Gazelle: Flying, operating, buying
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Hmmm. Off that idea then - thanks
Owner a ex Mil machine is a nice idea with (say) 4 careful pilots who just want to fly it on a private usage permit and are careful about how they fly. (samne with a Scout).
See the Redeye gazellculator to see what it costs to own one, h-r
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Gazelle - in the US????????
I have a student who is hell bent on buying a Gazelle and bringing it into the US. He also wants to offer it to me for Commercial work but I am unsure if it certified for the US and whether or not it can be used for commercial ops or just private as in europe. can someone please advise.
Geoff
Geoff
Whistling Pigs have been here before. International Air Transport in Anchorage had some...JetFleet in Dallas had one used for IFR ATP training.
Fast, noisy (outside anyway), pretty things. Fun to fly.
Fast, noisy (outside anyway), pretty things. Fun to fly.
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I know I haveflown one in europe, great fun to fly and yes noisy as hell!!!!!!
I guess if its ex - mil it will struggle to be cerificated but am unsure, also just looking out for him spare parts access could be a nightmare.
I guess if its ex - mil it will struggle to be cerificated but am unsure, also just looking out for him spare parts access could be a nightmare.
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whether or not it can be used for commercial ops or just private as in europe.
I stand to be corrected, though.
Join Date: May 2001
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there are a few ex uk mil gazelle already in the us fury helicopters have some which the use for displays
i believe they are all on experimental cats like the uk permit to fly
there are also 341g gazelles civvy and some 342,s which can be used for pt as they are full certificate aircraft they are on the german,american,italian,hungarian,yugoslavian,and the uk registers ,that i know about there are possibly lots more
the uk ex mils use the 3n2 engine which has never been civvy certified
spares can be short but a brilliant aircraft to fly
the flying chicken leg
i believe they are all on experimental cats like the uk permit to fly
there are also 341g gazelles civvy and some 342,s which can be used for pt as they are full certificate aircraft they are on the german,american,italian,hungarian,yugoslavian,and the uk registers ,that i know about there are possibly lots more
the uk ex mils use the 3n2 engine which has never been civvy certified
spares can be short but a brilliant aircraft to fly
the flying chicken leg
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Gazelles can and have been used for commercial work in the US if you can find a civilian model - difficult and expensive but not impossible - but anyone seriously contemplating this nowadays is lying to himself. There is just no way the financial aspect of it can be made to work; JetRangers will eat your lunch.
As a personal aircraft it's a different story altogether - top choice if you can afford it!
As a personal aircraft it's a different story altogether - top choice if you can afford it!
Join Date: May 2006
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Gazelle handling tips
Hi all
Just looking for some gen on the gazelle. Not so much hand book stuff but real world experience of the a/c.
Eg is it prone to fenestron stall (if it even exists) and if so under what conditions, how effective is the fenestron at sea level and at alt, what are the general handling characteristics of the type.
Any and all stories relating to working with the gazelle that you may think would be useful to someone who may be driving one soon would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Just looking for some gen on the gazelle. Not so much hand book stuff but real world experience of the a/c.
Eg is it prone to fenestron stall (if it even exists) and if so under what conditions, how effective is the fenestron at sea level and at alt, what are the general handling characteristics of the type.
Any and all stories relating to working with the gazelle that you may think would be useful to someone who may be driving one soon would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
If you buy one with SAS (stability augmentation system) fitted you might find the yaw channel can mask the true required pedal position (this is at low speed or in the hover) - this can lead to a yaw to the left which seems not to respond to an initial input of right pedal and may lead you to believe you have a TR problem (the myth of fenestron stall). Be prepared to apply full right pedal and hold it until the yaw ceases - Aerospatiale demonstrated a recovery from more than 120 degrees per second.
SAS and stick trim do make the aircraft easier to fly and reduce cockpit workload.
When you are cranking along at IPS or MPS (intermediate and maximum pitch settings for the cruise - 13.5 and 14.5 degrees IIRC), lower the lever if you need to turn right quickly to avoid massive torque spikes and the flashing red light on the torquemeter.
Be religious in checking the fuel filler cap for security - the intake for the engine is above the fuel cap and introducing fuel to a jet engine before the combustion chamber is not healthy.
Don't break the perspex bubble - it is expensive and a bugger to refit. Don't expect it to stop birds either, at 120 kts a pigeon makes a hell of a mess of the cockpit (and the pilot).
Recovery from jackstall (and you have to be fairly brutal to induce it) is to lower the lever and reduce the severity of the manoeuvre ie unload the disc by moving the cyclic forward.
If you have dual controls fitted, make sure the LHS harness is properly secured if you are flying solo as the groin strap with the box on can flop forward and restrict aft cyclic movement.
Above all have loads of fun with it as it is a great machine to fly.
SAS and stick trim do make the aircraft easier to fly and reduce cockpit workload.
When you are cranking along at IPS or MPS (intermediate and maximum pitch settings for the cruise - 13.5 and 14.5 degrees IIRC), lower the lever if you need to turn right quickly to avoid massive torque spikes and the flashing red light on the torquemeter.
Be religious in checking the fuel filler cap for security - the intake for the engine is above the fuel cap and introducing fuel to a jet engine before the combustion chamber is not healthy.
Don't break the perspex bubble - it is expensive and a bugger to refit. Don't expect it to stop birds either, at 120 kts a pigeon makes a hell of a mess of the cockpit (and the pilot).
Recovery from jackstall (and you have to be fairly brutal to induce it) is to lower the lever and reduce the severity of the manoeuvre ie unload the disc by moving the cyclic forward.
If you have dual controls fitted, make sure the LHS harness is properly secured if you are flying solo as the groin strap with the box on can flop forward and restrict aft cyclic movement.
Above all have loads of fun with it as it is a great machine to fly.
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Thank you all for responding, great stuff to know. in response to hughes500's question, I'm not to sure I think the 341 but just out of interest what is the difference between the two. Does the gazelle have a greasing programe. Is the type aerobatically certified. Have been told that you never want the wind on your left in the hover or your heading for trouble, is the authority that bad or is this just a case of "its a hot ship so your going to hurt yourself" syndrome. I only ask because a few people seem to think that the type is somewhat tricky to master. any thoughts appreciated.
Excellent tips from Crab...straight out of the users handbook! Good advice.
This "thing" about "fenestron stall". There are several theories about the characteristics of the gazelles turning traits at very low speed [not necessarily in the hover].
The important thing to understand is:
The fenestron does 'mask' the airflow occasionally feeding into the tail rotor. It is NOT catastrophic and this is the thing to remember. What happens is the rate of turn accelerates faster than many pilots are used to and they panic expecting the a/c to rotate out of control.
IF a pilot did nothing, the a/c would initially continue to accelerate [vastly exceeding the manuals 60 degrees per second limit - if my memory serves me right]. and eventually recover.
However what most inexperienced pilots would do is probably back off with the pedal input that initiated the turn which of course would allow the rotation to continue to accelerate. The pilot then gives up and either the helo crashes from a hover (which I've seen once) or spirals slowly earthward into the deck! (which I witnessed once - A.G. - sharks practice - torque turn).
This is the recovery process: Whichever way the a/c is rapidly rotating, put in OPPOSITE pedal - LOTS of it and HOLD IT. The a/c will then recover.
Do not be put off by the excessive rotation you will be experiencing whie doing this!!!
Other than this 'dodgy' trait, the Gazelle is rapidly becoming a ferrari classic in the civvy world and IF you can afford to run it - a beautiful and rewarding machine to own.
Fully aerobatic (believe me) but obviously under normal civvy rules totally illegal.
This "thing" about "fenestron stall". There are several theories about the characteristics of the gazelles turning traits at very low speed [not necessarily in the hover].
The important thing to understand is:
The fenestron does 'mask' the airflow occasionally feeding into the tail rotor. It is NOT catastrophic and this is the thing to remember. What happens is the rate of turn accelerates faster than many pilots are used to and they panic expecting the a/c to rotate out of control.
IF a pilot did nothing, the a/c would initially continue to accelerate [vastly exceeding the manuals 60 degrees per second limit - if my memory serves me right]. and eventually recover.
However what most inexperienced pilots would do is probably back off with the pedal input that initiated the turn which of course would allow the rotation to continue to accelerate. The pilot then gives up and either the helo crashes from a hover (which I've seen once) or spirals slowly earthward into the deck! (which I witnessed once - A.G. - sharks practice - torque turn).
This is the recovery process: Whichever way the a/c is rapidly rotating, put in OPPOSITE pedal - LOTS of it and HOLD IT. The a/c will then recover.
Do not be put off by the excessive rotation you will be experiencing whie doing this!!!
Other than this 'dodgy' trait, the Gazelle is rapidly becoming a ferrari classic in the civvy world and IF you can afford to run it - a beautiful and rewarding machine to own.
Fully aerobatic (believe me) but obviously under normal civvy rules totally illegal.
Ergonomically poor design, (but then what helicopter isn't) leading to lumber problems after prolonged incarceration.
Just occasionally, the donk won't fire up. The solution used to be to get the crewman to hop out and give the engine a bit of a nudge.
Don't leave it out in the rain without some kind of cover over the rotor head, which, by design, is also the MRGB vent.
Before dropping things (such as smoke grenades) through the little message chute in the floor behind the front seats, check to make certain that nobody has fitted something in there, like a transponder.
Oh, and try to remember to open a sliding window in either front door before you slam the door shut - the seals are water- and air-tight and the sudden over-pressure has been known to do damage.
If you are going to want to move it into a hangar at some stage (and the chances are you will), be very careful when levering up, and more especially down, on the diabolo pole.
And you can't force vomit out of the rose vents in the rear doors against the airflow, but that's a pax problem.
Fenestron stall?
Yup, lad on my APC did just that.
Just occasionally, the donk won't fire up. The solution used to be to get the crewman to hop out and give the engine a bit of a nudge.
Don't leave it out in the rain without some kind of cover over the rotor head, which, by design, is also the MRGB vent.
Before dropping things (such as smoke grenades) through the little message chute in the floor behind the front seats, check to make certain that nobody has fitted something in there, like a transponder.
Oh, and try to remember to open a sliding window in either front door before you slam the door shut - the seals are water- and air-tight and the sudden over-pressure has been known to do damage.
If you are going to want to move it into a hangar at some stage (and the chances are you will), be very careful when levering up, and more especially down, on the diabolo pole.
And you can't force vomit out of the rose vents in the rear doors against the airflow, but that's a pax problem.
Fenestron stall?
However what most inexperienced pilots would do is probably back off with the pedal input that initiated the turn which of course would allow the rotation to continue to accelerate. The pilot then gives up and either the helo crashes from a hover...............
Last edited by diginagain; 14th May 2006 at 10:45.
Do make sure that your ear protection is the best. The Gazelle's Astazou engine is notoriously damaging to the the high freq spectrum of the aircrew's ears. Not helped I suppose by the fact that your ear is but a few inches from the engine!
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"Whichever way the a/c is rapidly rotating, put in OPPOSITE pedal - LOTS of it and HOLD IT. The a/c will then recover."
Don't know if I'm just being stupid here but can this happen to the left and to the right. Is the rotation a result of apparent anti torque failure and therfore only to the left, or some strange aerodynamic trait of the a/c that means that the fenestron will act as though a pedal input has been made that in fact has not, irraspective of direction? hope that I've made myself clear.
I fully accept your recovery tecnique but If the rotation is because of a stalled anti-torque system, would not holding the pedal in continue what ever proses that got it stalled in the first place?
How many rotations can one expect(In general) before full pedal gets it sorted or is this dependent on many factors.
Many thanks for the ears heads up. mine are already heading south as is.
thanks once again for all the great gen. this just the stuff that you want to have thought about before starting a conversion
Don't know if I'm just being stupid here but can this happen to the left and to the right. Is the rotation a result of apparent anti torque failure and therfore only to the left, or some strange aerodynamic trait of the a/c that means that the fenestron will act as though a pedal input has been made that in fact has not, irraspective of direction? hope that I've made myself clear.
I fully accept your recovery tecnique but If the rotation is because of a stalled anti-torque system, would not holding the pedal in continue what ever proses that got it stalled in the first place?
How many rotations can one expect(In general) before full pedal gets it sorted or is this dependent on many factors.
Many thanks for the ears heads up. mine are already heading south as is.
thanks once again for all the great gen. this just the stuff that you want to have thought about before starting a conversion
Last edited by 609FC; 14th May 2006 at 12:04.
341 has smaller engine
342 is normally sretched by 8 inches and has loads more horses !
The stretch also makes it possible to get pax in the back who are taller than 5 ft 6
Best advice make bloody sure you have a blade in the 12 o clock position on start up otherwise you will need a new blade !
342 is normally sretched by 8 inches and has loads more horses !
The stretch also makes it possible to get pax in the back who are taller than 5 ft 6
Best advice make bloody sure you have a blade in the 12 o clock position on start up otherwise you will need a new blade !
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hughes 500
normally you are so correct but the 341g comes in stretch and std the stretch was a us/can mod i dont think they ever modded a 342
you are correct about the 342 having more horses it has the ast 14 engine not the 3 a/b or the 3n [uk mil] as in the 341
normally you are so correct but the 341g comes in stretch and std the stretch was a us/can mod i dont think they ever modded a 342
you are correct about the 342 having more horses it has the ast 14 engine not the 3 a/b or the 3n [uk mil] as in the 341
"Fenestron stall" is only to the left. Well it was in my case! Slow hover taxi, decided I needed to turn left quickly, put in a bootfull of left pedal and away she went. 
Being close to the ground I pulled in some collective to get clear which of course only made it worse .
By that time I was fresh out of ideas, but luckily I had a good stick buddy who saved the day. As we were living from day to day on our pilots course, we regained our composure, went back to Wallop and never said a word to anyone.
From that day on, if ever I felt it start to go to the left if was right pedal, and dump a bit of lever(height permitting).
Being close to the ground I pulled in some collective to get clear which of course only made it worse .By that time I was fresh out of ideas, but luckily I had a good stick buddy who saved the day.
As we were living from day to day on our pilots course, we regained our composure, went back to Wallop and never said a word to anyone.From that day on, if ever I felt it start to go to the left if was right pedal, and dump a bit of lever(height permitting).