US Presidential Helicopter Bid (and Result)
Outside looking in...
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RDRickster,
D'you know - so have I now!
I think it started when someone, and please Nick or anyone else don't lets start again on who it was, suggested that only an all/100% USA h/c should be allowed to carry the US president. I took the views that if it had really come down to that argument then the "which is the most suitable helicopter" argument must have been won/lost and that it also showed that big decisions like this, in the end, are down to politics and that which is the best h/c hardly comes in to it. We then got sidetracked by accusations of, fuming and harrumphing then misquoting, quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people etc etc which I refuted and showed that I hadn't, except possibly that I am now warming to the idea of harrumphing. It sounds like the sort of thing more people should do.....
Please don't drag this on any more by disagreeing, or even agreeing, and stirring NL up again, as I think I am losing the will to
D'you know - so have I now!
I think it started when someone, and please Nick or anyone else don't lets start again on who it was, suggested that only an all/100% USA h/c should be allowed to carry the US president. I took the views that if it had really come down to that argument then the "which is the most suitable helicopter" argument must have been won/lost and that it also showed that big decisions like this, in the end, are down to politics and that which is the best h/c hardly comes in to it. We then got sidetracked by accusations of, fuming and harrumphing then misquoting, quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people etc etc which I refuted and showed that I hadn't, except possibly that I am now warming to the idea of harrumphing. It sounds like the sort of thing more people should do.....
Please don't drag this on any more by disagreeing, or even agreeing, and stirring NL up again, as I think I am losing the will to
Yo! Nick!
Canada has grounded their fleet of Comorants...is that not the vaunted competitor to the S-92? Seems the tail rotors want to fall off the thing....kinda like the Bell 412 in that regard.
How does this play into the competition?
Canada has grounded their fleet of Comorants...is that not the vaunted competitor to the S-92? Seems the tail rotors want to fall off the thing....kinda like the Bell 412 in that regard.
How does this play into the competition?
That's Life!!
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I don’t think that the 101 was ever a serious contender for this job.
When you fix a problem by adding a spring so the tail rotor won’t go to max pitch in the event of a linkage failure, instead of a re-design, you really can’t expect the world to take you seriously, and this was long before the ‘new’ T/R problems.
When you fix a problem by adding a spring so the tail rotor won’t go to max pitch in the event of a linkage failure, instead of a re-design, you really can’t expect the world to take you seriously, and this was long before the ‘new’ T/R problems.
When you fix a problem by adding a spring so the tail rotor won’t go to max pitch in the event of a linkage failure, instead of a re-design, you really can’t expect the world to take you seriously, and this was long before the ‘new’ T/R problems
The above quote from Sailor Vee could almost be directly aimed at the S76, and the mouse trap solution following failure of the tail rotor control cable. At least one fatal accident until the mouse trap, IIRC. The S76 was, and still is, one of my favourite helicopters, but it wasn't without its teething problems. Nor were many others which matured into solid performers.
My tuppence worth.
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John,
The S-76 has much more than a centering spring on the tail cable system. It is a mechanism that essentially makes the cable redundamt, a fair bit more than a spring. I will try to find some pics to post, if pprumers want it.
The S-76 has much more than a centering spring on the tail cable system. It is a mechanism that essentially makes the cable redundamt, a fair bit more than a spring. I will try to find some pics to post, if pprumers want it.
Nick,
I was overly simplistic, re the mousetrap, but thanks.
The point was that other excellent helicopters have had teething problems, some well into commercial service. SV's dig about springs on tail rotors reminded me of the S76 fix after the fatal off Thailand when the tail rotor cable snapped: Okanagan machine, went in from 6000' or so and hit the water, IIRC.
I was overly simplistic, re the mousetrap, but thanks.
The point was that other excellent helicopters have had teething problems, some well into commercial service. SV's dig about springs on tail rotors reminded me of the S76 fix after the fatal off Thailand when the tail rotor cable snapped: Okanagan machine, went in from 6000' or so and hit the water, IIRC.
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John Eacott,
Which is it, a new helicopter with teething problems? Or an experienced combat veteran with 56,000 hours?
I find it amusing that one helicopter can be both.
The crashes, groundings and miserable maintenance experience continue, either way!
Which is it, a new helicopter with teething problems? Or an experienced combat veteran with 56,000 hours?
I find it amusing that one helicopter can be both.
The crashes, groundings and miserable maintenance experience continue, either way!
RJS,
Read my posts. I made no reference to new helicopters, nor "combat yadda yadda". IIRC, the S76 (the only specific reference I made) had its tail rotor control problems after about 5-6 years in commercial service, and probably (stress probably) by then had many tens of thousands of hours fleet wide.
I fully accept that the S-92 appears a marvellous bit of kit, and wish it well. Similarly, the Merlin is a well equipped and excellent helicopter which is plagued with serviceability problems; to quote a Merlin driver on another thread
Standing on the sidelines, the virulent and vindictive attacks on the 101 don't appeal to me. Personal irrit, but there it is; such diatribes don't make me inclined to view the S-92 in a more favourable light, but reasoned argument does.
Read my posts. I made no reference to new helicopters, nor "combat yadda yadda". IIRC, the S76 (the only specific reference I made) had its tail rotor control problems after about 5-6 years in commercial service, and probably (stress probably) by then had many tens of thousands of hours fleet wide.
I fully accept that the S-92 appears a marvellous bit of kit, and wish it well. Similarly, the Merlin is a well equipped and excellent helicopter which is plagued with serviceability problems; to quote a Merlin driver on another thread
1. When it works it's bl@@dy fantastic
2. problem is, previous point isn't happening quite as often as we'd like - Although this week's Welsh landaway is going swimmingly, apparently.
2. problem is, previous point isn't happening quite as often as we'd like - Although this week's Welsh landaway is going swimmingly, apparently.
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John,
You should see what its like on this side of the pond. According to those lawyers who run Lockheed Martin and Agusta westland, if you don't have three engines, you are practically dead already!
I can't wait for this thing to be over!
I posted these brochures in the other thread, they are similar documents for each helicopter, and the performance graphs tell the story about relative performance. The big EH-101 file is the entire brochure, the smaller one has the performance pages only:
Here are the two brochures for the aircraft (with today's engines):
http://www.s-92heliport.com/H92.pdf 200K
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101.pdf This is about 5 megs
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101perfpages.pdf performance excerpt only 600K
You should see what its like on this side of the pond. According to those lawyers who run Lockheed Martin and Agusta westland, if you don't have three engines, you are practically dead already!
I can't wait for this thing to be over!
I posted these brochures in the other thread, they are similar documents for each helicopter, and the performance graphs tell the story about relative performance. The big EH-101 file is the entire brochure, the smaller one has the performance pages only:
Here are the two brochures for the aircraft (with today's engines):
http://www.s-92heliport.com/H92.pdf 200K
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101.pdf This is about 5 megs
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101perfpages.pdf performance excerpt only 600K
Lt. Gen. McCorkle Viewpoint
Nick,
Have you had a chance to respond to or receive any rebuttles to the Gen's published viewpoint? PR vs facts. Facts should rule!
Jack
Have you had a chance to respond to or receive any rebuttles to the Gen's published viewpoint? PR vs facts. Facts should rule!
Jack
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The McCorkle piece in Av Week has not yet spun out. I spoke to the editorial staff, and they are Extremely upset that McCorkle failed to tell them he is a paid consultant of Agusta Westland, and that he is on their Board of Directors.
I do have a rebuttal, but frankly, the opinion piece was so very biased, it hardly deserves any answer.
I also heard that the LM program manager wrote to every member of Congress and told them the same basic story!
It is a shame that truth has been so completely lost.
It will cost them both, in terms of their reputation in the industry. Not a big loss.
I do have a rebuttal, but frankly, the opinion piece was so very biased, it hardly deserves any answer.
I also heard that the LM program manager wrote to every member of Congress and told them the same basic story!
It is a shame that truth has been so completely lost.
It will cost them both, in terms of their reputation in the industry. Not a big loss.
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Nick, I would not worry to much about what the europeans do or don't do. There is no way that the next presidential helicopter will be anything other than something from Sikorsky. And my reason, tradition. Tradition dose count for some things.
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OK, so Sikorsky is the one politicizing the contest, Huh?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...367747,00.html
The Sunday Times - Britain
November 21, 2004
PM wants British helicopters on White House lawn
Andrew Porter, Deputy Political Editor
TONY BLAIR is seeking to capitalise on his special relationship with George Bush by urging the American president to buy British-built Westland helicopters for his Marine One fleet.
The US Navy is looking to replace its ageing fleet of helicopters that make up Marine One. They are famous throughout the world for taking a succession of presidents to and from the White House lawn.
Recognising the publicity value of taking such an iconic role, Blair lobbied for the British firm to win the contract during his private meeting with Bush in Washington this month.
He is said to have emphasised the quality of the Westland bid and its importance to British and American jobs.
Westland has attempted to Americanise its bid by offering a US-built version of EH101 helicopter — carefully renamed the US101. Its consortium is led by Lockheed Martin, the US defence contractor, and includes Bell, a US helicopter manufacturer.
The bid has attracted support from Hillary Clinton, the New York senator, because it would bring employment to New York state.
Blair believes the deal would allow the Westland plant in Somerset to be a showcase, attracting similar deals with other countries.
Bush is understood to have listened closely and is fully aware of the ramifications of the deal. However, Westland faces stiff opposition from Sikorsky, the American company that has provided Marine One aircraft for almost half a century. Its consortium, Team America, plays heavily on its US credentials.
The US Navy wants a replacement by 2008 and the bidding process is now at a crucial stage, with a decision expected early next year. Industry experts say the Westland helicopter is superior but the patriotic vote might favour Sikorsky.
The White House contract would be important enough, but there is something even bigger at stake. The winner would not only supply 23 helicopters for Marine One, it would also be regarded as a shoo-in for a much larger Pentagon order for 200 or more search-and-rescue helicopters.
The Pentagon traditionally takes its lead from the navy when buying such aircraft.
Some industry analysts believe the Pentagon deal is big enough to decide the future of the world helicopter industry. “Whichever company loses it will find it very difficult to compete in this medium-to-large military helicopter market,” said one analyst. George David, the no-nonsense chief executive of United Technologies, Sikorsky’s parent, has no doubt about its importance: “It’s win or drop dead,” he said.
Whitehall officials have also written to the Bush administration putting forward the case for Westland. Both the White House and Downing Street refused to comment on the bid last week, because it was “a commercial matter”.
http://www.s-92heliport.com/VH-92.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...367747,00.html
The Sunday Times - Britain
November 21, 2004
PM wants British helicopters on White House lawn
Andrew Porter, Deputy Political Editor
TONY BLAIR is seeking to capitalise on his special relationship with George Bush by urging the American president to buy British-built Westland helicopters for his Marine One fleet.
The US Navy is looking to replace its ageing fleet of helicopters that make up Marine One. They are famous throughout the world for taking a succession of presidents to and from the White House lawn.
Recognising the publicity value of taking such an iconic role, Blair lobbied for the British firm to win the contract during his private meeting with Bush in Washington this month.
He is said to have emphasised the quality of the Westland bid and its importance to British and American jobs.
Westland has attempted to Americanise its bid by offering a US-built version of EH101 helicopter — carefully renamed the US101. Its consortium is led by Lockheed Martin, the US defence contractor, and includes Bell, a US helicopter manufacturer.
The bid has attracted support from Hillary Clinton, the New York senator, because it would bring employment to New York state.
Blair believes the deal would allow the Westland plant in Somerset to be a showcase, attracting similar deals with other countries.
Bush is understood to have listened closely and is fully aware of the ramifications of the deal. However, Westland faces stiff opposition from Sikorsky, the American company that has provided Marine One aircraft for almost half a century. Its consortium, Team America, plays heavily on its US credentials.
The US Navy wants a replacement by 2008 and the bidding process is now at a crucial stage, with a decision expected early next year. Industry experts say the Westland helicopter is superior but the patriotic vote might favour Sikorsky.
The White House contract would be important enough, but there is something even bigger at stake. The winner would not only supply 23 helicopters for Marine One, it would also be regarded as a shoo-in for a much larger Pentagon order for 200 or more search-and-rescue helicopters.
The Pentagon traditionally takes its lead from the navy when buying such aircraft.
Some industry analysts believe the Pentagon deal is big enough to decide the future of the world helicopter industry. “Whichever company loses it will find it very difficult to compete in this medium-to-large military helicopter market,” said one analyst. George David, the no-nonsense chief executive of United Technologies, Sikorsky’s parent, has no doubt about its importance: “It’s win or drop dead,” he said.
Whitehall officials have also written to the Bush administration putting forward the case for Westland. Both the White House and Downing Street refused to comment on the bid last week, because it was “a commercial matter”.
http://www.s-92heliport.com/VH-92.htm
Last edited by NickLappos; 21st Nov 2004 at 05:30.
This intervention by British politicians is the only thing that has kept Westlands alive during the last 20 years - they are the only British helicopter manufacturer and therefore must be kept going with MoD contracts for aircraft that are not needed or wanted. It's the same deal with BAesystems - high ranking military officers retire into lucrative positions and persuade the treasury that the taxpayer should pay through the nose for shoddy products that never deliver their promised capability.
Westlands could always try making a good helicopter that does what it is supposed to rather than a mediocre one that needs political and media spin to keep it airborne.
All helicopters are good when they work - it's the period they stay working for that determines how good they are.
Westlands best products were those made under license from Sikorsky - why don't they just build the S92 in Yeovil and stop pratting around.
Westlands could always try making a good helicopter that does what it is supposed to rather than a mediocre one that needs political and media spin to keep it airborne.
All helicopters are good when they work - it's the period they stay working for that determines how good they are.
Westlands best products were those made under license from Sikorsky - why don't they just build the S92 in Yeovil and stop pratting around.
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One question I have asked before and not has not been answered.
An EH101 suffers an engine failure during take off does the flight manual advise you to land or to continue the flight to your planned destination ?.
An EH101 suffers an engine failure during take off does the flight manual advise you to land or to continue the flight to your planned destination ?.
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The Category A procedures list specifically what to do, just as in a twin. It is an emergency. The land-back distance for an EH-101 at MGW sea level standard is about 350 meters, if I remember the charts correctly.
The RFM most certainly does not say, "The spare engine has failed, be sure and have it looked at sometime in the near future."
The RFM most certainly does not say, "The spare engine has failed, be sure and have it looked at sometime in the near future."
Last edited by NickLappos; 23rd Nov 2004 at 13:34.
Amazing what you can find out from website referrals
EH-101 OEI
Don't confuse an engiine failure "OEI" with a pre-planned flight on two engines. The H-53E flight manual allows for 2 engine cruise to extend maximum range. However, it's EP for a single engine failure states that extended flight is not recommended. Once the engine fails the crew now has to flight plan for a twin not a tri-moter aircraft. i.e duel engine HIGE/HOGE performance and account for the increased H-V envelope.