US Presidential Helicopter Bid (and Result)
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100% US
Oh yeah? how quickly they forget...
"Associated Press
Immigration crackdown leads to arrests at Sikorsky
An immigration crackdown has led to the arrests of several illegal aliens working for subcontractors at Sikorsky Aircraft in Stratford. -- Seven suspects, five men and two women, were brought into U.S. District Court shortly before 9 p.m. Tuesday, charged with misusing Social Security numbers and having false alien registration cards. They were turned over to the INS after a court appearance."
"Associated Press
Immigration crackdown leads to arrests at Sikorsky
An immigration crackdown has led to the arrests of several illegal aliens working for subcontractors at Sikorsky Aircraft in Stratford. -- Seven suspects, five men and two women, were brought into U.S. District Court shortly before 9 p.m. Tuesday, charged with misusing Social Security numbers and having false alien registration cards. They were turned over to the INS after a court appearance."
212man - if only the MOD were so wide-ranging in their procurement process, as far as helicopters go we will get what Westlands can produce (either their own or under license) and stuff whether or not the aircraft is suitable for the role (SH Merlin for example). Even when we do buy American, we still go through the same 'must be a certain percentage British' rigmarole which is why our Apaches have RTM322s fitted, a process which required a new gearbox to be designed and added to both weight and fuel consumption (not to mention altering the fuselage dynamics for the gun computer).
There is no such thing as fair competition these days, politicians have seen to that by allowing themselves to be pressured (lobbied) and influenced (bought) by industry and generally interfering in a procurement process for items they do not understand.
There is no such thing as fair competition these days, politicians have seen to that by allowing themselves to be pressured (lobbied) and influenced (bought) by industry and generally interfering in a procurement process for items they do not understand.
Crab,
I agree that what you say will be true to a large degree, however I don't think anyone would seriously doubt the safety of an American product versus a British one?
Keeping jobs in country is one thing, slagging off a product as being potentially unsafe because it's not home grown is another thing entirely (not saying you say that Nick!)
I agree that what you say will be true to a large degree, however I don't think anyone would seriously doubt the safety of an American product versus a British one?
Keeping jobs in country is one thing, slagging off a product as being potentially unsafe because it's not home grown is another thing entirely (not saying you say that Nick!)
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212man,
The regulations have little to do with the safety of the item, they have to do with the safe handling of that item. When one thinks of the implications of purposeful and mistaken acts, where the world's headlines will report every problem, there is little left to chance. When the composite rotor head and blades are being laid up, who is doing it? Is the item left exposed where someone else could do something to it?
Such security is what the regulations are all about, not the safety of the basic machine.
Remember when some buffoon sat on the Queen's bed a few years ago and chatted with her? Is that guy now working in Milan or Yoevil or Stratford CT? Adherence to those regulations is one way to be sure not.
The regulations have little to do with the safety of the item, they have to do with the safe handling of that item. When one thinks of the implications of purposeful and mistaken acts, where the world's headlines will report every problem, there is little left to chance. When the composite rotor head and blades are being laid up, who is doing it? Is the item left exposed where someone else could do something to it?
Such security is what the regulations are all about, not the safety of the basic machine.
Remember when some buffoon sat on the Queen's bed a few years ago and chatted with her? Is that guy now working in Milan or Yoevil or Stratford CT? Adherence to those regulations is one way to be sure not.
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Apologies but slightly off topic
Crab
"......RTM322s fitted, a process which required a new gearbox to be designed and added to both weight and fuel consumption (not to mention altering the fuselage dynamics for the gun computer)."
What new gearbox?
What "gun computer" change?
What Bo[[ocks!
Crab
"......RTM322s fitted, a process which required a new gearbox to be designed and added to both weight and fuel consumption (not to mention altering the fuselage dynamics for the gun computer)."
What new gearbox?
What "gun computer" change?
What Bo[[ocks!
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>>>It is actually proof, ase engineer, thanks!
>>>
No it isn't! 100% except for the foreigners ain't 100%, is it!
Anyway, if the argument has come down to 100% US or else, (and as Lu Z pointed out, the present one isn't) then clearly the argument over which a/c is best for the job has been won...or lost.
"Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels ..." Samuel Johnson
So it'll come down to politics, just like things usually do...
>>>
No it isn't! 100% except for the foreigners ain't 100%, is it!
Anyway, if the argument has come down to 100% US or else, (and as Lu Z pointed out, the present one isn't) then clearly the argument over which a/c is best for the job has been won...or lost.
"Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels ..." Samuel Johnson
So it'll come down to politics, just like things usually do...
What an appropriate day....P-51 Mustang from our museum doing Jolly Rides as I sit here trapped in the office. Lets see....wasn't that an American Airframe with a British engine at first....gosh, but I do love the sound of that recip engine! The Grumman Wildcat has been growling too...cannot wait for the A-1E to roar....
Oh, well....back to work!
Oh, well....back to work!
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ase engineer,
You chose to resort to labels like patrotism, and only you do. Similarly, you use 100% when nobody else does.
Simply said, you offer no way for the US military to assure that a vital component like a rotor blade or a transmission made in Italy can meet the regulation designed to protect the security of the president. Fume and harumph all you want, it is a method of assuring security that answers the mail, and you haven't done anything but harumph. Remember that Italy has had 58 governments in 59 years, some of them Communist, and some of them in keen opposition to US policy, to the point of disallowing use of Italian airspace for US military.
Also, how come the EU has taken Italy to court because Italian markets are closed to competition, yet you think every other country should just roll over?
As far as politics go, exactly how technical was the letter from Blair to Bush reminding him of how great a buddy England is, and how much good it would do if Bush bought the EH-101. If that is not a political shot, fired at the outset of this campaign, exactly what was it?
The best aircraft won in Canada, and will win in the US, in spite of the poltical pressure from Blair and Burlisconi.
You chose to resort to labels like patrotism, and only you do. Similarly, you use 100% when nobody else does.
Simply said, you offer no way for the US military to assure that a vital component like a rotor blade or a transmission made in Italy can meet the regulation designed to protect the security of the president. Fume and harumph all you want, it is a method of assuring security that answers the mail, and you haven't done anything but harumph. Remember that Italy has had 58 governments in 59 years, some of them Communist, and some of them in keen opposition to US policy, to the point of disallowing use of Italian airspace for US military.
Also, how come the EU has taken Italy to court because Italian markets are closed to competition, yet you think every other country should just roll over?
As far as politics go, exactly how technical was the letter from Blair to Bush reminding him of how great a buddy England is, and how much good it would do if Bush bought the EH-101. If that is not a political shot, fired at the outset of this campaign, exactly what was it?
The best aircraft won in Canada, and will win in the US, in spite of the poltical pressure from Blair and Burlisconi.
Sorry SASless, but the P 51 Mustang was originally designed with an American Allison engine. It was only when refitted with the Merlin that it turned into an outstanding aircraft.
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Nick,
I neither fume nor do I harumph (is that a verb?) One of the problems of email is that when I type witty comment you can read insult, and vice versa, and when I type facts and opinions, you can read fuming and harumphing (if to harumph is OK)
So in no particular order then,
>>>You chose to resort to labels like patrotism, and only you do.
>>>
"But Sikorsky, which has supplied U.S. presidents with helicopters since 1957, has also used Lockheed Martin's overseas ties to frame the contest as a test of corporate patriotism."
by TODD DVORAK Associated Press as quoted in earlier post to this forum by a certain Nick Lappos
Not just me, then, but at least three of us!
>>>Similarly, you use 100% when nobody else does.
>>>
"There is a American firm, Sikorsky of Straford, Connecticut. that is committed to building a 100% American product. "
Syndi Holmes Magic City Morning Star
"Shouldn't the president's aircraft be 100 percent American"
maepennant.com
"It would be surprising if Sikorsky's 100 percent American bid ..."
csmonitor.com
Ah, not just me there either, eh!
"It is an honor for Vought to be a member of the VH-92 All-American team," said Vought President and Chief Executive Officer Tom Risley."
"In January 2004 Sikorsky announced the formation of the All-American VH-92 Team "
"Sikorsky, a division of United Technologies, has run advertisements in major newspapers and trade publications stressing that its team is all-American" The Hill
"a great All-American team to bring it all together" said Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky’s vice president -perhaps you know him?
OK not verbatim 100% I grant you, but "all" and if that isn't 100% what is?
and that was just 0.22 secs worth of googling (is that verb now as well?)
>>>a vital component ....meet the regulation designed to protect the security of the >>>president.
Well, according to Lu Zuckerman, they already do on the existing aircraft with high value dynamic components (is that Lu-speak for gears and blades?),
>>>it is a method of assuring security that answers the mail
>>>
That suggests that it is a requirement of the bid request documents. If so why did Westland even bother bidding? Why not put a copy of that part of the requirement up here for us all to see? or perhaps all-americanism wasn't actually asked for....
>>>and you haven't done anything but harumph
>>>
Well, pardon me!
>>>As far as politics go..... letter from Blair to Bush
>>>
Yep, that was politics, never said it wasn't, and I dare say that W has lifted the phone to Tony on the occasion as well...
And all that is apart from the rather insulting assumption, but don't worry the rest of the world is used to that from Americans (how many countries do compete in your "World Series?"), that somehow the Brits and Italians have less interest in the safety of their heads of state than you do in yours.
Harrrumpph!
Ase
I neither fume nor do I harumph (is that a verb?) One of the problems of email is that when I type witty comment you can read insult, and vice versa, and when I type facts and opinions, you can read fuming and harumphing (if to harumph is OK)
So in no particular order then,
>>>You chose to resort to labels like patrotism, and only you do.
>>>
"But Sikorsky, which has supplied U.S. presidents with helicopters since 1957, has also used Lockheed Martin's overseas ties to frame the contest as a test of corporate patriotism."
by TODD DVORAK Associated Press as quoted in earlier post to this forum by a certain Nick Lappos
Not just me, then, but at least three of us!
>>>Similarly, you use 100% when nobody else does.
>>>
"There is a American firm, Sikorsky of Straford, Connecticut. that is committed to building a 100% American product. "
Syndi Holmes Magic City Morning Star
"Shouldn't the president's aircraft be 100 percent American"
maepennant.com
"It would be surprising if Sikorsky's 100 percent American bid ..."
csmonitor.com
Ah, not just me there either, eh!
"It is an honor for Vought to be a member of the VH-92 All-American team," said Vought President and Chief Executive Officer Tom Risley."
"In January 2004 Sikorsky announced the formation of the All-American VH-92 Team "
"Sikorsky, a division of United Technologies, has run advertisements in major newspapers and trade publications stressing that its team is all-American" The Hill
"a great All-American team to bring it all together" said Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky’s vice president -perhaps you know him?
OK not verbatim 100% I grant you, but "all" and if that isn't 100% what is?
and that was just 0.22 secs worth of googling (is that verb now as well?)
>>>a vital component ....meet the regulation designed to protect the security of the >>>president.
Well, according to Lu Zuckerman, they already do on the existing aircraft with high value dynamic components (is that Lu-speak for gears and blades?),
>>>it is a method of assuring security that answers the mail
>>>
That suggests that it is a requirement of the bid request documents. If so why did Westland even bother bidding? Why not put a copy of that part of the requirement up here for us all to see? or perhaps all-americanism wasn't actually asked for....
>>>and you haven't done anything but harumph
>>>
Well, pardon me!
>>>As far as politics go..... letter from Blair to Bush
>>>
Yep, that was politics, never said it wasn't, and I dare say that W has lifted the phone to Tony on the occasion as well...
And all that is apart from the rather insulting assumption, but don't worry the rest of the world is used to that from Americans (how many countries do compete in your "World Series?"), that somehow the Brits and Italians have less interest in the safety of their heads of state than you do in yours.
Harrrumpph!
Ase
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ase engineer,
What do you expect when you spring on Nick with that "last resort of scoundrels" quote. To you this is great theory, to others, it is war.
You foolishly ask "why would Westland even bother bidding?" Wake up, Westland aren't bidding. The company that used to be Westland was eaten by the real "scoundrel", the one that won't let anyone compete on its home turf, the one that wants the US market too.
Want to know the real issues behind Sikorsky's hard fighting in the the US Marine 1 competition? Ask yourself WHY there is no longer a real British helicopter industry. Want to take a bet on how much longer Yoevil stays open after this US competition is over
What do you expect when you spring on Nick with that "last resort of scoundrels" quote. To you this is great theory, to others, it is war.
You foolishly ask "why would Westland even bother bidding?" Wake up, Westland aren't bidding. The company that used to be Westland was eaten by the real "scoundrel", the one that won't let anyone compete on its home turf, the one that wants the US market too.
Want to know the real issues behind Sikorsky's hard fighting in the the US Marine 1 competition? Ask yourself WHY there is no longer a real British helicopter industry. Want to take a bet on how much longer Yoevil stays open after this US competition is over
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ase engineer,
You are quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people when you support your argument, go discuss it with them.
RJ, you are almost exactly right, the quotes ase engineer didn't provide discuss the medium military helicopter market, and how this is really a battle for that future market.
You are quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people when you support your argument, go discuss it with them.
RJ, you are almost exactly right, the quotes ase engineer didn't provide discuss the medium military helicopter market, and how this is really a battle for that future market.
Last edited by NickLappos; 4th Oct 2004 at 02:09.
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to be pedantic the correct spelling is Yeovil ( on the river Yeo ). The US navy has in the past purchased S61 parts from Westland and Agusta .( don't think they would have ended up on the Presidential machines though ).
Nick,
How can RJ know sickum about this...here you are much closer to the situation and he has the crust to suggest you would stoop to trickery or provoke an argument over this.
RJ does make a point in his post....but I would put my money on your position as I doubt RJ can be for real when he says what he does.
I suspect a level playing field to our European friends is defined as the field of play where they own the field, both teams, and the judges. When the USA adopts some of the same procedures they get a bit squeamish.
I would suggest to RJ he listen to you more closely....and he might be the wiser for it. Think you can help him out a bit?
How can RJ know sickum about this...here you are much closer to the situation and he has the crust to suggest you would stoop to trickery or provoke an argument over this.
RJ does make a point in his post....but I would put my money on your position as I doubt RJ can be for real when he says what he does.
I suspect a level playing field to our European friends is defined as the field of play where they own the field, both teams, and the judges. When the USA adopts some of the same procedures they get a bit squeamish.
I would suggest to RJ he listen to you more closely....and he might be the wiser for it. Think you can help him out a bit?
Ottawa delays signing helicopter deal
To hear complaints from losing bidder
Lawsuit calls deal with Sikorsky `biased'
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU
OTTAWA—The federal government has agreed to hold off signing a multi-billion dollar deal for replacement helicopters until the complaints of the losing bidder have been heard in court.
AgustaWestland, an Anglo-Italian consortium, says it has been assured by the government that the deal to buy Sikorsky helicopters won't be finalized until after Oct. 26. That's when preliminary motions from the lawsuit are scheduled to be heard in court.
"We'd asked, as part of an over-all scheduling arrangement, that the government agree to do this and they did," said Gord Cameron, an Ottawa lawyer acting for AgustaWestland.
"It's significant to us," he said. "They haven't said they will award it after that."
It's not clear even whether the government would have been in a position to sign the deal over the next few weeks, given that it's still negotiating final details with Sikorsky.
But in a move that could drag out the long-delayed replacement process even longer, AgustaWestland says it expects the government to delay inking the contract until its serious allegations are "fully" aired by the federal court.
"If there's still uncertainty about the progress or outcome of the case, I would hope the government would extend it until the court had considered it fully," Cameron said.
On July 23, the federal government announced it would buy 28 Sikorsky H-92 Cyclones as its new maritime helicopters instead of the EH-101 offered by AgustaWestland. The helicopters will replace Canada's aging Sea King fleet.
AgustaWestland, which had long complained about the selection process, filed a lawsuit on Sept. 1 accusing the Liberals of deliberately skewing its choice to avoid the "embarrassment" of picking its EH-101 helicopter, which the government had rejected as an unaffordable "Cadillac" in 1993.
The lawsuit charges that the government's evaluation of the bids was "biased, unfair and contrary to the rules of the procurement."
Federal officials, including Defence Minister Bill Graham, have insisted the government will push ahead with the purchase of the Sikorsky helicopters.
But AgustaWestland is asking the Federal Court to force Ottawa to hand it the $5 billion deal or start the decade-long selection process over again.
Cameron says the government made the "right decision."
"Otherwise we would have had to deal immediately with the injunction issue which would have put a lot of strain on the court," he said.
Sikorsky spokesman Ed Steadham had no comment on the latest development but said the company is committed to have the new helicopters flying within the four-year deadline set out in the contract.
To hear complaints from losing bidder
Lawsuit calls deal with Sikorsky `biased'
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU
OTTAWA—The federal government has agreed to hold off signing a multi-billion dollar deal for replacement helicopters until the complaints of the losing bidder have been heard in court.
AgustaWestland, an Anglo-Italian consortium, says it has been assured by the government that the deal to buy Sikorsky helicopters won't be finalized until after Oct. 26. That's when preliminary motions from the lawsuit are scheduled to be heard in court.
"We'd asked, as part of an over-all scheduling arrangement, that the government agree to do this and they did," said Gord Cameron, an Ottawa lawyer acting for AgustaWestland.
"It's significant to us," he said. "They haven't said they will award it after that."
It's not clear even whether the government would have been in a position to sign the deal over the next few weeks, given that it's still negotiating final details with Sikorsky.
But in a move that could drag out the long-delayed replacement process even longer, AgustaWestland says it expects the government to delay inking the contract until its serious allegations are "fully" aired by the federal court.
"If there's still uncertainty about the progress or outcome of the case, I would hope the government would extend it until the court had considered it fully," Cameron said.
On July 23, the federal government announced it would buy 28 Sikorsky H-92 Cyclones as its new maritime helicopters instead of the EH-101 offered by AgustaWestland. The helicopters will replace Canada's aging Sea King fleet.
AgustaWestland, which had long complained about the selection process, filed a lawsuit on Sept. 1 accusing the Liberals of deliberately skewing its choice to avoid the "embarrassment" of picking its EH-101 helicopter, which the government had rejected as an unaffordable "Cadillac" in 1993.
The lawsuit charges that the government's evaluation of the bids was "biased, unfair and contrary to the rules of the procurement."
Federal officials, including Defence Minister Bill Graham, have insisted the government will push ahead with the purchase of the Sikorsky helicopters.
But AgustaWestland is asking the Federal Court to force Ottawa to hand it the $5 billion deal or start the decade-long selection process over again.
Cameron says the government made the "right decision."
"Otherwise we would have had to deal immediately with the injunction issue which would have put a lot of strain on the court," he said.
Sikorsky spokesman Ed Steadham had no comment on the latest development but said the company is committed to have the new helicopters flying within the four-year deadline set out in the contract.
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Nick,
>>>You are quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people when you support your argument
1. I quoted Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky’s vice president..
2. I quoted TODD DVORAK Associated Press , the same reporter you quoted!
Harrumph!
Ase
>>>You are quoting reporters, not Sikorsky people when you support your argument
1. I quoted Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky’s vice president..
2. I quoted TODD DVORAK Associated Press , the same reporter you quoted!
Harrumph!
Ase
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ase engineer,
Are you sure you're not a politician? Let me be more specific, since you still have trouble understanding what you said:
No Sikorsky person said what you attribute to them, you use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people.
Are you sure you're not a politician? Let me be more specific, since you still have trouble understanding what you said:
No Sikorsky person said what you attribute to them, you use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people.
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No I'm just a regular working guy. In fact I was begining to think you were the politician, always moving the subject and never accepting what the other guy says if he doesn't agree with you.
Since you were kind enough to be specific (but wrong), let me specific and simple - you accuse me this time with "No Sikorsky person said what you attribute to them, you use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people"
I rebut you with
"...and a great All-American team to bring it all together," said Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky's vice president for government business development."
quoted, not via some reporter who you quoted, or any other reporter, but directly from YOUR COMPANY'S WEBSITE.
http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,30...TI1860,00.html
OK? I don't make things up, I don't misquote people, and I don't " use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people."
Just accept that this is all a political issue and little to do with the merits or otherwise of the helicopters concerned - in fact just like most other big defence orders - and then we can off this carousel and debate more interesting things.
Harumphing over.
ase
Since you were kind enough to be specific (but wrong), let me specific and simple - you accuse me this time with "No Sikorsky person said what you attribute to them, you use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people"
I rebut you with
"...and a great All-American team to bring it all together," said Joseph Haddock, Sikorsky's vice president for government business development."
quoted, not via some reporter who you quoted, or any other reporter, but directly from YOUR COMPANY'S WEBSITE.
http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,30...TI1860,00.html
OK? I don't make things up, I don't misquote people, and I don't " use others' words and then assign them to Sikorsky people."
Just accept that this is all a political issue and little to do with the merits or otherwise of the helicopters concerned - in fact just like most other big defence orders - and then we can off this carousel and debate more interesting things.
Harumphing over.
ase