R22 Corner
Some how some people here have arrived at the conclusion that the blades were time ex. Surely this is mere speculation at this juncture? By discussing this issue below, I make no judgement or comment upon its relevance to Fraser's sad passing.
im with t'aint natural above - hobbs meters, etc are not going to stop time ex blades being used are they? Just need to falsify a few different bits of papers/serial numbers, etc. But I think Mr Selfish has made an excellent point when he calls the "dodgy operators" who falsify such issues as "murderers". Though most have yet to cause actual deaths, or have caused a narrow escape, so perhaps they should be called "wannabe murderers"
Lets not shy away from the term by calling them dodgy operators, or people trying to make a quick buck, or even people trying to maximise the engineering tolerances built in - lets call 'em what they are - wannabe murderers!!
im with t'aint natural above - hobbs meters, etc are not going to stop time ex blades being used are they? Just need to falsify a few different bits of papers/serial numbers, etc. But I think Mr Selfish has made an excellent point when he calls the "dodgy operators" who falsify such issues as "murderers". Though most have yet to cause actual deaths, or have caused a narrow escape, so perhaps they should be called "wannabe murderers"
Lets not shy away from the term by calling them dodgy operators, or people trying to make a quick buck, or even people trying to maximise the engineering tolerances built in - lets call 'em what they are - wannabe murderers!!
Iconoclast
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Keeping things secret
According to a post made by someone in the know on another site the subject helicopter was used as a mustering helicopter and when the new operator acquired the ship the original owners were not too forthcoming relative to the ships history.
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I agree with Winnie. The R22 is flimsy. In one case the student's knee board blew out the removed door and took out the tail rotor causing him to crash and be killed. Now that's flimsy. We'er talking about a helicopter that can't even fly in moderate turbulance because it will mast bump. Listen to this whole thread, talking about going over time on blades and pulling aircraft over power.
If your aircraft can't do the job at this wieght and temperature you need a different aircraft. The R22 is useless for most things people try to make it do like tuna spotting, ag ops, law enforcemnt, even flight training. And from what I read here today you can add cattle mustering to the list.
If your aircraft can't do the job at this wieght and temperature you need a different aircraft. The R22 is useless for most things people try to make it do like tuna spotting, ag ops, law enforcemnt, even flight training. And from what I read here today you can add cattle mustering to the list.
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Flimsy maybe ,but you only get what you pay for.A Ford is Flimsy compaired to a Mercedes to.
If they were that bad they wouldnt have been approved to fly.
Dont know the percentage rate of crashes to other helicopters ,but i doubt it would be anymore.
Sure ,people fiddle the books and some operators take short cuts,but thats no fault of an R22.
I think cattle mustering is a true tribute to R22,s.If no ones seen what they get put through ,try and find a film of it.
Sure ,they crash--most of time real low flying ,in and out of trees etc.,plus non stop working.
Cowboys by job and cowboys by how they used to fly,the last being the one for most accidents.(sorry guys),although times are changing.
When it comes to man ,flying or fixing ,nothing is 100% safe.
If they were that bad they wouldnt have been approved to fly.
Dont know the percentage rate of crashes to other helicopters ,but i doubt it would be anymore.
Sure ,people fiddle the books and some operators take short cuts,but thats no fault of an R22.
I think cattle mustering is a true tribute to R22,s.If no ones seen what they get put through ,try and find a film of it.
Sure ,they crash--most of time real low flying ,in and out of trees etc.,plus non stop working.
Cowboys by job and cowboys by how they used to fly,the last being the one for most accidents.(sorry guys),although times are changing.
When it comes to man ,flying or fixing ,nothing is 100% safe.
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Actually the same people that did the development also did the certification of the R22 so that would explane how it could be allowed to fly and in the US theres also SFAR 73.
All I know about stats is that you can find one to prove anything. According to what I have read on www.ntsb.gov Robinsons have had a total of 26 fatal crashes veruses, for example, all types of Bell 47 which has a total of 16.
All I know about stats is that you can find one to prove anything. According to what I have read on www.ntsb.gov Robinsons have had a total of 26 fatal crashes veruses, for example, all types of Bell 47 which has a total of 16.
PPRuNe Enigma
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"The R22 is useless for most things ..... you can add cattle mustering to the list."
Errrr no, just for those things where it's operated outside of its specified limitations and well beyond the correct TBO. Just like any other aircraft.
Errrr no, just for those things where it's operated outside of its specified limitations and well beyond the correct TBO. Just like any other aircraft.
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t'aint natural
Didn't we hear from Nick Lappos that the latest certification requirements for FAR/JAR 29 require that the tailrotor be capable of sustaining the strike of a 1kg bird at top speed? OK then the S92!
Didn't we hear from Nick Lappos that the latest certification requirements for FAR/JAR 29 require that the tailrotor be capable of sustaining the strike of a 1kg bird at top speed? OK then the S92!
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24x:
Except for ag spraying, where it will take "only" 40 gal versus average 75-80 in a Bell-47, there is no job where a Bell-47 will outperform a R22. Well except you have to lug around 230+ pounders! As Grainger said stay within the limits and you won´t have any trouble! Other than that there is no competition for the R-22!!...........know one?
Pulling overweight, overtorque, over anything is not a good idea in any helicopter. If you think only because you have a bigger machine it will help - wrong - it will be loaded to the limit just like any other helicopter too! I have to take s##t often enough, because I do not fly off with full fuel and a full load, this requiring someone to drive fuel into the field. I always tell the boss the same, that I am already close to redline on takeoff. Always receive the same answer: BS, it can take it easily!
Same reaction always too: I don´t give a damn! I´ll burn it you blame me too! Better get the fuel out or you fly yourself!
So far always got my fuel. However I guess my days are counted, as others (lowtimers) are eager to get in and are willing to do "as told".
To put it on the R-22 is a sorry move!
3top
Except for ag spraying, where it will take "only" 40 gal versus average 75-80 in a Bell-47, there is no job where a Bell-47 will outperform a R22. Well except you have to lug around 230+ pounders! As Grainger said stay within the limits and you won´t have any trouble! Other than that there is no competition for the R-22!!...........know one?
Pulling overweight, overtorque, over anything is not a good idea in any helicopter. If you think only because you have a bigger machine it will help - wrong - it will be loaded to the limit just like any other helicopter too! I have to take s##t often enough, because I do not fly off with full fuel and a full load, this requiring someone to drive fuel into the field. I always tell the boss the same, that I am already close to redline on takeoff. Always receive the same answer: BS, it can take it easily!
Same reaction always too: I don´t give a damn! I´ll burn it you blame me too! Better get the fuel out or you fly yourself!
So far always got my fuel. However I guess my days are counted, as others (lowtimers) are eager to get in and are willing to do "as told".
To put it on the R-22 is a sorry move!
3top
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Thanks Bellsux for the use of you user name to get this message across
A very large Percentage of R22 sold in Australia - Fact!
91% of problems for Robinson come out of Australia - Fact!
Why is this so?
Because some of the people that operate these machines think that they can play god, flog the machine, double the hours the sell it on to some unsuspecting buyer to go and kill them selves in.
This is not a helicopter Problem its operator grose neglect - Fact!
The helcopter that killed my dear friend Fraser and his student was an ex-muster machine - Fact!
I makes me so F#*@ing mad !!!! What can you do to stop it?
I just hope to hell that CASA can trace this back to the bastards that owned the machine in the 1st place and hang, draw and quarter them ( I'm sure there would be a great crowd)
To Fraser, the 1st and best instructor I ever had, It angers me to think what your last moments were like. It is so unfair and unjust for you to be taken from us like this and so soon.
my heart and wishes are with your 2 boys and Prescilla.
Rest in peace my friend
Love
CC
(Chopper Chick)
A very large Percentage of R22 sold in Australia - Fact!
91% of problems for Robinson come out of Australia - Fact!
Why is this so?
Because some of the people that operate these machines think that they can play god, flog the machine, double the hours the sell it on to some unsuspecting buyer to go and kill them selves in.
This is not a helicopter Problem its operator grose neglect - Fact!
The helcopter that killed my dear friend Fraser and his student was an ex-muster machine - Fact!
I makes me so F#*@ing mad !!!! What can you do to stop it?
I just hope to hell that CASA can trace this back to the bastards that owned the machine in the 1st place and hang, draw and quarter them ( I'm sure there would be a great crowd)
To Fraser, the 1st and best instructor I ever had, It angers me to think what your last moments were like. It is so unfair and unjust for you to be taken from us like this and so soon.
my heart and wishes are with your 2 boys and Prescilla.
Rest in peace my friend
Love
CC
(Chopper Chick)
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I came back from holidays to find the CASA AD about the R22 blades on my table.
The AD has 4 parts which concern all blades with more than 1500 hours on them.
Part 1 - Magnified glass (X 10) inspection of the blade root
Part 2. Eddy Current testing
Part 3. Removal of the D Spar Bolt with cleaning and checking and torque testing the replacement of the bolt
Part 4 Placarding stating, essentially, land if you get a major vibration flkight.
After a phone call to my LAME I couldn't believe what he'd said and wonder if any other Oz R22 drivers have heard or can confirm any of the these bits of info.
Part 1 - no problem although maybe more difficult out in the bush
Part 4. Makes sense and hardly requires a placard
But....
Part 2 - My LAME says there are NO people currently qualified and with the right gear in Australia AT ALL to conduct the eddy test. The only one who is in current business with the qualification is Peter Boyle in Sydney and he hasn't done any for 5 years and isn't current (or doesn't feel he is current enough-which is fair enough) to do them. Other LAME's stated in the AD as being able to do them don't actually have anyone qualified to do them.
Doing the course or getting the qualification is not readily available in OZ.
Also buying the Eddy Test machine is about $AUS 14,000 and if a LAME buys one AND if Robinson brings out an updated blade that doesn't require testing the LAME is stuck with a white elephant. So even if the qualification were easy to get no one will get the machine for fear of wasting their money.
Part 3. The claim is that this was done without Robinsons approval and they have refused to approve removing the bolt out side of the factory (Because it requires removal of the epoxy filler and replacement afterwards with no control over shape, sectional aerodynamic shape etc) so once the bolt is removed the blades are then unairworthy by default even if nothing is wrong with them.
The follow-on part was that Robinson are considering dropping the life on the blades down to 1500 hours if CASA persist with the AD Part 3.
The only option is replace your blades if they have more than 1500 hours on them.
Apparently there are very few sets of new blades in Oz and none available for about 3 months out of USA cos they are just keeping up with their complete R22 output without trying to make extra blades.
If the blades aren't tested by July 31st the aircraft has to be grounded.
This sounds like an enormous circular argument which is leading to grounding half the R22 fleet on July 31st with no way of fixing the problem.
Anyone heard any of these rumours/comments?
Am I going to have a 400 kg paperweight in my hangar in 3 weeks?
The AD has 4 parts which concern all blades with more than 1500 hours on them.
Part 1 - Magnified glass (X 10) inspection of the blade root
Part 2. Eddy Current testing
Part 3. Removal of the D Spar Bolt with cleaning and checking and torque testing the replacement of the bolt
Part 4 Placarding stating, essentially, land if you get a major vibration flkight.
After a phone call to my LAME I couldn't believe what he'd said and wonder if any other Oz R22 drivers have heard or can confirm any of the these bits of info.
Part 1 - no problem although maybe more difficult out in the bush
Part 4. Makes sense and hardly requires a placard
But....
Part 2 - My LAME says there are NO people currently qualified and with the right gear in Australia AT ALL to conduct the eddy test. The only one who is in current business with the qualification is Peter Boyle in Sydney and he hasn't done any for 5 years and isn't current (or doesn't feel he is current enough-which is fair enough) to do them. Other LAME's stated in the AD as being able to do them don't actually have anyone qualified to do them.
Doing the course or getting the qualification is not readily available in OZ.
Also buying the Eddy Test machine is about $AUS 14,000 and if a LAME buys one AND if Robinson brings out an updated blade that doesn't require testing the LAME is stuck with a white elephant. So even if the qualification were easy to get no one will get the machine for fear of wasting their money.
Part 3. The claim is that this was done without Robinsons approval and they have refused to approve removing the bolt out side of the factory (Because it requires removal of the epoxy filler and replacement afterwards with no control over shape, sectional aerodynamic shape etc) so once the bolt is removed the blades are then unairworthy by default even if nothing is wrong with them.
The follow-on part was that Robinson are considering dropping the life on the blades down to 1500 hours if CASA persist with the AD Part 3.
The only option is replace your blades if they have more than 1500 hours on them.
Apparently there are very few sets of new blades in Oz and none available for about 3 months out of USA cos they are just keeping up with their complete R22 output without trying to make extra blades.
If the blades aren't tested by July 31st the aircraft has to be grounded.
This sounds like an enormous circular argument which is leading to grounding half the R22 fleet on July 31st with no way of fixing the problem.
Anyone heard any of these rumours/comments?
Am I going to have a 400 kg paperweight in my hangar in 3 weeks?
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I guess the only way to resolve this problem is to go after the previous operators and proof they sold expired blades with the chopper. I hope they get to do this and lock the a##h###s away in the process.
Seems the Aussie authorities are just as prone to do "not well thought over" things, not do use some harsher words. Rules that cannot be complided with are dumb........
Robinson will be interested to find the real cause, as it really seems to be an Aussie problem, but never the less is putting a bad light on the R-22.
3top
Seems the Aussie authorities are just as prone to do "not well thought over" things, not do use some harsher words. Rules that cannot be complided with are dumb........
Robinson will be interested to find the real cause, as it really seems to be an Aussie problem, but never the less is putting a bad light on the R-22.
3top
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In a perfect world every maintenance schedule would be met and every pilot would would react perfectly to every problem.
But in the real world pilots and mechanics mess up. Some don't even mess up they do it on purpose. So, a good aircraft will give you a chance to save yourself.
Yes, the R22 is a perfect aircraft. No one ever said it couldn't out preform all other pistons. Just hope you get the collective down in the micro second it needs when you run our of gas.
And hope the A&P didn't miss anything in that last inspection.
I could give examples of stuff being missed, maintenance performed wrong, or pilot error in other types where the pilot was able to detect it or recover form it before he had to buy the farm.
Now somebody is going to say "The R22 doesn't auto any worse than a BK117 or MD500."
That proves my whole point. Would you solo a student in an MD500?
But everytime we send a student to solo in an R22 we are sending them in a helicopter that autos just like one.
And the pilots that fly 117s and 500 have thousands of hours.
But it's ok, like Robinson said 'if you don't kill my engine you won't need to auto.' So watch that fuel and don't forget the carb heat.
Out
But in the real world pilots and mechanics mess up. Some don't even mess up they do it on purpose. So, a good aircraft will give you a chance to save yourself.
Yes, the R22 is a perfect aircraft. No one ever said it couldn't out preform all other pistons. Just hope you get the collective down in the micro second it needs when you run our of gas.
And hope the A&P didn't miss anything in that last inspection.
I could give examples of stuff being missed, maintenance performed wrong, or pilot error in other types where the pilot was able to detect it or recover form it before he had to buy the farm.
Now somebody is going to say "The R22 doesn't auto any worse than a BK117 or MD500."
That proves my whole point. Would you solo a student in an MD500?
But everytime we send a student to solo in an R22 we are sending them in a helicopter that autos just like one.
And the pilots that fly 117s and 500 have thousands of hours.
But it's ok, like Robinson said 'if you don't kill my engine you won't need to auto.' So watch that fuel and don't forget the carb heat.
Out
Last edited by 24Xray; 9th Jul 2003 at 03:48.
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Good discussion on this thread. 
Off-topic, but I wondered if any of you guys have got some pics which you can add to the Rotorheads around the World thread?
We've got a great collection already, but a few more pics from your part of the world would be very welcome.
Heliport
Off-topic, but I wondered if any of you guys have got some pics which you can add to the Rotorheads around the World thread?
We've got a great collection already, but a few more pics from your part of the world would be very welcome.
Heliport
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RobboRider: Hawkers in Cairns have a couple of eddy current qualified guys and the equipment. If a specific probe is required I dont think they are too expensive
They may just have to obtain an approved procedure, which would not be too difficult (usually only a fax or email away).
They may just have to obtain an approved procedure, which would not be too difficult (usually only a fax or email away).
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24Xray -
If you were being sarcastic ignore this post, if not read on:
Upon what reasoning is the R22 'perfect'? I could think of several improvements, and if it was perfect then it would not require a 'micro second' of time to react in the event of a sudden engine out.
To enter an autorotation you would have to lower the collective, not the cyclic. At least that's what I teach.
With regard to autorotations the margin for error in the R22 is somewhat smaller when compared to a 500 or 117, particularly when talking rotor rpm. (The 117 I'm not sure about and stand to be corrected as I've never flown one.)
Yes we would solo a student in the 500 if (a) the person had enough money to do all his training in a turbine aircraft and (b) the insurance company would allow it.
Not all pilots that fly 117's and 500's have thousands of hours.......
With regards to the last comment please explain what happens when the drive belts break or the tail rotor drive shaft fails.......is autorotation not required? Is there some sort of secret procedure I have missed?
If you were being sarcastic ignore this post, if not read on:
Upon what reasoning is the R22 'perfect'? I could think of several improvements, and if it was perfect then it would not require a 'micro second' of time to react in the event of a sudden engine out.
To enter an autorotation you would have to lower the collective, not the cyclic. At least that's what I teach.
With regard to autorotations the margin for error in the R22 is somewhat smaller when compared to a 500 or 117, particularly when talking rotor rpm. (The 117 I'm not sure about and stand to be corrected as I've never flown one.)
Yes we would solo a student in the 500 if (a) the person had enough money to do all his training in a turbine aircraft and (b) the insurance company would allow it.
Not all pilots that fly 117's and 500's have thousands of hours.......
With regards to the last comment please explain what happens when the drive belts break or the tail rotor drive shaft fails.......is autorotation not required? Is there some sort of secret procedure I have missed?