R22 Corner
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Hello gang,
was rather busy, so here a late reply:
To Dave Jackson: Thanks for the Search string, I will try it as soon as I find time!(18 degree offset discussion....)
To the rest:
I just got a 1850 hr R-44 head through my fingers, except for cut lining by a bolt during a less than optimal procedure during blade install I could find absolutely nothing wrong. The bushings were changed according to manual and the head is like new!
The coning hinges have hardly any friction, however if the teeter hinge looses all friction and the coning hinge keeps some, a pronounced vibration at speed will result.
To Lu: As far as I understand the coning hinges will of course constantly work to adjust to different lift loads during their way around the disk, however the flapping action should be the same as with any underslung head, based on the teeterhinge. If not so, see above.
3top
was rather busy, so here a late reply:
To Dave Jackson: Thanks for the Search string, I will try it as soon as I find time!(18 degree offset discussion....)
To the rest:
I just got a 1850 hr R-44 head through my fingers, except for cut lining by a bolt during a less than optimal procedure during blade install I could find absolutely nothing wrong. The bushings were changed according to manual and the head is like new!
The coning hinges have hardly any friction, however if the teeter hinge looses all friction and the coning hinge keeps some, a pronounced vibration at speed will result.
To Lu: As far as I understand the coning hinges will of course constantly work to adjust to different lift loads during their way around the disk, however the flapping action should be the same as with any underslung head, based on the teeterhinge. If not so, see above.
3top
Vne power off on R22
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Iīll check the book tomorrow!
But you will have a hard time to get it a whole lot past 75 kts - max glide distance speed (with 90% rotor rpm)
3top,
But you will have a hard time to get it a whole lot past 75 kts - max glide distance speed (with 90% rotor rpm)
3top,
Last edited by 3top; 12th Sep 2002 at 03:09.
PPRuNe Enigma
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Interestingly, although the R22 has no explicit mention of a limit, the R44 does have a 100 kt limit in autorotation indicated by a red and white hatched line on the ASI.
Randy_G
Join Date: Jul 2002
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hi gang,
just called our chief flight instructor:
POH published power-off VNe is 100 kts for the R-44, same as doors off limit.
R-22 VNe general 102 kts ,no published power off VNe, so it is the same as power-on.
As metioned it is hard to press it a lot past 75Kts (R-22)
Vorticey: If you have to go down fast for any reason, like a cloud of birds (like a couple of thousand/cloud and then there are a couple of clouds on after the other...) - in eg a migratory area, the fastes way is at low or no power (speak - auto) and high forward speed. This is pretty safe as long as you keep rotor rpm in check.
The other way or a combination of both is a steep-turn(45-60 degree bank)-spiral, the faster, the bigger the radius, the easier the recovery (or should I say the less difficult...?). You have to be careful when you roll out and pull out of the dive - donīt over pull the cyclic - round it out nicely!! DONīT try either one the first time by yourself!!! Get the best CFI you can get hold off (the more hours the better!)!
You also can slow down and autorotate at 20-30 kts and recover early, but that means you have to wait some precious seconds to bleed off speed and enter an auto.
With the above you just lower the collective until Rrpm takes off and then roll off some throttle (donīt forget the carb heat...), so you can clearly control Rrpm and keep the collective at the lowest possible, meanwhile push the cyclic to accelerate to max speed possible before hitting VNe. You get a pretty good decent rate!
3top
just called our chief flight instructor:
POH published power-off VNe is 100 kts for the R-44, same as doors off limit.
R-22 VNe general 102 kts ,no published power off VNe, so it is the same as power-on.
As metioned it is hard to press it a lot past 75Kts (R-22)
Vorticey: If you have to go down fast for any reason, like a cloud of birds (like a couple of thousand/cloud and then there are a couple of clouds on after the other...) - in eg a migratory area, the fastes way is at low or no power (speak - auto) and high forward speed. This is pretty safe as long as you keep rotor rpm in check.
The other way or a combination of both is a steep-turn(45-60 degree bank)-spiral, the faster, the bigger the radius, the easier the recovery (or should I say the less difficult...?). You have to be careful when you roll out and pull out of the dive - donīt over pull the cyclic - round it out nicely!! DONīT try either one the first time by yourself!!! Get the best CFI you can get hold off (the more hours the better!)!
You also can slow down and autorotate at 20-30 kts and recover early, but that means you have to wait some precious seconds to bleed off speed and enter an auto.
With the above you just lower the collective until Rrpm takes off and then roll off some throttle (donīt forget the carb heat...), so you can clearly control Rrpm and keep the collective at the lowest possible, meanwhile push the cyclic to accelerate to max speed possible before hitting VNe. You get a pretty good decent rate!
3top
R44 Doors off Vne
I have heard that the 100 Kts doors off Vne in the R44 is not an aerodynamic limitation but to minimise the risk of injury to passengers sticking their arms outside.
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hi dog - aah coyote:
you heard right, the 100kt doors off limit was suggested by a nonflying company engineer, that figured, if you stick your arm out into the slipstream, it might get you some rather painful modifications to your elbow and/or shoulder joint locations, if you do not do so with some pretesion applied to your arm.
I have it from a guy who knows Rīs insight out, that it is NO problem and bears no safety-riscs in terms of aerodynamics or structural integrity, if you push past this limit.
HOWEVER keep in mind the original intention of the engineer.
Plus it getīs pretty windy in the back if you push it, also lose objects are a concern with doors off, more so at high speed.
Interestingly, the R-22 has no doors off limit, other then Vne - 102 kts - I guess the R-22 is just safer at 102 then the R-44 at 100 kts, as you are already half out in the slipstream from the start!!
3top
you heard right, the 100kt doors off limit was suggested by a nonflying company engineer, that figured, if you stick your arm out into the slipstream, it might get you some rather painful modifications to your elbow and/or shoulder joint locations, if you do not do so with some pretesion applied to your arm.
I have it from a guy who knows Rīs insight out, that it is NO problem and bears no safety-riscs in terms of aerodynamics or structural integrity, if you push past this limit.
HOWEVER keep in mind the original intention of the engineer.
Plus it getīs pretty windy in the back if you push it, also lose objects are a concern with doors off, more so at high speed.
Interestingly, the R-22 has no doors off limit, other then Vne - 102 kts - I guess the R-22 is just safer at 102 then the R-44 at 100 kts, as you are already half out in the slipstream from the start!!
3top
3top, if you want to get down quick then just roll inverted and pull, it always worked well in the Lynx!!! Seriously you must ask why you would want to fly at 100 kts in auto as any increase in speed above the recommended auto speed for min RoD brings with it an increase in RoD - at 100 kts in a robbie your RoD would be very impressive and would probably not take you as far as if you were at 75 kts and 90%Nr.
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Hi crab,
IīD LOVE THE ROLL OVER AND PULL, but my R-44 doesnīt want, would you borrow me your LYNX???
You are right about RoD, this also holds true for increased Rrpm during auto. Some people (and instructors) teach a higher Rrpm to "have more inertia" when itīs time to flare. However you will need the additional inertia to slow your way increased RoD......
I teach them to stay at about 100% Rrpm, but practise, practise,practise and when your done, practise some more.
You shouldnīt feel good in the evening, if you had a chance to practise an auto or two and didnīt take it!!
However sometimes you just want to go down fast, without the need of an auto termination, as I metioned:
thousands/cloud, plenty of clouds: Turkey Vultures and/or Swanson Hawks migrating on their way to S-America or back to the U.S. of A.
One shouldnīt, but sometimes just gets caught. As long as I have a clear view down I prefer a quick decent to about 50-100 above the beach, than try to hover around OGE with thousands of ornithopters!!
The closest I ever saw a Lynx was on a tunaboat in the caribian, and a Royal Dutch navy helo payed a visit, hovering along sideways at bridge hight (about 20 ft) at about 12 kts. Besides the awkward looking wheels it is a nice ship!!
3top
IīD LOVE THE ROLL OVER AND PULL, but my R-44 doesnīt want, would you borrow me your LYNX???
You are right about RoD, this also holds true for increased Rrpm during auto. Some people (and instructors) teach a higher Rrpm to "have more inertia" when itīs time to flare. However you will need the additional inertia to slow your way increased RoD......
I teach them to stay at about 100% Rrpm, but practise, practise,practise and when your done, practise some more.
You shouldnīt feel good in the evening, if you had a chance to practise an auto or two and didnīt take it!!
However sometimes you just want to go down fast, without the need of an auto termination, as I metioned:
thousands/cloud, plenty of clouds: Turkey Vultures and/or Swanson Hawks migrating on their way to S-America or back to the U.S. of A.
One shouldnīt, but sometimes just gets caught. As long as I have a clear view down I prefer a quick decent to about 50-100 above the beach, than try to hover around OGE with thousands of ornithopters!!
The closest I ever saw a Lynx was on a tunaboat in the caribian, and a Royal Dutch navy helo payed a visit, hovering along sideways at bridge hight (about 20 ft) at about 12 kts. Besides the awkward looking wheels it is a nice ship!!
3top
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Don't want to cause any confusion - but I was told that the R44 limit was for entering autorotation. Apparently if you enter auto over 100 kts there's an aerodynamic certainty that the tailplane will kick you into a nosedown dive......same does not apply to R22. And, BTW, new Raven II announced with US price $35,000 more than Raven I. Uprated motor, 24v lx, higher HOGE, higher GW, higher max power takeoff - and a lighter wallet. Still no fuel injection and no sign of a diesel!
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Hi headset,
there is no speed limit to enter an auto. You enter whenever you HAVE to at ANY speed you have to. Vne power off is for the established auto. What are you going to do, when engine quits at 120 kts cruise? Slightly flair while lowering the collective - you will go horizontal quite a bit until getting to the recommended speed and establishing the correct descend.
If you enter a auto at or above 100 kts you might get into low "g", IF YOU DONīT DO THE RIGHT THING: Holding the nose up with slight aft cyclic!! .....while you lower the collective gently to avoid rpm decay or overspeed!!
Raven II has fuel injection, but not electronic. Max take off power, donīt know yet, max continous I understand is the same.
higher altidudes due to higher hp rating of the engine versus th e old one (260 - 280), so it can maintain specified 225 to a higher altidude. max gross increased by 100 lbs.
I let you know anything you want, when I got my eyes in close prox. and my hands on the controls, when our new ship shows up, sometimes in October, ! ! !!!
3top
there is no speed limit to enter an auto. You enter whenever you HAVE to at ANY speed you have to. Vne power off is for the established auto. What are you going to do, when engine quits at 120 kts cruise? Slightly flair while lowering the collective - you will go horizontal quite a bit until getting to the recommended speed and establishing the correct descend.
If you enter a auto at or above 100 kts you might get into low "g", IF YOU DONīT DO THE RIGHT THING: Holding the nose up with slight aft cyclic!! .....while you lower the collective gently to avoid rpm decay or overspeed!!
Raven II has fuel injection, but not electronic. Max take off power, donīt know yet, max continous I understand is the same.
higher altidudes due to higher hp rating of the engine versus th e old one (260 - 280), so it can maintain specified 225 to a higher altidude. max gross increased by 100 lbs.
I let you know anything you want, when I got my eyes in close prox. and my hands on the controls, when our new ship shows up, sometimes in October,
! ! !!!3top
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Hi again,
this afternoon I went over the POH of the R-22 with my student:
Turns out the R-22 has a Power-Off Vne after all!!
However it has one only when equipped with floats (Mariner):
Vne - power on: 95 kts
Vne - power -off: 85 kts
or according to the placard for speedlimits at altitude!
3top
this afternoon I went over the POH of the R-22 with my student:
Turns out the R-22 has a Power-Off Vne after all!!
However it has one only when equipped with floats (Mariner):
Vne - power on: 95 kts
Vne - power -off: 85 kts
or according to the placard for speedlimits at altitude!
3top
Join Date: Sep 2002
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R-22 lease back prices
Anyone know whats the current price per Hr for the leaseback of a R-22 in the UK.
Any other info on this subject would be very helpful.
Thank you
Robino
Any other info on this subject would be very helpful.
Thank you
Robino
it really does depend on the age of machine, condition, who's hangaring it, insuring it, whether its a wet or dry lease, how many hours they are going to fly etc. If you can be more specific I will try and help.
Insured by you on a dry lease of say 25 hours/month you'd be looking to get from Ģ75-85/hr depending on the machine.
Insured by you on a dry lease of say 25 hours/month you'd be looking to get from Ģ75-85/hr depending on the machine.
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In the UK, the rates seem to vary a bit, depending upon where you are - not sure why; perhaps supply and demand.
I am no longer in the R22 training game, but I get the impression that there is a bit of a shortage of R22s (and other simple, small helicopters) for training lease - Can anyone confirm?
I am no longer in the R22 training game, but I get the impression that there is a bit of a shortage of R22s (and other simple, small helicopters) for training lease - Can anyone confirm?