80% was to prevent the grumbling noise from the fan housing.
I also don't agree with the gov on before starting idea, even with the gov switched on it will not prevent an overspeed at start up, it does not have enough time to reduce the revs.
When I questioned the last change of the start card (mag checks at 75% not at 104%) with my friendly Robinson dealer.
I was informed that Frankie was getting concerned with the large amount of time his helicopters were sitting on the ground at operating revs and consequently a slight cyclic movement would cause abnormal vibration through the rotor head and shake, rattle and roll the associated components.
The R44 at 70% instead of 70 to 80% was to prevent the grumbling noise from the fan housing.
I also don't agree with the gov on before starting idea, even with the gov switched on it will not prevent an overspeed at start up, it does not have enough time to reduce the revs.